Booman Tribune





Find textbooks at Alibris!

NOTE: Overstock bests Amazon's prices and is "blue."

THE BOOKS WITH "BUZZ":
______________

Learn the real story behind the WMD in Iraq:

The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism
by Ron Suskind

Read Barack Obama's vision for America:

The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream
by Barack Obama

DaveW recommends:

I Am a Strange Loop
by Douglas Hofstadter

Need some laughs?

I Am America (and So Can You!)
by Stephen Colbert

rae recommends:

Dark Ages America: The Final Phase of Empire
by Morris Berman.

On BooMan’s shelf:

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln
by Doris Kearns Goodwin

This looks interesting:

Adventure Divas
by Holly Morris

Here’s a good one from
Elizabeth Gilbert:

Eat Pray Love
by Elizabeth Gilbert

"Crash" * Best Motion Picture, Academy Awards * Only $11.79 at Overstock * 2006 SAG Winner, Best Ensemble

Check out
Powell's new section:
NEW FAVORITES

Selected new arrivals at 30% off

Recommended by Indianadem and ejmw:
The Conscience of a Liberal
by Paul Wellstone

From northcountry’s bookshelf:

The New Golden Age:
The Coming Revolution Against
Political Corruption and Economic Chaos
by Ravi Batra

A novel about contractors in Iraq from the woman that runs The Spy That Billed Me:

Outsourced: A Novel
from RJ Hillhouse.


SOTW-120x90
Download Sleeper Cell on iTunes (Better than "24") Download Weeds on iTunes (Hilarious 1/2-hour adult comedy starring Mary-Louise Parker) Download Late Nite with Conan O'Brien on iTunes
John Belushi - SNL
Download South Park on iTunes
Verve Vault

James Hunter - People Gonna Talk:
James Hunter - People Gonna Talk
icon


Great Deals
----- * ^ * -----

Find mystery novels by Nancy Pickard ("Kansas")



Challenging Empire: How People, Governments, and the UN Defy US Power by Phyllis Bennis (interviewed on DN!)


Featured by Keith Olbermann, New (Powell's Sale): Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum (whose other books merit serious consideration)


"Explosive" State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration
by James Risen


The book the CIA doesn't want you to read: Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA's Key Field Commander
Larry Johnson's review


BT's all-time best seller:

PERMACULTURE:
A Designers' Manual

$79.95 * Sale: $59.95


Unequal Sisters: A Multicultural Reader in U.S. Women's History (Third Edition)


The Undercover Economist: Exposing Why the Rich Are Rich, the Poor Are Poor And Why You Can Never Buy a Decent Used Car!


The Worst Hard Time: The Untold Story of Those Who Survived the Great American Dust Bowl
by Timothy Egan


Green Press Initiative
----- * ^ * -----


Journalistas: 100 Years of the Best Writing and Reporting by Women Journalists by Eleanor Mills * NYT review


Bury Me Standing: the Gypsies & Their Journey


1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus



Brokeback Mountain
by Annie Proulx
----- * ^ * -----
Check out Powell's
"At The Movies"


Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World by Noam Chomsky (Power & Terror: Post 9-11 Talks)


The Price of Privilege:

How Parental Pressure and
Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of
Disconnected and Unhappy Kids

by Madeline Levine


Save 35-70% on
name brand clothing,
footwear, and outdoor gear
at SierraTradingPost.com

:





We listened to PEN American Center's "State of Emergency" and found 1940s books by Curzio Malaparte only at Alibris. (Selection (MP3) excerpted from "The Skin.")

Alibris - Books You Thought You'd Never Find
Banned Books * Are you a fan of Film Noir, Art House, Documentaries or Hong Kong Action? * Searching for a long-lost children's book or a first printing of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue on vinyl? Find it at Alibris!

:
:
www.Patagonia.com


Display:
I shouldn't even be opening my mouth here, but here we go.  Let me preface my comments by saying I do not support hate speech or hateful acts against anyone, Jewish or otherwise, and in no way are my comments here (or elsewhere) meant to support those who hate or perpetrate hate acts against ANY group, including against those of the Jewish faith.

The creation of Israel by the Zionist movement with British collusion

Actually that's not how it's seen by most people at all.   I've lived in Israel and the non-Jewish perspective is usually that Jewish terrorist groups intimidated the British into leaving the area.  

The use of the phrase "jewish terrorist group is not myth or even propaganda.  The history of the Irgun is not hidden or secret, even in Israel

The only "collusion" was Lord Balfour's letter to Rothschild, and that was a relatively minor event in the history of the independence of Israel.

Secondly, there is a bit of hypocrisy that is going on here.  Turkey is widely criticized for stifling any and all speech denying that the Armenian holocaust occurred.  I agree that Turkey should be thusly criticized, as people should be free to debate and examine historical events.

The reason the Iranian president's remarks resonate amongst many is that Israel (and Germany and many other nations) promote a similar policy - that any and all examinations or questioning of the holocaust is actually illegal.  Not just something to be deplored, it's actually illegal to question the holocaust.  There are people actually on trial and who have been imprisoned for this "crime".

Why should this be so?  The facts of the holocaust have been debated by completely non-prejudicial groups, with new information accepted by mainstream scholars.  For one example, the memorial at Auschwitz read "4 million killed" for decades, but has since been modified to refer to 1 million.

The fact that Jews were targeted and killed is not denied by (almost) anyone.  The question that the Iranian president is referring to is, how many and under what circumstances.  There are serious questions about the numbers of those killed and under what circumstances.  Why is it illegal to examine these issues?

