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Dataveillance: Creating a reason to investigate you | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Dataveillance (4.00 / 3)

I hate to hear that happening to you Janet. It's a hassle none of us need and also one we all need to fight against. You did the right thing, in my opinion, of protesting the charge and making note that it wasn't you. That's all we can do and although it's probably an asterisk, it's no more dangerous than the people who charge money to interperate it's meaning.

This is all technology that can be used for great benefit or, in the wrong hands, cause life changing problems for good, innocent people.

I came onto all of this a long time ago and I've adjusted but not in what would be the normal way. I self censor my word selection, for instance, but I'll never stop speaking out honestly. We just need our legislators to get back to having our interests at heart and make changes to sincerely protect us. Don't change what you're doing if you're doing nothing wrong and I seriously doubt that you're a credible threat.

;)

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 01:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (4.00 / 2)

Of course I am not a credible threat to anyone or anything except DINO's and Republicans' running for office chances of getting re-elected.

But I went to a peace march and blogged about it. I went to Crawford and blogged about it. Re-read the title to your own diary, and consider what soj says in her fp story:

The administration isn't catching terrorists or preventing attacks with these programs. What they're doing is spying on Americans who dare to dissent against the administration. They're spending untold billions of dollars to eavesdrop, monitor, store data and harass innocent Americans whose sole "crime" is to remain critical of the administration - in a lawful, peaceful way.

That's the bottom line.

Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one. - Sam Rayburn

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 01:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (4.00 / 3)

Absolutely, but when I say it people want to put a tinfoil hat on me

;)

The administration isn't catching terrorists or preventing attacks with these programs.

There are very few credible threat or at least there were before BushCo started creating more. Still there are far, far fewer than most politicians refer to.

They're spending untold billions of dollars to eavesdrop, monitor, store data and harass innocent Americans whose sole "crime" is to remain critical of the administration - in a lawful, peaceful way.

Because we are the threat perceived by this administration. It goes further though with the ones in power now because they have such a diverse amount of activities to protest against or reveal.

It looks like the current threat manufactured for manipulation is the elf/alf and environmental, animal rights and associated groups.

The main intent of my diary is for people to realize that the accusation/threat can be built around the individual based on what criteria is used from all data that is retained as routine.

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 01:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (4.00 / 2)

OK, I may need to be more specific, after all. First, go read this.

One of my roommates at the time was a VVAW member, and John Kniffin visited our house several times, as did other VVAW members. During the time before the trial, I twice opened my front door to find a pair of FBI agents on my porch. Note from your reading above, that the entire incident for which they were indicted was the result of actions by an FBI plant in the VVAW.

The Southern Regional assistant coordinator of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, William 'Bill' Lemmer, revealed himself as an undercover FBI operative in May of 1972. During the 1973 trial it was revealed that the VVAW had been infiltrated by government agents and informants, such as Emmerson Poe and Lemmer.

The charge in question on my credit card was not for a lamp ordered from Belgium or some such. It was to an airline in a middle eastern country. I have had my credit card stolen out of my purse twice. Both times there was a little flurry of charges in the hours after the theft in stores around town. Ordinary crooks know how it works - the card will be cancelled as soon as the theft is discovered. But this time . . . my card was not physically stolen, and this was the only unauthorized charge. It smells very fishy.

You may think that I need to go to the store and purchase more tin foil. But I've been a little too close to this kind of thing before.

"If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" seems naive to me. Or that they will restrict themselves to elf/alf types. That may be where it starts, but it will probably not be where it ends. I know that innocent people who disagree with government policies can be set up. It's happened before. Here, in America. In my lifetime.

Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one. - Sam Rayburn

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 07:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

I believe that sometimes they pick the groups for different reasons, sometimes the individuals are chosen from results of datamining and other times they are covering up activities from long ago. This comment speculation applies to the BushCo crew in charge right now.

There are several well documented instances of how the trail is created in advance, sadly, such as the apparently insignificant minor purchases that could identify a location or build an identifiable trail to be used later. This is what catches my attention in so many other cases that share the similarity.

Without making it public here, do you have all of those theft reports/incidents documented and other proof that you didn't make those purchases?

Hey, does this tie in to the fiasco of what happened to Kerry's campaign and claims of some 1971 meeting a list? 2 more names came up from that and are similar.

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 08:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Do you remember this lawsuit Lemmer brought for libel in 82 or so and lost? Really interesting insight into that person.

The same people today are so often the same ones from 30 years ago, like they're settling nonexistent scores-grudges, or keeping peaceful people quiet over their own paranoia.

