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The book the CIA doesn't want you to read: Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA's Key Field Commander
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Display:
Let's see if I've got this straight:

posting a diary that reflects the opinion of much of the world about the attitudes of most Americans = being hateful

telling said diarist that he is a "Republican troll" who writes things that are "pathetically fucking stupid = not being hateful

What strange parallel universe have I dropped into here?

I'll tell you one thing: I am profoundly grateful that I am not hateful towards anyone because it would kill my spirit and I would cease to live. And, as Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see..."

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:38:30 PM EST
Attack and counter-attack...

I do not hate Ductape for the diary.
I do not hate those that espouse rhetoric generalizing hatred and stupidity towards any nation.
I stand by my comments in that diary - and by the defiintions within FAQ's and Common Wisdom as to disruptive diarists and comments. At least one of the comments you quote is not mine, and I am sorry you felt it necessary to attribute the comments of others to me.

I did not post these comments in that diary and ask that they be limited to the topic of this diary.

I asked that this be a philosophical diary - and did not bring politics here.

I am asking whether it is what we expect of each other...and how far we have become divided.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least one of the comments you quote is not mine, and I am sorry you felt it necessary to attribute the comments of others to me.

I didn't attribute it to you.

I asked that this be a philosophical diary - and did not bring politics here.

You wrote:

Sweeping generalizations by an individual, in a blog diary, in the media, or by a government are ALWAYS wrong. There are so many times that a few people have spouted hateful comments and generalizations about the United States, about Republicans, about Democrats, about Arabs and Muslims, about Christians, about anything 'they' don't like.

That has nothing to do with politics?

I am asking whether it is what we expect of each other...and how far we have become divided.

And so am I. Why is it acceptable behaviour to attack each other so viciously (as some have) on a lefty blog where people are working towards the same aim? Yes, opinions differ and everyone has a right to their own. The discussion in that diary was very informative in many ways, but what really causes divisions is when people choose to bring their emotions and preconceived notions of a person into the debate in order to negate whatever that person says. And that is definitely trollish behaviour. I have read the FAQs and I am well aware of the main rule here: don't be a prick.

You want to heal divisons? Treat people with respect and humility. It really is that simple.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Something I wrote last December that might be appropriate.

There was something from the liner notes of an Archie Shepp album (Live in San Francisco, which by the way is an excellent album) that caught my eye, where Archie says:

"Love is fundamental to art. I can't go to work with hate in my heart. I go to work with love in my heart. But love can express itself in bitterness and rage. That's only an aspect of love."

That I think sums up my own work, whether it's in the classroom, in poetry, my professional writing, or when it comes to blogging. Friends and acquaintances have referred to my poetry as dark - sometimes gloomy, sometimes angry. The same is said about my sense of humor, and again the same could be said about what I do here in my little corner of blogtopia. Know that the anger that can periodically jump out at you has its foundations in love: for my family, my country, my planet, my faith, etc. I sincerely doubt I could create - whether in an off-the-cuff blog remark or something more substantive such as a scientific paper - with hate in my heart. Hate destroys. There's no need to go there. And love in all its forms, is everywhere to be found.

I've interpreted DTF's writing as in the spirit of love. I wish love were all nice words and flowers. It ain't.

Visit Notes From Underground: red state rebel scum since 2003.

by James Benjamin (durito_don at yahoo dot com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dark has its place in art and life and writing...yet...

Framing and direction and responsiveness to the readers of the darkness helps those that do not see the love you do. We need more open communication and even dark poetry and writings are clear as to the source and direction of their anger.

So...when you write in darkness - let there be a candle showing us where your heart is. Not all of us can see through your eyes...we need to be shown the way through the darkness that you share.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So...when you write in darkness - let there be a candle showing us where your heart is. Not all of us can see through your eyes...we need to be shown the way through the darkness that you share.

This is very insightful SallyCat. However, I don't believe that you mean it. Because if you did, you would also be open to seeing things through the darkness that DTF sees things through, and that many more of us see things through. Pagan and Wiccan poetry does not make patronizing someone any less wrong. Nor will it do much to save the next innocent Iraqi child from being blown up, or the next American soldier from being blown up.

Green Grass and High Tides Forever

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't believe I mean it? That is your choice yet it is my belief.

I am asking that DTF write in a way that shows us why he sees the darkness. I am asking that all of us write in a way that shows what our perceptions are.

The same question that I asked of catnip I ask of you:
Is that your choice - that we continue to disbelieve another's belief?

