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Max Baucus is a Punk | 41 comments (41 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Bad headline imo... (none / 1)

...and we got treated to the same thing on dKos, MLW and here. Is it productive? Conducive to effective activism? Makes our case better?

This kind of "outrage" is empty calories x20.

I'm shocked, shocked that some Democrats are voting for Roberts.

Fwiw, the time to make phone calls would have been months ago. Read over the comments in the diaires I wrote then on dKos. I wrote this diary on July 24th on dKos and this one on Aug 17th.

From the comments it hardly sounds like us Democrats were gearing up to put pressure on our Senators to vote no on Roberts. Hardly sounds like we are unified on Choice.

What did we do to pressue Baucus over the last two months? What did we do to build our case?

And when Armando, who has had the bully pulpit on this indulges in this rhetoric too...where does that get us?

In Eminem's video for MOSH he could have made his point by simply saying..."George Bush is a Punk"...and it would have been much less effective, and easy to dismiss.

Fwiw, there's a better way. We need to find it.

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 11:57:28 AM EST

Months ago (4.00 / 2)

you mean when Reid was telling everyone to shut up and to wait until September.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 12:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Parker (none / 0)

I appreciate your constant naysayer voice.

But at what point do you make a positive point? When do you look for the other way, not just the negative?

We all know that Reid has zero control over your opinion or voice. So what do YOU think? Spell it out...

I've laid out an idea below. What's your proposal?

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 02:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Parker (none / 0)

your constant naysayer voice

Don't try and punk me Kid...

This was decided not today but when LIEberman tied the hand of the Demcratic party with a neutered filibuster.

What is happening today is what was expected ...they are just trying to cover their asses as much as possible... Reid sold out months ago... this was just the Kubuki dance

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 03:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To be frank... (none / 0)

I am trying to do no such thing.

If anything, you've created the context for how people view your points and arguments, which are often potent, more than I ever could.

Cynicism can be bring a healthy dose of rebellion and skepticism to the table, or it can be a poison that is merely all NO all the time.

In my view, people come together around no and yes.

We can do better than this.

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 04:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To be frank... (4.00 / 3)

Sure, maybe we can do better. But it's an uphill battle when we're repeatedly kicked in the teeth for our "pet issues."

The fact is that Parker and many other women have been writing about Roberts since he was named. But there was a LOT of resistance to that, from apathy to aggressive hostility towards (once again) "pet issues."

Then, at the last minute, others find Jeebus and not only get on the bandwagon, but claim to be leading it.

And then berate us for not joining in loud enough or early enough. What are we? Invisible?

The positive message is that we rally around our fundamental rights, leaving nobody behind. Some would have us believe that this means conflict. But human rights and civil rights are not mutually exclusive. It's not a zero sum game. We can all stand together around our progressive and liberal (and for some even conservative) values to push for bringing the Democratic Party back to leading the country for justice, rather than nipping at the heels of the radicals in Washington.

Yet on other boards (and thankfully not here) this message has been dismissed, attacked and denigrated, and those of us who've argued for our rights, for everyone's rights, have been accused of "hurting the party" -- as if they owned the Party and we were the outsiders.

And when they are the ones with the big megaphones and six-figure ad revenues and elbows rubbing with DC insiders, it becomes a little bit like their Goliath vs. our little David.

And I'm sorry, Golaith does not take any questions.

media girl

by media girl on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 05:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Strong words... (none / 0)

The positive message is that we rally around our fundamental rights, leaving nobody behind. Some would have us believe that this means conflict. But human rights and civil rights are not mutually exclusive. It's not a zero sum game. We can all stand together around our progressive and liberal (and for some even conservative) values to push for bringing the Democratic Party back to leading the country for justice

and well said.

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 07:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you have (4.00 / 2)

a better word for Baucus?

I'm sure you do.

But, to me, he deserves the disrespect. Maybe he will get weary of being disrespected by Democrats and change his ways. Maybe he lose his mind and become another Zell 'Spitball' Miller. Frankly, I don't care. He needs a primary challenger. We deserve better. And as I point out, this is about a pattern of appeasement, not just Roberts,

by BooMan on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 12:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you have a better word? (none / 0)

I do but I don't swear - often.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 01:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My take would be... (none / 0)

to do a straight up roll call of those on the record as "nos" and those one the record as "yes" votes. And start from there.

Looking down the road, which is your job, Booman, would tell you that there are going to be yes votes.

How do we constructively build pressure? By exhorting people to call based on a playground insult...??? If the blogs are to be a "wide coalition" and a "big tent"...how come our rhetoric sounds like AM sports radio?

