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Brit Bloggers Need Help Re Torture Docs | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

No, it is man that is inhumane (4.00 / 2)

not karma. Lynndie has already had some of her karma, being scapegoated, in prison, away from her child, and as she as barely more than a child herself, she will undoubtedly have some more of it.

However, withholding pain medication from her has in my opinion, nothing to do with karma and everything to do with a systemic culture of permissible inhumanity: the same mind-set that says it is OK to torture Iraqis says it is OK to torture someone who tortures Iraqis.

This will not have been the doing of one person, any more than Lynndie acted alone. More than one person will have been present both in transporting her to the emergency room, and more than one person will have known that she was there.

What they did was no different than what she did, no less barbaric, and should be for Americans, no less terrifying that these are the people who are charged with the task of protecting them.

If they will do it to your brother, be he Iraqi, American criminal, or Belgian shoemaker, they will do it to you.

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 11:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, it is man that is inhumane (none / 0)

Like I said Duct, she should have been rushed to the hospital and should have been taken care of right away.

However, Her being in prison, is not karma. that is justice. And in my book, she didn't get enough time. Further, we don't know if she was a direct participant in torturing people. All we know is those degrading photos we saw. And I do imagine that it is only the tip of the iceberg

I don't have pity for her nor do I feel sorry for her. However if you read the comments I posted, I dont wish anyone that kind of pain.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 06:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know you don't cruz (none / 0)

And I agree with you that her prison sentence itself is not karma, though some of her being paraded around on TV during her trial, and the babydaddy drama may have been.

JUstice? I am not sure. I keep thinking back to that interview the Australian press did with her family and friends, "That's that way girls like Lynndie was raised."

I believe that the best defense her attorneys could have presented is that she did not know she was doing anything wrong.

And there is the issue of Lynndie as sacrificial lamb.

All of this, of course, must be viewed within the context of a culture where the Abu Ghraib whistleblower's family had to go into hiding, they had so many death threats, while Lynndie has fan sites.

To save my old fingers, here is, predictably, a link to an old blogrant on the subject:

Open Letter to Lynndie England

(Of course, my advice was not taken, and the same mother who taught Lynndie is now charged with the task of imparting those same values to the baby)

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 06:12:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know you don't cruz (none / 0)

"I believe that the best defense her attorneys could have presented is that she did not know she was doing anything wrong."

That would be a good legal defense. But come on Duct... she knew she was doing something criminal. Remember at the beginning of the invasion that this administration had said that humiliating american forces was a war crime? (I think it was regarding the events that Jessica Lynch and her crew was invlolved).

She has no excuse. Further, how do we prevent these actions from ever happening again??? My responce is with long prision terms. And I dont think that she should have been the only one. I do hope that some day it will be thouroulghly investigated so those at the top will also have to face justice. And I am talking about Rumsfeld et al. That is the only way that these events will never ocurr.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 06:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well that is a tenet of exceptionalism (none / 0)

To most Americans, including Lynndie and her friends and neighbors, as well as the warlords in Washington, to do such things to Americans, soldiers or not, would be an unspeakable atrocity, yet the official investigation of the Abu Ghraib activities was compared to a popular comedy movie.

It must be said, however, that US acted swiftly to ban all cameras from all US "facilities."

I do not know that Lynndie, nor any of her comrades in atrocity believe that they were doing anything wrong.

Some may have, but again, consider the culture.

Long prison terms in the traditional sense do not in my (as usual, controversial) opinion, constitute justice.

I would rather see Lynddie, like any other criminal kept in a humane, supervised and structured setting, where they can do no further harm to others, but on the contrary, put to useful and lucrative work, trained for it if needed, and all earnings above that necessary for their basic expenses paid to their victims or their families.

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well that is a tenet of exceptionalism (none / 0)

If that is what will happen to them, then it will not be a deterent. Rather it will happen over and over again. And if that happens, then those who have been the victims of torture will be justified in taking justice into their own hands.

Suppose that the Nazis instead of tried for their crimes were sent to a rehabilitaion program. Rather than Never Again it would be Once Again.

How do we stop from this hapening again?????

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They will be unable to do it over again (none / 0)

They will be, as I said, in a supervised and structured environment. Some would be there for life.

If their rehabilitation is successful, they will not wish to do it over again. That is what rehabilitation means. :)

The victims will benefit from their rehabilitation, and hopefully, over time, the system will help people evolve from the desire to perpetuate violence and brutality by becoming a part of it themselves, and attempting to outdo those who committed crimes against them.

In the larger sense, your question, how do we stop it from happening again, in my opinion, can be answered only by the slow process of evolution, as human beings become more advanced.

Societies, including justice systems, can aid this process or impede it. I believe the current system does the latter.

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They will be unable to do it over again (none / 0)

Sounds good. Those who did commit attrocities would learn. But what about those who come in the next generation?

Oh, they tortured and ONLY got 3 years. Cake walk, so lets do it again.

That is what will happen.

I am pretty sure that you are not aware of what was published today in south american papers in regard to the military in Uruguay. So far they have been pardoned of all the crimes they commited. It is no surprise that they have issued a statement saying that the Never Again doesnt apply to them. They said that it may happen again. There is a correlation between not punishing them and believing that they can do it again.Now, those countries that have taken their military to court and to jail, they are not saying that. On the contrary, they have stated that they were wrong. They have vowed not to repeat those same mistakes.

What do you tell the family of that newborn chiled that ws grabbed by its fragile little legs and whose life was shattered against a wall and then dumped on the floor at her mothers feet. Short sentence? Rehab?

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those who do those things would get life (none / 1)

Short sentences would be for people who steal cars, rob convenience stores, etc. Not those who commit crimes against humanity.

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Those who do those things would get life (none / 1)

Yeahhhhhhhhhhh! we agree!!! :-)

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Fri Dec 30th, 2005 at 07:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Brit Bloggers Need Help Re Torture Docs | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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