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See, when you ask someone to write in ways that are more comfortable or easier for you to understand, IMO it's like the American media covering up the realities of destroyed bodies, homes, villages, civilizations. It's not the full picture. Dark is stark. It isn't comfy. I think he showed pretty clearly what his perceptions are. And  he was supported in that perception by enough of us, I would hope, to put to rest this notion that he is an America hater, a troll, a right wing plant. Because if he is all of those things, then so am I.

Green Grass and High Tides Forever
by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To slap someone around and say 'it's because I love you and know whats best' is still wrong. To beat a partner or friend or wife or child and then say...I'm sorry...it wasn't you it was everybody else that upset me...is still wrong. In my opinion your analogy doesn't work.

Communication doesn't have to be brutal to be honest. Brutality is for bullies.

Is that your choice?

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My choice is to know exactly how someone feels. I don't want or need it to be dressed up so that I can handle it better. I can either handle it or not. I think it's been shown pretty clearly now who can handle it, and who can't. I'm willing to challege and examine my own failings as an American enough to handle what someone from the outside looking in thinks. That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt sometimes. It does. But just because honesty, as I see it, hurts sometimes, doesn't mean it's brutal. Nor does it mean that brutality was intended. And it certainly doesn't make someone an abuser.

Green Grass and High Tides Forever
by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My choice is to know exactly how someone feels.   .....I think it's been shown pretty clearly now who can handle it, and who can't.

My perception is that you choose not to see how I feel. That is your choice.

My perception is that you choose to make a presumption about what I can and cannot handle. That is also your choice.

So be it...as others have said above...do not presume do speak for me.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My advice is for people to read my latest front-page post, or actually the PW link, and think about urban crime, rather than fight about whether Ductape is, or is not, offensive.
by BooMan on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually I just got home from getting deeper on the NSA list! Went out and bought a couple of books on Islam and the Quran. That should set off more NSA buzzers.

Oh yeah...and I've got tickets to see Al Gore next Friday night talk about his book....neener, neener, neener...

Got to have my priorities...now off to your diary...

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
reading recently a similar request to Arthur Gilroy to change his writing style, and he basically responded that his writing is his writing.  It's part of his 'voice'.  It really made me stop to think that perhaps I needed to get past any sylistic blocks I have with some writers and make the effort to read what he/she is trying to convey.  Most of time I do a good job at discerning a message, but I'm also willing to concede that I can get it wrong.  That's why you'll usually see me ask a question instead of jump right in with fire if I disagree.  This is especially important when I'm reading something so complex like a Ductape diary.

I think it's a worthy discussion to have regarding how to communicate in a way that provides some breathing room for differing opinions, but when it comes as a result of a thread involving personal attacks and questions of motives that are merely opinions and not known facts, then it's hard to break out of that cycle.

Just some thoughts.  Peace

We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit - Octavio Paz / Latino Político

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you know, I am surprised to see all these comments about how ductape's writing is mystical, or complex, or symbolic, or stylistic difficult.  I guess they are for a lot people.  

I just see them as formulaic.  Once you recognize the theme, you can kind of just focus on the artistry of it.  That's what I do.  I don't even read the nuts and bolts, but just at looks for hooks and bends.

I know the argument by heart, so why focus on every word?

But, I guess I've read too much Cold War propaganda on both sides not to see his stuff as standard tradecraft of the Marxist/Third World school.  What surprises me is that so many people see it as completely sincere and even convincing.  

But then, that is the point.  Play on people's sense of equivalency, their egalitarian spirit, their distaste for the excesses of capitalism.  Never concede anything, never allow the debate to be turned on your side, but always turn it around with an equivalency argument.  

They taught this stuff in schools for such things.  In Havana, in Moscow, anywhere the Soviets held sway.  It really is a subgroup, normally aimed at third world audiences, not American, and not European.  

It's kind of rolled over in this case to apply to the GWOT, so the economic justice aspects of it are downplayed.  But they are still there in force.  

by BooMan on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to the point where I haven't noticed a cadence to his posts, but I have been more motivated towards peace activism by his words than anyone else I've read here or elsewhere on the web.  Sometimes it's through anger, other times it's because there's a breath of hope that jolts my insides.  It's our reactions that are important to whatever information we choose to read and in my case, I'm thankful for being given some prodding along the way that keeps me out working for change.  Again, that is my experience, I can understand and see how it would be different for others.

