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Iranian Conference on the Holocaust | 27 comments (27 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Mirror mirror on the wall (none / 1)

Ahmadinejad's holocaust denials are nothing but a smokescreen & totally irrelevant to today's confrontation with Iran. The only reason to highlight & harp on his foolish remarks is to further demonize & dehumanize the Iranian people, a task accomplished through language that becomes unquestioningly repeated. Resisting that 'group think' vocabulary is one of the more important taks beofre us now. Understanding the cultural (& domestic political) context in which his remarks are made is important; debating whether or not the holocaust occurred is mere diversion.

Lang's words here are instructive --not for the snide "analysis" -- but for what they reveal about an institutional & cultural Jungian shadow, disgusted by the sight in the Other of what is known, but denied, to reside within U.S.:

Many people in "the region" see life as essentially an us versus them, zero sum game in which the "other" is felt to be altogether alien, enemy and hostile. Not all people feel that way, but many do. For folk with that mentality the actions of the other must always be seen as motivated from the same kind of exclusivist hostility that they feel themselves. This is mirror imaging with a vengeance.

Wonderful, brief psychological analysis of the country which presents the pre-emininent threat to world peace today.

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky

by Arcturus on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 08:53:57 PM EST

Re: Mirror mirror on the wall (2.50 / 2)

OK, so the leader of a soon-to-be nuclear power denies that the holocaust ever happened and pledges to wipe Israel all the map, and you think we should just shrug our shoulders and say it's just a smokescreen.

Of course, you are correct that domestic politics play a role in these remarks. Extreme anti-Israel rhetoric has long been useful to Mideast leaders to divert attention from the failures of their regimes. Maybe the remarks can be dismissed as empty rhetoric, but imminent membership in the nuclear club gives such remarks their ominous character.

We've been through this before, a madman coming to power with an extreme anti-Semitic agenda and the military means to implement it. I don't want to go there again.

I don't know if Ahmadinejad is a madman, I don't know if he means what he says. But I am doubly disturbed, first by the remarks themselves and second by the ease with which they are being dismissed here.

by JLG on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 09:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mirror mirror on the wall (none / 1)

The all or nothing acceptance conditions you offer make it difficult to support what you are trying to promote. I think you might be misunderstanding or misrepresenting what many of us are trying to say.

by rumi on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 02:42:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

madmen & smokescreens (none / 1)

Imminent? Not according to the nuclear experts. They are at least 5-10 years away.

The constant repetition of epithets like "madman" is more dangerous than any of Ahmadinejad's speeches, however odious they are.

Examine closely Iran's stance in the world & one discovers that they have followed a pragmatic line, not an ideological one, depsite the revolutionary rhetoric. Iran does not have a history of military aggression against its neighbors. The notion that Iran might launch a nuclear first-strike is absurd; reason says a nuclear capability would serve as a deterrent much as it has elsewhere in the world.

Here's an example of the smokescreen. A Jan. 12, 2006 article in Bloomberg ends with this sentence:

Concerns that Iran may develop nuclear capabilities intensified following comments last year by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in which he called for the eradication of Israel and denied the existence of the Nazi Holocaust.

What on earth is the logic in that sentence?

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky

by Arcturus on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 01:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: madmen & smokescreens (none / 1)

<<Concerns that Iran may develop nuclear capabilities intensified following comments last year by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in which he called for the eradication of Israel and denied the existence of the Nazi Holocaust.<p> What on earth is the logic in that sentence?>>

I don't see what your problem is with that sentence. Recent statements of Ahmadinejad have called into question (a) whether Iran is as committed to non-aggression as you contend and (b) whether Ahmadinejad himself has any grip on reality.

Perhaps Ahmadinejad is a pragmatist who spouts an ideologically charged line for the political boost it gives him at home. That's the most sanguine view, and it may well be the correct one. But I can't shrug off his statements, and I don't think it's illogical that those statements have amplified concerns about Iran's intentions in developing nuclear weapons.

But examine further your statement that Iran wants the weapons purely for defensive purposes. Isn't that an odd sort of posture since it is the very development of the weapons that is opening up the possibility of an attack? If their primary concern is in not being invaded, wouldn't the obvious step be to dismantle the program?

