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GAO Issues Report on Iraq | 11 comments (11 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: GAO Issues Report on Iraq (4.00 / 2)

Seems to me "precipitous withdrawal" is a red herring, and I'm surprised you fell for it, Boo. This whole idea that Iraq needs its big brother to get it out of this mess is just another instance of the stupid hubris that got us into the mess in the first place. Iraq didn't wreck itself. WE did. Pretending that the US is the only one that can fix the damage is like sentencing Charlie Manson to provide grief counseling for his victims' survivors.

Enough with the plans and strategies and roadmaps. In the case of this US government all they can do is magnify its inherent brutish idiocy by putting it down on paper and powerpoint presentations. The only exit strategy that would make sense is for the US and its allies to confess to its criminal, baseless aggression, make what reparations it can through independent international organizations, get its sorry ass out, and turn the perps over to international criminal courts for prosecution.

That ain't gonna happen on account of ongoing, incurable stupidity and brutish power-mongering at the highest level. But all the rest is just more beltway bullshit.

Bush is "the first President to admit to an impeachable offense." --Former Nixon counsel John Dean

by DaveW on Thu Jul 13th, 2006 at 12:41:23 PM EST

Re: GAO Issues Report on Iraq (4.00 / 2)

I'm not falling for it. I just think it may very well be true that the short-term result of a U.S. withdrawal will be a significant uptick in the sectarian bloodletting. From a strictly humanitarian point of view, that concerns me. It concerns me in the same way that the Sudan concerns me. If our biggest motivation is to limit the loss of life, we have to take the civil war seriously. In my judgment, though, I don't think we are going to improve things by staying. In theory, it could work by giving the government more time to build up its internal security. But events on the ground seem to belie any belief that we are making progress in that area.

It's just a terrible mess.

by BooMan on Thu Jul 13th, 2006 at 12:47:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GAO Issues Report on Iraq (none / 1)

In theory a fast withdrawal with reparations administered through international organizations could also work to lessen the ongoing damage. Iraqis are competent people who were burdened with the plans and strategies of Euro/American imperialists for a century or more. The result was a synthetic country ruled by the only dictator that could keep that unnatural confederation together. I think it's equally likely that in the absence of a common occupying enemy the factions may see that they're on their own to deal with their own problems more intelligently and effectively than can be expected from the US and its allies. "We" may not like the outcome, but tough shit. "We" had a hundred years to do it right, and failed miserably every single time. Why would anybody need our help?

Assuming otherwise sounds to me like an echo of the "white man's burden" view of the world. Iraq was a brutal but stable dictatorship before the invasion. There's no reason to think an enemy attack will leave something better in its wake, or that prolonging that enemy occupation will somehow transform evil into good.

You're the history guy, Boo: I don't recall that France fell into civil war when the Nazi puppet occupation ended abruptly, but maybe you have better information. If it didn't, why should we assume that Iraqis will turn more savage under equivalent events?

Bush is "the first President to admit to an impeachable offense." --Former Nixon counsel John Dean

by DaveW on Thu Jul 13th, 2006 at 01:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GAO Issues Report on Iraq (none / 0)

Why do I think the civil war will get worse? Because right now there are real limitations on how organized the factions can get. There are limitations on their firepower and ability to move materials of war. Removing the little security that exists will remove such restrictions.

Meanwhile, we cannot forget that the prize is the largest proven oil reserves in the world, and that is a recipe for almost unlimited struggle. It's hard to have national reconciliation on top of a mountain of black gold.

I am not an expert on Iraq, but I don't except peace there, or democracy, if we leave. That is not a reason to stay, however, if we have no real prospects of preventing the worst. It is a consideration, however.

What bothers me is when I see people saying 'tough shit' about what will happen to Iraq when we leave. Knowingly creating a humanitarian crisis is not something that should be done with a mere shrug of the shoulders.

We should try to figure out some way to avert the worst. But, honestly, I think we've passed the point where the worst can be averted.

At least the GAO is urging them to think things through.

I don't see worrying about the total breakdown of order and mass sectarian killing as some white man's burden. I see it as the burden of the whole international community. I know Bush caused the problem is poorly suited to help fix it. But we are also the only force in the region with the resources to do anything.

In the end, I think we need to draw down our troops and get out, and do it in consultation with the Iraqi government. But I predict that the Iraqi government will dissolve as Sunnis refuse to participate in a parliament that cannot protect them and is complicit in their genocide.

I have no idea how this will all play out in the region.

by BooMan on Thu Jul 13th, 2006 at 01:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GAO Issues Report on Iraq (none / 0)

Yes, I agree that it's likely that the Iraqi government will dissolve. I guess where we differ is whether that would be a bad thing, or at least whether it would be a worse thing than prolonging an ineffectual puppet government until it falls later on. Iraq is a fictional state created by Euro/American banditry. I'm not sure why its breakup would be such a terrible event. If Iraqis value the current geography, perhaps being faced with solving the problems on their own will lead them to their own solution.

We are already seeing the inevitable results of enemy occupation: rape and murder by the occupiers will predictably worsen as the occupiers' sense of resentment and entitlement deepens. The consequence will be escalating hatred toward the US and its allies throughout the region and the world. There's nothing in our staying for the US or for the Iraqis that I can see.

When I said "tough shit" I was referring to results the US would not like: a country and region more unstable and hostile than it was before we interfered, "loss" of control over oil resources, increased attractiveness of terrorist entities worldwide. As far as I'm concerned we deserve whatever blowback our self-righteous idiocy brings. For the Iraqis, I don't see how the shit we deposited there can get much tougher. Now the time is coming for us to pay for our little adventure, and it probably won't be pretty.

I already said what I think is the obvious best move for all concerned. It won't happen, not because of failure to "think things through", but because the interests of the perpetrators are at odds with the interests of both the Iraqi people and the American nation. If we want to fix things, let's develop the humility for once to start in our homeland.

Bush is "the first President to admit to an impeachable offense." --Former Nixon counsel John Dean

by DaveW on Thu Jul 13th, 2006 at 02:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree fully on all of your points (none / 0)

Sad thing is is that basically our soldiers have been abandoned over there.....there is no mission, there is no success to be had or found or pulled out of your ass, the majority of your country does not back how you spend your 24/7 but is powerless to bring you home or is worried about a civil war and is afraid to bring you home and they keep hoping that maybe a miracle will happen, and P.S. people try to kill you or each other every single day and you are supposed to do your best to prevent both. We haven't seen the last of the atrocities done by our troops if someone doesn't do "something" pretty quick. A lot of our troops are at wits end.

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 13th, 2006 at 02:51:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GAO Issues Report on Iraq | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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