I myself have spoken to many survivors of concentration camps and heard their stories of horror.  Again I am not excusing or allying myself with those who perpetrate hateful speech or acts against any group.  I also deplore the fact that many anti-Semitic groups rally around the issue of the holocaust to justify their behavior.  I furthermore do not agree in any way with the Iranian president's call to "wipe Israel off the map" as I am advocate for peace for ALL people.

That being said, I also think that this issue is too contentious to be spoken about freely in the United States as it has become an emotionally-laden nuclear bomb.  There are other, non-jewish aspects of WW2 which are rarely mentioned or discussed, concerning German POW's, Rroma (gypsies), Poles and other Slavic peoples (esp Ukrainians), Communist party members (German) and physically handicapped people who also suffered greatly in WW2.

The Iranian president has issued many inflammatory, extremist statements.  That being said, the issue of the holocaust and questions about it are not solely the province of nuts, anti-Semites and hatemongers.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 03:44:55 AM EST
Soj.....I think you put it really well.

Why wouldn't the number have been exaggerated? That's just typical of any group trying to promote it's cause.

I don't think Israel should ever have been formed. And Nations under the banner of Islam are correct in thinking that it was a plot by the West to take the land they had been living on. It was a plot, it was enacted. The lands were divided by the British and it was enforced. Sadaam Hussein for whatever his motivations may have really been, had a logical argument that Kuwait was part of Iraq. Just as American Indians can make the same claim to the land here. It was with greed and deception that the boundaries of the Mid east were created.

Israel is a very violent nation. It occupation of the West Bank is criminal. It's settlements are clearly part of a conspiracy to prevent the West Bank from being independent.

Having said that, I am not a big fan of Islam or Christianity or Judiasm. I do not feel sympathetic to Islam....The state of Israel and the Islamic or Arab nations around it are one big mess because the mentality of the people is so utterly primitive. There's plenty of blame on both sides with the U.S. and the Britiain and now mainland Europe playing the directors role in creating a new potential nuclear Holocaust.

by Stu Piddy on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 11:30:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did Slavery actually exist in the US. Now I don't want to applaud racist thought, nor does anyone deny that Black Americans suffered from targetted discrimination, and that indeed some were enslaved, but surely historians should be able to debate whether or not slavery ever existed as a mass, systematic social system in the South. Or perhaps it is just a myth created by Blacks on grossly exaggerated facts, designed to elicit sympathy and guilt among non-Blacks.

The question of whether racist speech should be criminalized is a legitimate one. It is in Europe, it isn't in the US. I personally think it shouldn't be a crime. But for some reason you don't raise that broader issue, merely questioning why a certain category of racist speech should be illegal.

What the Iranians are questioning is whether or not there was a quite successful attempt by the Germans to systematically eradicate the Jewish population in the areas under their control during WWII. But that is not a matter of historical debate, anymore than the slavery example given above, or for that matter that WWII actually occurred as a major war, rather than a few minor skirmishes. Anyone who suggests otherwise is frankly delusional, and it is natural to suspect their motives and/or sanity.

PS - yes some of the details of the Holocaust are debated and revised by serious historians. No, nobody seriously believed that four million died at Auschwitz, regardless of what Communist propaganda said. The figures for the death toll of the Holocaust are also in debate - they range from about five million to seven million murdered Jews. In Poland the figure is roughly three million. - about ninety percent of the prewar Polish Jewish population. Most of the survivors were those who either fled to or were deported to the USSR in 1939-41. Among those who were in Poland about 60,000-80,000 survived. In other words a death rate of 97-98%.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 17th, 2006 at 03:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's separate two issues here.

If someone wants to issue racist statements, whether that's against Jews or African-Americans or anyone else, that should be deplored.  I agree with you that it shouldn't be illegal per se, but definitely to be condemned.

However questioning history is a separate issue.  If someone wants to question the established history of slavery in the USA, should that be illegal? I don't think so.  Of course most people questioning the established historical account of slavery ARE doing so to further a racist agenda.

That being said, there ARE people who do question the established historical record on a number of issues, including WW2 and the persecution of Jews, who do not do it to further a racist agenda.  That this should be a crime in and of itself is wrong in my opinion.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 02:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That being said, there ARE people who do question the established historical record on a number of issues, including WW2 and the persecution of Jews, who do not do it to further a racist agenda.  That this should be a crime in and of itself is wrong in my opinion.

What do you mean by 'questioning the established historical record' being a crime? It isn't. There are plenty of debates among historians relating to the Holocaust. I think you don't understand what it is you need to do to get prosecuted. Examples are suggesting that there was no systematic extermination of Jews, denying the existence of gas chambers, arguing that the number of Jews killed lies in the hundreds of thousands rather than millions. None of those are an alternative point of view of history any more than saying that the world is ten thousand years old is an alternative view of geology. They are simply lies. Technically I suppose such delusional nonsense could be separate from racism, in the real world, however, those who promote it are inevitably racist.

There is thus a fundamental difference between the Turkish banning of discussing the Armenian genocide and the European banning of Holocaust denial. One seeks to ban speaking the truth because of a chauvinistic insistence on lies, the other criminalizes lying based on racism. In other words one bans a critique of racism, the other bans racist speech. From an abstract freedom of speech point of view both are limits on freedom, but it is wrong to blithely equate the two.

by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 18th, 2006 at 10:48:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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