Booman Tribune ~ Comments ~ Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005

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Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 | 16 comments (16 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

The Other Vote Yesterday ... (4.00 / 4)

.
DUTCH REJECT EU CHARTER 62% NO

A second founding nation of the EU Six votes NO!

A Dutch saying: "Wat een boer niet kent, vreet die niet" may explain some of the voting, but a major discontent with Europe cannot be argued away.

I am sure the geographical chart of the division will explain a lot how the Dutch voted. The same was also illustrated in the French vote.

Dutch Parliament would have voted YES 128 votes and 22 NAYs!

Europe Day -- 60 years of Peace

JP Balkenende: Press Conference after Dutch NO vote on EU Charter!

The following motivation of the Dutch NO vote will be made known to colleagues within the EU --
● Netherlands fears loss of its sovereignty
● Expansion of EU has gone too fast
● EU Brussel should not cross national policy
● Democracy of EU parliament should be greater
● Financial sacrifice of EU contribution for Dutch is too large.

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Thu Jun 2nd, 2005 at 01:47:42 PM EST

Re: Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 (4.00 / 3)

Excellent diary! Does this action/decision effectively eliminate the proposed embassy location, or can the Dutch Parliament overrule the decision?

The us state department has once again become their own worst enemy through the use of heavy handed, inconsiderate tactics. It would appear that the Dutch are in no mood for it.

Please translate the quoted adage for us mono-linguistic heathens.

the revolution will not be televised

by dada on Thu Jun 2nd, 2005 at 02:29:37 PM EST

Re: Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 (4.00 / 2)

The Foreign Office, Minister Ben Bot and the Dutch Government, could start a special administrative procedure to bypass the local government of the cities of The Hague, Wassenaar and the Province of South-Holland. It is possible they would buckle for the diplomatic pressure from the US State Department. This maneuver would block some of the legal procedures the citizens could use.

The top level managers, diplomats, lawyers and judges to the International Court can and will use their relations with the Dutch government to avoid further embarrassment for both parties. It is an open secret, Minister Ben Bot unofficially opposes the attempt of the US State Department to build their embassy in park Clingendael. In his biography I read he is a native of this neighborhood, and well known with the importance of this beautiful park for its citizens.

A Dutch saying: "Wat een boer niet kent, vreet die niet".
Translated: "What a farmer doesn't know, he won't consume".
Or implied in election --
The Dutch want a thorough knowledge of the issue, or they won't approve it.

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Thu Jun 2nd, 2005 at 03:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks... (none / 0)

Hopefully, this will stand.

Peace

the revolution will not be televised

by dada on Thu Jun 2nd, 2005 at 03:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dutch reject EU Constitution ¶ What Now? (none / 1)

.
This is a news flash from the:

Dutch reject EU Constitution
by whataboutbob ◊ Wed Jun 1st, 2005

It appears the Dutch have rejected the EU Constitution in their just completed referendum, 62% (no) to 38% (yes)...it seems people are feeling the process is moving too fast, or are concerned that it just isn't that good a deal for the Dutch people...

Let's see what happens next, and what it all means.

Anger and the European EU votes
by whataboutbob ◊ Thu Jun 2nd, 2005

EU nations to continue ratification process of EU constitution

BBC NEWS -- What the EU constitution says
A constitution for the European Union was agreed in Brussels on June 18, 2004.

BBC VIDEO -- EU Charter Vote

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Thu Jun 2nd, 2005 at 09:25:49 PM EST

Thank you, Oui! (4.00 / 2)

I appreciate your adding my diaries here...especially since I think we haven't held the same views on this EU constitution business (though I do acknowledge I am still very much learning, and have a steep learning curve ahead, before I more fully understand the intracacies of European politics...so my views are subject to influence!).

I found this link the other night that I think is interesting, on the BBC page about the Dutch vote, that touches on the "what next" question:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4596005.stm

And in looking at one of your links here, I also found an interesting article about a French teacher who created a "non" blog for the French vote that was apparently quite influential...no only on the vote, but in establishing blogging as a challenge to the "political elites":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4603883.stm

I found this quote of the blogger of interest (from the above BBC article):
"He took issue with the 66,000 word constitution saying that it would be difficult to amend and that it did not lay out the separation of powers between agencies."

After all that has occurred in France and Holland this week, I have heard a lot of doom-saying and negativity about where things will go now...but...
I myself have great faith in the Europeans...I think it is entirely possible to make a constitution that is more responsive to the people...I don't think this process is over yet, let's give it chance, I think we may be surprised!!

Visit The European Tribune

by whataboutbob on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 02:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, Oui! (none / 1)

.
Especially opposing views too - would also be linked! Is no problem.

Keeps discussion moving with exchange of ideas. Your conclusion on Dutch EU vote was quite positive: a kick in the ass for the bureaucrats of Brussel.

In my personal opinion, before the EU Charter was signed in June 2004, the discussion was finished and the compromises reached. Seems everyone forgot or was preoccupied to notice a lengthy and difficult road to this document.

I find it a failure of Dutch parliament and the media for failed coverage, especially after EU Election 2004, all persons did promise to spend more time on EU impact on national issues. This didn't happen, so everyone was in shock today, that a year ago this document was finalized.

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 06:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

People vs politicians (none / 0)

Seems like that is where the break is. How to bridge that gap? Not sure how this would work exactly, but one commenter on DKos suggested a two part referendum...one on accepting a one page Constitution, then one (or a several) vote(s) on parts of another document that would spell out how things worked. Give the people their say in this...it will last longer and have more power if the people buy into it. And build in a system of checks and balances, more representation, etc.