I would also question your assertion that we have 5-10 years. That's one opinion. Other experts have said it may be a matter of months. I seem to recall that when new nations enter the nuclear club (and it's been a while), it is always accompanied by expressions of surprise from experts who had thought that China or India or Pakistan was X years away from a functional weapon.

by JLG on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 04:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think it is has already been mentioned here (none / 1)

in at least one diary, but you can google the phrase "Iranian bourse euro"

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 04:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think it is has already been mentioned here (none / 1)

Thanks. With all the talk of smokescreens, it would have been useful for Arcturus to give some hint of what the smokescreens were supposed to be hiding.

by JLG on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 04:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

knock it off (none / 1)

Listen, you're free to disagree, but this doesn't need turn personal.

Sorry if the dots weren't connected well enough. The 'smokescreen' is the raising of irrelevant issues, manipulating people's emotions, & demonizing the Iranians (through the personhood of the president, just as was done with Noriega, Hussein, & now Chavez) in order to force a situation where we can force sanctions through the UN or use military aggression against a country that has done nothing.

Equating Ahmadinejad's racism & even his calls for Israel to be wiped off the map (which despite all efforts by the Western media does not equate to a call to attack & btw, is nothing new, having been official policy ever since the 1979 revolution) with a heightened nuclear threat, as did the Bloomberg article I quoted, has no inherent logic. At a time when my country is openly threatning a nuclear first strike, it is imperative to challenge the validity of such truisms as Pat Lang expressed here the other day & that clutter our media everywhere that the world can not afford a nuclear armed Iran.

We can not "afford" a nuclear war.

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky

by Arcturus on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 05:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: madmen & smokescreens (none / 0)

Recent statements of Ahmadinejad have called into question (a) whether Iran is as committed to non-aggression as you contend

There have been promises of retaliation if Iran is attacked by either Israel or the US; Iran has not threatened its neighbors nor will you find any news reports of such.

and (b) whether Ahmadinejad himself has any grip on reality.

I've made my position clear as to this kind of inflammatory, racist rhetoric being used to beat the drums of war.

Isn't that an odd sort of posture since it is the very development of the weapons that is opening up the possibility of an attack? If their primary concern is in not being invaded, wouldn't the obvious step be to dismantle the program?

There is no evidence that Iran is currently developing weapons, nor is that why they are being threatened today. They have a legal right to enrich uranium. Would they like them? Sure, and I doubt they won't eventually restart their weapons program. They are surrounded by nuclear states: Pakistan, India, Russia, Israel -- & now the US in Iraq & Afghanistan. MAD has been embraced by many supposedly rational actors; why should that be such a crazy desire for Iran?

Al usual, however, the real reasons driving current hostilities have nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Ductape's pointer towards the Iranian bourse, scheduled to come on line in March, might be a better place to turn your concern.

I would also question your assertion that we have 5-10 years. That's one opinion.

No, that's the shared opinion of the world's nuclear proliferation experts.

Other experts have said it may be a matter of months.

Not outside Israel. And they have zero credibility on this issue.

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky

by Arcturus on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 05:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: madmen & smokescreens (2.00 / 2)

There are smokescreens and there are rose colored glasses.

<<Iran has not threatened its neighbors nor will you find any news reports of such.>>

No, there have only been threats to wipe Israel off the map. I guess since the two nations don't touch each other there is no threat against a "neighbor."

<<There is no evidence that Iran is currently developing weapons>>

This is beginning to sound like the Daily Worker writing about Stalin in the 1930s.

<<I've made my position clear as to this kind of inflammatory, racist rhetoric>>

I haven't said anything racist. I have been under the impression that we have been discussing the remarks of one individual (highly inflammatory and anti-Semitic remarks, but they don't seem to bother you much), an individual who, as it happens, is of the same race as I am (unless Iranians or Muslims have acquired the status of race). I resent your making such an accusation.

My main motivation for originally posting in this thread was to correct a misstatement about Turkey and the Armenian genocide. The powerful undertow of Mideast politics has dragged me far afield into a discussion that has become more acrimonious than I would have liked. Well, I've said my say and don't feel the need to post anymore here, but I would appreciate it if you'd take back the bit about racism.

by JLG on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 05:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iranian Conference on the Holocaust | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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