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How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War? | 25 comments (25 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War (none / 1)

but it IS an occupation and we should call it such. The Republicans have gotten so used to cherry picking the language and inventing new terms to suit themselves that I would find it horrifying to find liberals doing the same thing.

The major reason we associate it with the Palestinians is because we have used it in their context so much. If we call our presence in Iraq what it is, an occupation, then that would be a lot more productive that calling it what it isn't. A War.

Truth > A Lie

Hermaphrodite with attitude!

by Syniel (s y n i e l *dontspammeeeeeeDx*@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 08:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War (none / 0)

Not to say that you would ever stoop, I should add

Hermaphrodite with attitude!

by Syniel (s y n i e l *dontspammeeeeeeDx*@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 08:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War (none / 1)

I would "stoop" to such a thing. That's what rhetoric is.

It's just like lawyers in a courtroom. The politics of cooperation are over--it's all adversarial at this point. In the courtroom, all you have are two opposing sides using sophistry to attempt to approximate the truth.

And unfortunately, the American people have shown themselves completely vulnerable to sophistry.

Also unfortunately, when sophistry is confronted by truth, sophistry usually wins. It worked harder at it.

I'm not above using the tools of sophistry to counter their bullshit sophistry--in order to get at the truth.

by thereisnospoon on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 09:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War (none / 0)

I've probably just tasted the koolaid of Socrates and Plato too much :). Don't mind me.

I do think that sophistry carries less weight that truth does and you can still use the tools of rhetoric without having to resort to sophistry. I may be a silly idealist but i do believe that people can pick up on good old blunt truth, used well and in the right way/ It resonates.

In rhetoric we can appeal to sources of authority, logic, emotion, etc. We have many many tools at our disposal, so I don't see how calling an occupation by any other thing is going to serve our purpose.

If nothing else, when eyebrows raise and minds think "Palestine" you can use Palestine as a tool to grab peoples attention and contrast the two situations. A good rhetorician would.

I see where you guys are coming from but I just don't agree with it. :(

Hermaphrodite with attitude!

by Syniel (s y n i e l *dontspammeeeeeeDx*@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 10:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War (none / 0)

The American people associate the word 'occupation' with Palestinian propaganda. It is a word for the State of Israel (and their extended post 1967 lands), that is used by Arabs/Terrorists to try to undermine our ally. That is a majority view.

That is why I think the word is counterproductive. It's like talking about the means of production or the bourgeoisie. Use your enemies language and you are you enemy.

Thus, the problem with winning over the majority by using a discredited word.

THe more they associate our occupation of Iraq with Israel's occupation of Palestine, the less problem they see with the occupation.

by BooMan on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 at 09:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Occupied lands (none / 0)

I'm not sure if your first paragraph was just an attempt to distill and re-state the conventional wisdom on Israel/Palestine, but that's never the sense I've gotten. I always got the impression that, as much as people were upset at the founding of Israel in the first place, 'occupation', and 'occupied lands' only refers to the land that Israel unilaterally, well, occupied, in 1967. I'm no expert in the topic, but I've always been under the impression that, if you give a Palestinian and an Israeli a map of the area, and ask them to point to the Occupied Territories, they would both point to the exact same places: the West Bank, the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem. I don't think anybody disputes which land was granted by the British/UN and which land was unilaterally occupied. Now, what to do about the situation... I understand there's some disagreement there.

Everybody Comes From Somewhere: Conversations and Activism

by CookTing (FEMA|at|yourhouse|dot|now) on Fri Jun 16th, 2006 at 04:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How Can You Surrender If There Was Never a War? | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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