One case after another of the post 9/11 prosecutions has vhardly any credible evidence of terr threat but instead connections that go back to previous GOP admins.

link

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 08:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Janet, I know how awful this feels and how concerned it has made you. But this is nothing new. It hasn't stopped since the Nixon years (and probably was going on before that as well) The FBI, CIA, NSA and all the known and unknown (yes, we have those too) Intel agencies have run their own show since J Edgar Hoover. . .meaning, they justify anything they want to do. If they don't get caught, if no one leaks or whistle blows, they never miss a beat. BUT. . .it has never stopped! There has never been a time that these agencies haven't been syping on Americans and compiling lists.

I have no doubt that the FBI has had me on file since 1956 when they came to ask me about my brother and his friends. But I refuse to let that knowledge alter my life and interfere with my enjoyment of life. True, we haven't had any one as totally insane and insidious in office as we currently do, but if we live in fear of them, then they have accomplished exactly what they wanted to accomplish.

don't miss ~ Matters of Spirit and Expanded Views

by shirlstars (shirlstarsw@aol.com) on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 06:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Yes, shirl, I know. See the new comment I just posted. And I am trying not to let this get to me or shut me up.

But, as bad as things were back in the late 60's - early 70's, I fear that this time it may be worse. The current technology is so much more powerful than what they had available then. And the brainwashing of ordinary citizens who are being asked to condone this is so much more advanced.

I mean, I am the one who is constantly saying, we need to get out and work for good progressive candidates. Volunteering for campaigns, writing elected officials. Buying a Democracy Bond to support Dean's 50-state strategy. Simple actions of a concerned and involved citizen in a democracy. Are these types of actions now being targeted?

But of course, as last time, I also support veterans. That may be unacceptable.

I will be very interested to find our whether I will be able to meet you in March. That was my first thought when I saw my bill . . .

Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one. - Sam Rayburn

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 07:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

Yeah, that changes things considerably. Don't freak out yet but this does deserve more attention.

Believe me, I am not one to ever accuse someone of tinfoil behavior. I only make that reference for people to have a landmark as to something they can relate to.

I need to have that other comment in front of me to answer so I'll do that back up above, or over or wherever it is.

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 07:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

Did you see this link already?

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 08:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Yes, I had seen that before. Made me cry. But I don't know who wrote it - do you? The only one of the Gainesville 8 who I remember (though I think I met others) is John, and he died a few years ago.

And yes, beginning with the SBV nonsense, I have been very depressed to see the same characters pop up again now. I'm doing what I can to get more (real) Democrats elected next November. The bad news - to me - is that even if we are successful, the damage now being done will not be healed for a long time. As the SBV demonstrated, the wounds are life-long. I really feel that they have serious emotional problems regarding their service in VN that drives them to trash other VN vets like Kerry (and McCain, and Cleland, and now Murtha.) And that is only a tiny part of "the damage now being done" of course. And of course, more of the "same characters" from the Nixon years are now at the highest levels of government. With the philosophy that the tragedy of those years is that the consolidation of power in the Presidency got derailed for a while. See Alito.

I don't think that I am unrealistic in working through the electoral process - it is not a panacea by any means. I do it because even if the results are small in the realm of damage repair, the damage is so great that we should be doing what we can - even if it's just as a lowly volunteer in a congressional race or showing up for a candidate endorsement forum for my local Democrats group.

On my more optimistic days, I think of the Church Commission and Texas' Dirty Thirty and others. I saw Bob Gammage speak a couple of weeks ago. He was a member of the Dirty Thirty and is now running for Governor. (He was a state rep, a state senator, a US Congressman, and a TX Supreme Court Judge in the meantime.) He made the point that the Dirty Thirty took political risks - and paid a price - but they did get Texas politics considerably less corrupt for a while. It's corrupt again. We need to clean it up again. His point was that we have to keep coming back and doing the clean up again and again, but the improvements are real. Even if they are not permanent, we benefit from having those times of relative honesty and effectively serving the people. Never all fixed or as good as we want it, but better - and better is worth something.

And the reforms that came out of the Church Commission also. FISA for example. As shirl says, it never completely stopped - the violations of our freedoms. But for a while it was no where near as bad as it was in those times - when FBI agents were knocking at my door. And that is worth something to me.

Almost all the young men of my generation came of age with the first thing they had to confront was: Do I submit to the draft and take the risk that I will have to kill - or be killed - before my 21st birthday? Or do I go to prison? Or do I exile myself from my home and friends and family - possibly forever? Over 50,000 of these young men were killed. How many more were maimed physically or spiritually? Since Nixon resigned and the VN war (finally) ended, an entire generation grew up without having to face this choice. And that is Worth It, for their sakes. Now we have to worry about another generation. Which will it be for them? As it was with my generation, or as it was with the generation after?