We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit - Octavio Paz / Latino Político
by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mostly like his stuff, and I always have.  I personally invited him to this site, IIRC.  But sometimes he gets in 'a mood' and he can become obnoxious.  I think his latest was obnoxious.  Of course, I chose to debate him, until he refused to debate.  But, that's how you know.
by BooMan on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 09:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You asked me a question which was equivalent to asking someone whose sister is being raped what course of study and career path her brother thinks she should pursue.

I recognize that there are men who could easily hold forth on such a discussion in such a situation.

I am not among those men.

It is interesting, when I recounted that particular exchange to someone offline, he said "That is the problem with you. You do not understand the Americans. Even though their sister is being raped, the most important thing to them will be what her income will be in case she survives."

And if you don't mind a respectful suggestion, I think it would actually work more to your advantage, if you wish to say that someone refused to debate you, or did not answer your question, because that is something that should carry maximum impact, that you reserve it for those whose writings you read in their entirety. ;)

That way no one can say that they answered your question, and you just didn't like the answer!

And please do not think that I am suggesting you read my writings in their entirety. You know what is best for you, and I am confident that in the fullness of time, you will read many writings in their entirety, and absorb many nuts and bolts that today might only give you indigestion!

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 12:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in there anything about it being the opinion of the rest of the world because I don't know if it is or isn't and I doubt the rest of the world gives a flying fuck, but Catnip......it is odd that you only show up here to stir up dissent and shit and that you like to "cherry pick" through lots of comments  coming up with your justifications for your war.  I have been known to despise this kind of behavior.  If Ductape throws another one of his hostility provoking diaries up, all I have to do it sit here quietly and wait for you and Dove appear like magic and bless us with your presence.....I know, it's me imagining all this because I thrive on conspiracy theories.  Secondly, I don't think I'll be providing traffic on your blog....everybody has their priorities.  Thirdly, I went to go cool off and watch Lamont and Joe debate and then watch someone from the WSJ give me his unslanted version I'm certain of who won, then I went to pick wild blackberries on the dam before the sun went down and then we ate them until my sons tummy had black juices running down the front, then we cleaned his tummy off.........because I needed a little extra reality harvested from living a real life in my day today.

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by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it is odd that you only show up here to stir up dissent and shit and that you like to "cherry pick" through lots of comments  coming up with your justifications for your war.

Yes, that is a common opinion around here despite the fact that I have posted some non-controversial diaries and made comments here that were not meant to "stir up dissent and shit". But those don't count because they don't fit into your little theory and that is what it is: a theory.

And, just which "war" are you referring to, Tracy? I certainly don't have a war going on except the one that I'm involved in daily with Bushco. If you think I'm somehow involved in any other so-called war, you are mistaken.

I checked out DT's diary because it was interesting, as was the discussion. I visit many blogs and leave comments there every day. I do a news & views roundup each nite because I like to know what's going on with the blogs I read and alert my readers to interesting topics. I'm certainly not going to apologize for that.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 02:46:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

  Gee, I guess I popped into the middle of a raging dispute.

  For the record,

  I reject, right along with you, the loopy reasoning which accepts as valid the following syllogisms:

 "posting a diary that reflects the opinion of much of the world about the attitudes of most Americans = being hateful"

"telling said diarist that he is a "Republican troll" who writes things that are "pathetically fucking stupid = not being hateful"

  Maybe I should post a diary of my own on it.

"What was truly impressive about the decade past, however, was our unwillingness, as a nation, to learn from our mistakes."

by proximity1 (timesreader@free.fr) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 07:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
though as I have been told now by two different people who have many days, weeks, and months spent in Europe......both Luam and Mad Man in the Marketplace have let it be known that this isn't the opinion of the rest of the world.  I just can't help getting the feeling though Catnip that this is the opinion that Catnip wants the rest of the world to have and Catnip will not be happy until the rest of the world has this opinion!  I am so fucking insulted that YOU think you speak for the rest of the world.......you don't speak for me Catnip and you make outlandish claims about who you speak for just like Ductape does!

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by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you've forgotten that I actually live in another country and, as such, have daily contact with people who are not American.

However, if you choose to believe that the rest of the world is sitting on America's doorstep with flowers and candy, that's your choice - although why you need to personally insult me while making that point is beyond me. And, I certainly never said that I speak for you, Tracy, since you are an American. I was referring to other countries' citizens.

Post some polls. Do some research. Travel. Read the news. And, if you still think my point is wrong, fine. If you find something different, let me know.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
either Catnip (you have delusions that you do) and I wouldn't venture to say that you have many conversations with people in a different country who are out of your comfort zone either......It's just another one of my many opinions, but you are far too narrow minded to have challenged your noodle to much diversity of any kind!