Visit The European Tribune

by whataboutbob on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 06:27:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

groot nieuws! (none / 1)

but that denhaag.com site crashed my browser. Pop-ups and Flash and pop-ups, oh my!

I'd love to go back sometime.

All great truths begin as blasphemies – George Bernard Shaw

by subtropolis on Thu Jun 2nd, 2005 at 11:19:34 PM EST

Re: groot nieuws! (none / 0)

.
I have NO problem whatsoever!

A beautiful moving panoramic view of The Hague on top of home page. Especially the painting of Jan Vermeer, the Queen's Golden Coach, International Peace Palace and "het Binnenhof" - Dutch Parliament buildings.
(Macromedia Flash Player)

But usually I do link quickly to another site. Sorry for your troubles.

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 12:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: groot nieuws! (none / 1)

i guess it was just the particular path i took through the site. I ended up at the Scheveningen site with 3 windows open, then the 'explore...' links refused to show the image, then... browser go away :-(

When i said i wanted to go back, i meant Den Haag, the city, BTW. BEAUTIFUL! As is pretty much all of Netherlands that i saw.

I fondly remember swimming on Labour Day weekend. Yahoo!

All great truths begin as blasphemies – George Bernard Shaw

by subtropolis on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 08:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Activist Community Group: (none / 1)

Portion of letter to Ambassador Sobel -- [click on Aktueel » ]

To our utmost dismay, on the 2nd of May 2005 the Mayor of The Hague, Mr. W.J. Deetman, informed us that on your own initiative you announced to the city officials that the only acceptable new location for the American embassy is the estate Clingendael.

In our opinion this is a dictate rather than a cooperative effort to find a mutually agreeable solution.

According to the Mayor the only promise you made was that, if the Dutch authorities might find an alternative location that suited all your requirements, you would consider it. A simple "no" from your side, however, would amount to the definite choice for Clingendael.

CC. Forwarded to --

Condoleezza Rice - Secretary of State
▪ View opportunities and information on Iraq Jobs. [sic]

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 12:58:02 AM EST

Re: Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 (none / 1)

Cheers to the citizens of The Hague!
Power to local democracy.

There is a similar debate going on in Norway. The current US Embassy is situated very centrally - close to the royal palace - but looking more and more as a fortress.
Note the concrete barriers half-way into the street.
A new plot was purchased a few kilometres outside the city centre, but is now meeting fierce resistance from the inhabitants in the area. A recent poll indicates that 2/3 of Oslo's inhabitants are against the embassy moving to any site close to residences or common free areas.
Apart from the 'not-in-my-neighborhood' sentiments, there are also indications that the site has archeological intrerest. Finds from the iron age have been made and a waiver from the 'Cultural Heritage Law' is needed to proceed with any type of activity on the site.
A hearing was organized on 19 April 2005 and the resistance against the project was manifest. A spokesperson for the embassy gave the ultimatum that the embassy will remain where it is if not allowed at the new site.
"After 7 years of search, review of 30 potential sites, thousands of hours and dollars of effort, the site at Huseby is the only remaining alternative".

Looks like the inhabitants of Oslo will be stuck with the current eyesore behind barricades for years to come.

by ask on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 09:41:28 AM EST

Re: Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 (none / 1)

Interesting article commenting on the impact of the negative Dutch vote on the future of the EU's new constitutional treaty from The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,1497012,00.html

Essentially calling it DOA, and questioning the desirability/intelligence of proceeding with future referendums planned in Denmark, Poland, Ireland and the Czech Republic as well as GB.

the revolution will not be televised

by dada on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 11:44:01 AM EST

The Guardian -- Don't Jump To Conclusions (none / 0)

GUARDIAN -- Don't jump to conclusions

The French and Dutch voted "NO" for lots of different reasons ◊ Martin Kettle

Here's my take. Many in Europe have not yet woken up to the changed, challenging but better world created by the end of the cold war. This goes for Western Europe's politicians as well as its voters. On Europe's left and the right, there is a yearning for a politics that will make the perceived problems of the post-cold war era - market forces for some, black people for others - go away. Some of Europe's politicians occasionally imply that bits of this might be possible. But it is not.

In the aftermath of the death of communism, referendums provide an ideal weapon for backlash politics of the sort that we have seen this week. But these referendums are not the foundations of a serious alternative or a new kind of politics. They are a warning that Europe's politicians have failed to give Europe's anxious citizens an overarching explanation of how governments can help to manage their place in the globalized market economy of the post-cold war era. With the death of the EU constitution, they will simply have to go back and try again, because this is still the only game in town.

With these statements, I can concur. The politicians should have been handed a YELLOW card, the referendum didn't provide any INFO on voter motivation, but should have been extended with a few questions to illustrate this. The only option was a RED card - an unqualified NO to parliament and the Dutch cabinet. The Dutch citizens have been reaping the benefits of the EU for decades, facing the challenges of the fallen Berlin wall, it could not define its responsibility to an expanding European Union. The Dutch were just to relaxed, multiple holidays each year spent in low-cost vacation destination: Turkey!

Oui - Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

by Oui on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 12:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 (none / 0)

oops, sorry, wrong thread...

the revolution will not be televised

by dada on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 11:46:38 AM EST

Beautiful Dutch Democracy ¶ June 1, 2005 | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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