Which is why I'm trying not to let this incident shut me up or cause me to quit trying to work on campaigns or to support veterans. But it has me deeply worried. Our country was headed down a very dark road during the Nixon years and we were able - just barely - to grab the wheel of the car before we went off the cliff. There are no guarantees that we'll be able to do it this time.

I posted my story here because - with the exception of Gooserock, who seems to "get it," most of the folks on the blogs seem to me to not realize how close to the cliff we already are.

Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one. - Sam Rayburn

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 09:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

I certainly appreciate everything you're going through and how close to the edge we all are. That's where my frustration shows in feeling let down by the dem party. It's probably a good time to say again that I don't think both parties are equal and that the democrats have just gotten sidetracked into complicity for the past however long.

One point I try to stress that gets lost is that the same ones in power now as before Bush family, Cheney, Rumsfeld... are not representative of either party. Their influence is more similar to an org crime network based on the facade of national interests. This is what the dems need to break down and break apart permanently. It disseminates as patriotism...Ollie North laying a tear-jerker story on Fox News while the actual illicit activity is long forgotten. We are suffering their plans now because they were allowed to slip into the private sector last time.

The similarities I saw are the same manipulations by think tank (r/w) funded flunkies and propaganda press outlets actually brainwashing the public. The same ones before, or barely seperated from the same, came back to hurt Kerry for criminal political gain and that also allowed them to hurt their veteran brothers in the process. I can't see the SBV as intense patriots but as manipulators.

The intel agencies have been fighting these guys since they first came around and the Bush/Cheney crew has pretty well destroyed that service. How did the good people in those agencies allow that to happen? I don't think this story is more than half over yet and if what I wrote earlier in this comment is true, then everything is moving as it should. Trouble is, there's no way to know and waiting for the outcome isn't an option. I'm not suggesting anything radical of course, just keeping on with what we're doing.

Want a coincidence?

The timing of the report indicating criminal spying and computer file theft by rep aides of dem judicial committee members and the attacks on Kerry are parallel to the Watergate revelation and the setting up of the Gainesville 8. There are some name coincidences too along with funders of propaganda publications.

It's almost genius that the pattern of deceptive schemes are so bizarre that normal people automatically call them conspiracy theory when it's mentioned.

It's as though the more brazen they are the better defense they receive when the truth would be so crazy it couldn't be believed to be true, right?

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 10:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Well, when a tactic works, why not keep using it?

I'm thinking of when the newly elected President of Iran back in the early 50's (can never spell his name and too lazy to Google right now) seemed to be considering nationalizing their oil industry. BP had a problem with that. So Kermit Roosevelt goes to Iran and in just three weeks manages to create faux "riots in the streets" that led to the deposing of the elected president and the installation of the Shah - because the "threat to public order" made it necessary.

Sound familiar?

Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one. - Sam Rayburn

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 11:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

If it turns out that there are actually 2 opposite factions that have run under the public currents plus rogue groups along the way, can we hope to ever be able to change any of that? An awful lot of stuff happened back in March 2004 around Kerry that goes back to that group and 1971-72

The cabal of Bush41-Cheney-Rummy has a long history of intel/decpetion/covert-regime-change and a coincidental connection to opponents caught in compromising positions created by the cabal and then triggered by the same control,

by rumi on Fri Feb 10th, 2006 at 11:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

Hope lies in the right hand link of my sig line, and not very likely solely through party politics.

Nonviolent Action information available here

by NorthDakotaDemocrat (NorthDakotaDemocrat at g mail dot com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 05:46:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

It's almost genius that the pattern of deceptive schemes are so bizarre that normal people automatically call them conspiracy theory when it's mentioned.

A friend of mine recently supplied me with an answer to the charge of, "Oh you're a conspiracy theorist".

Now my reply will be, "No, actually you must be a coincidence theorist."

Nonviolent Action information available here

by NorthDakotaDemocrat (NorthDakotaDemocrat at g mail dot com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 05:43:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Hey, that's a coincidence. I like that concept too.

:D I found the old American Century a long time ago and it's helped shape the way I think.

by rumi on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 09:04:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 0)

Please count me in as one who "gets it." And feel free to use my email address at any time if there's something happening that does not fit to blogging.

Nonviolent Action information available here

by NorthDakotaDemocrat (NorthDakotaDemocrat at g mail dot com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 05:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dataveillance (none / 1)

Thanks NDD. I've bookmarked the AEI site. Much to read there, and much of it distressing. I have to approach that in small doses.

Niewert's essay on the subject greatly influenced my thinking on this, too. I read it in installments as he was writing it. I just reread the last two paragraphs as I was getting the link. Have to cling to that. . . .

Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one. - Sam Rayburn

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 11:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dataveillance: Creating a reason to investigate you | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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