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The Immigration Crisis | 40 comments (40 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Sonora (none / 0)

is a beautiful state with a rich history. It used to be a lot bigger but the U.S. bought off a good chunk of it with the Gadsden Purchase and the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

You come at this issue with a clear sense of nationalism on the U.S. side. There is just as strong of a feeling on the other side of the border amongst Mexicans. Manifest Destiny didn't just affect Native Americans, it also resulted in the cutting of Mexico's territory by half its size. Why just Sonora? Let's also claim Sinaloa and Baja California too while we're at it. (sarcasm)

To prove a point that this is economically driven, why isn't there much screaming about the Canadian border being fortified the same way as the Mexico border?

We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit - Octavio Paz / Latino Político

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 09:14:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

warning:Big snark (4.00 / 2)

because the Canadians for the most part don't have brown skin.

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

by alohaleezy on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 01:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: warning:Big snark (none / 1)

Trusth is stranger than... PDF

Seems there a lots of illegal Candians here in the U.S.- and unlike most Latin American immigrants- Canadian illegals do take white collar jobs.

If you seek peace and fulfilment rather than wealth and power you must take up the reins of government or else you will be ruled by tyrants

by Cicero on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 06:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sonora (none / 0)

Well I wouldn't suggest that the U.S. should "claim" Sonora (or any other state).

Obviously the reason that there's no "screaming" about the Canadian border is that most Canadians are happy with Canada, and don't want to come down here.

Just for calibration, it's estimated that there are about 10 million Mexican natives living permanently in the U.S., about half undocumented.
http://www.mexidata.info/id350.html

The entire population of Mexico is just over 100 million, so around 5% of the ENTIRE POPULATION OF MEXICO is living in undocumented status in the U.S.

That's a big problem.

by asdf on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 10:06:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm trying to understand (none / 0)

what you would define as a problem. If the 5% of Mexicans you referenced were to return all-at-once the agriculture and hospitality industries in the American Southwest would collapse, causing a huge economic problem here in the U.S. There are also national implications with the immediate loss of Social Security and Medicare remittances--a vast majority of them still pay taxes even though they are undocumented.

That would be the problem, in my opinion.

Out of curiosity, what part of the U.S. do you live?

We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit - Octavio Paz / Latino Político

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 10:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm trying to understand (none / 0)

I live in the southwest, although I'm not sure exactly what that has to do with it. The northeast, for example, has related--although smaller--problems with undocumented European immigrants. For example, there are an estimated 5000 illegal Irish workers in Boston.

The problem is obvious, as you suggest: In order to provide the benefits of citizenship, immigration needs to be done on a legal basis. That's not happening.

by asdf on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 11:26:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (none / 0)

The reason I ask is because environment has a lot to do with how we view issues. I lived for a few years in Oklahoma; the immigration debate will have different focuses in a place like that than in Tucson.

So how does the policy move forward? (this is to everyone)

In my opinion, the McCain-Kennedy bill is a great starting point, but there is such a huge negative reaction to any talk of an amnesty program that we are getting nowhere.

So thoughts?

We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit - Octavio Paz / Latino Político

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Wed Jun 22nd, 2005 at 11:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

economic argument (none / 1)

I don't think you can make that economic argument. Undocumented contributions on minimum or less than minimum wages to Social Security and Medicare do not balance the cost of health care and education, let alone the cost of public services. An expanding population means expanding public services and greater demand on existing resources.

If the 5% of undocumented workers left, the agriculture and hospitality industries would not collapse. They would be forced to increase wages and prices. Increased wages translates into increased buying power and increased contributions through taxes.

The economic argument benefits the corporations who are more than willing to exploit labor. Low wages and few rights. A fair trade? No. Not only is it unfair to the labor being exploited, it's unfair to the existing labor pool and the public who pays for the increased cost of services.

The goal is not to keep people out, it's to bring them in. I believe it is much better to vastly improve legal immigration. We want citizens, full participants in this big democracy, not workers with less than the rights of other workers. For workers from any region who want to work but not become citizens, we should have healthy work visa policies. Why not let the democracy work through inclusion rather than exclusion?

by debraz on Thu Jun 23rd, 2005 at 06:29:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Immigration Crisis | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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