Calling someone a "punk" is so easy and cheap...and imo it cuts off so much of the smart, savvy strategic things we could do.

Start with a roll call. Build it with a look at the voting records of those voting "yes." Take a look to see if they are up for reelection and have primary opponents.

And then use the power of the pen to build a progressive consensus of those opposed to Roberts.

We need that consensus. And you want folks like me and others in it...wriiting intelligent pieces and working side by side.

Enough of the AM Radio stuff as the top headline on the front page. It's empty calories. And imo, pushes folks away for the sake of a single day's screaming.

Trust me, there will be a large number of "yes" votes. Do we call them all punks, or do we get constructive and clever? I know where I come down.

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 02:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bad headline imo... (none / 1)

From the comments it hardly sounds like us Democrats were gearing up to put pressure on our Senators to vote no on Roberts. Hardly sounds like we are unified on Choice.

What did we do to pressue Baucus over the last two months? What did we do to build our case?

Question: how can you gauge who pressured the Dems ie. who sent letters, faxes, made phone calls etc to urge them to oppose Roberts? Comments on a blog aren't enough to provide a realistic picture.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 01:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Valid point... (none / 1)

we don't. But, imho, the response to those diaries spoke worlds to me.

What message does it send to write: "Max Baucus is a punk" coupled with a list of phone numbers to call?

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 01:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Valid point... (4.00 / 3)

there are two points. Number one, to clog up Baucus's phonelines so he knows people are paying attention and are prepared to hold him accountable, and number two, to treat disrespect with disrespect.

I don't have any respect for Senator Baucus. He continually provides cover for the GOP on close votes that hurt people. Look at the votes I pointed out: bankruptcy, mercury, tobacco, and torture.

Like I said, this is about more than Roberts.

by BooMan on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 03:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Disagree... (none / 0)

and quite frankly, booman, you need to show better leadership.

Treat "disrespect" with "disrespect?"

By clogging phone lines and calling someone "a punk?"

Are we on the schoolyard playground here?

That rhetoric and strategy erodes the valid points you make. I expect better from this site.

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 03:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll try (4.00 / 2)

to live up to your expectations k/o.

How about this? How about Max Baucus starts treating us with seriousness and respect? How about he starts taking a moment to ponder the effects of mercury, tobacco, and no-forgiveness bankruptcy on children?

Maybe he will find that people return his thoughtfulness and respect for decency with the same.

There is a place for thoughtful writing and strategic thinking, and then there is ruining the guy's day to make a few points about his putting his large contributers ahead of regular folks that need to breath the air, drink the water, and don't care to associate themselves with torture.

by BooMan on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 03:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disagree... (none / 0)

I've read most of your comments ko and, from what I can gather, you're opposed to the use of the word "punk" (or perhaps name calling in general?) and you think that Booman is wrong to suggest not respecting a senator who has been on the wrong side of some important issues.

I'm all for positive vibrations etc however, I do not give respect to those who have not earned it and that's what elected officials need to do - earn it.

What am I missing here?

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 05:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My take is (none / 0)

that calling someone a "punk" and then publishing phone numbers to call is counter productive.

In my view, if you do that, you take one of the most powerful things we can do...ie. coordinate our opposition to something with phone calls and letters and turn it instead into an excercise in venting that could have truly messed up consequences. ie. folks who call and run their mouths in uncool ways without thinking of the consequences.

Personally, I think the blogs have gone way off base into the realm of juvenile attacking and cursing..I'd like to see us come back to the art of politics and persuasion.

Of couse we're mad. Everybody is. But what's the point then? Calling and blowing off steam? Group therapy?

Sorry but I disagree with this approach. More effective would be how to incorporate this criticism into the free speech protest on Sept. 24th in a way that gets media attention.

That would be a smart idea imo.

k/o

by kid oakland (kidoakland<AT>comcast<DOT>net) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 07:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My take is (4.00 / 2)

I understand your perspective, however:

Do you really think people are just going to call Baucus' office, call him a punk and not voice their concerns? Do you think blog readers are really that juvenile? I don't. I've seen some damn powerful coordination of opposition online.
Ever since the dawn of politics, people have been encouraged to voice their opinions to those in power in whatever way they could. Why should protesting be the only acceptable forum left when we have so much instant technology at hand? And, how many people can or do participate in live protests? And, how much media coverage do these protests get these days? We're in the midst of two hurricanes. Sept 24th's protest may turn out to be nothing more than a blip on CNN's crawl.

Methinks thou dost protest Booman's writings too much.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Wed Sep 21st, 2005 at 10:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Max Baucus is a Punk | 41 comments (41 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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