PMS Purchase More Shoes
by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wow did this fight get started?  Never mind.  I don't really want to know.
by BooMan on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You already know when this started, Boo. It was the moment when some people decided I kicked SusanHu off the site and she left in a veil of tears because I had been such a bully which you & I know is complete, fucking bullshit. But somehow - like the alien autopsy - it is a conspiracy theory that has stuck regardless of the actual facts and I am now BT enemy #1 or #2 - depending on how pissed off people are with Ductape on any given day.
by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 02:56:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we both know that has no basis in reality.
by BooMan on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 03:08:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
enough comments over the past few months to see that there are people here who still think she was driven off the site.  It may not have any basis in reality but it's still there.  I'm glad to see that you're starting to call out the misconceptions when they decide to bubble up.

We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit - Octavio Paz / Latino Político
by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 03:42:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I am sick and fucking tired of it. What does it take to get some people around here to actually face the truth of the situation and why does it have to infect every damn post I write? I'm being hunted down like some flipping traitor even when I post benign comments and none of what happened is my fault.

And then people accuse me for just showing up and commenting now and then like it's some kind of flipping conspiracy on my part to 'stir up shit'. Who wants to be around this kind of atmosphere all the time? But, try as I might to engage in rational conversation about topics that interest me here - as I do on many blogs daily - I still have a target on my head. And for what? Because some people think it's fun to hold grudges against me for things I didn't even do as if this is junior high. Well fuck that. I've had it.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 03:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Visit Notes From Underground: red state rebel scum since 2003.
by James Benjamin (durito_don at yahoo dot com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 12:30:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have some personal beef with me, e-mail me. If you refuse, then stop taking it out on everyone here by posting your insults about me and derailing this thread.
by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 02:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when it comes to blogging.  I don't do behind the scenes because for me it smacks of being manipulative and disingenuous.  I believe in living a life of functionality and that usually requires transparency to actually be successful.  I'm sorry that you took my angry comments to mean that I feel you ran SusanHu off.....I know that you didn't "run" her off.  Booman made this known to me in person.  I miss Susan and I wish that she were here but I know that she also has her life to live and she needs to make herself happy before considering making me happy.  I don't believe in treating people like Messiahs though, and Ductape Fatwa isn't my Messiah.  I'm free to express that and I'm free to take my energies in a new direction.  SallyCat created a different diary knowing and understanding that other people here needed a different direction for their energies.  Maybe you didn't understand all the whys and wherefors that some people were redirecting their energies....but for me I needed it and I didn't need an inciteful diary showing up in the middle of it when I was participating there to get away from incitefulness!  I'm not afraid of fighting for what I believe in and I'm not afraid to be transparent about it either.  I'm sorry you misunderstood me in some ways.  I do not like Ductape Fatwa's diaries, I don't believe they serve useful purpose and that now they actually cause some of my fellow countrymen to lose touch with honesty and integrity. I seek a full truth about the realities of this world in which I live and participate.  I seek to put all the cards on the table and go ahead and make that table transparent too and go ahead while we are at it and make all those cards transparent as well so that we can clearly see what everybody sitting at the table is holding........and that way we can make real decisions that work for the good of real people, and we know where we need to place our efforts in obtaining what we need for the good of real people and we will know clearly who and what we fight and who stands in our way in getting to real solutions for real people.  Nobody on planet earth though is a SAINT and Americans are no better and no worse than the next guy.  I don't like many of the things that my government tries to pull, but I don't like many of the things that most governments on this planet try to pull either!  By demonizing my own country and countrymen though and writing loads of inflammatory half truths, all I will ever accomplish is focusing a lot of attention on myself which solves..........NOTHING and Ductape Fatwa = Ann Coulter in my book and deserves maybe my attention perhaps every year and a half or so.

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by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 03:28:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And what does all of that have to do with me? I made one comment in his diary that was well-received, yet you chose to attack me here when I questioned the definition of being hateful.

I have yet to see a clear explanation for that behaviour from you Tracy.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 08:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't the opinion of the rest of the world (none / 0)
though as I have been told now by two different people who have many days, weeks, and months spent in Europe......both Luam and Mad Man in the Marketplace have let it be known that this isn't the opinion of the rest of the world.  I just can't help getting the feeling though Catnip that this is the opinion that Catnip wants the rest of the world to have and Catnip will not be happy until the rest of the world has this opinion!

Here is a summary of the results of the latest Pew Global Attitudes Survey (June 13, 2006):

America's global image has again slipped and support for the war on terrorism has declined even among close U.S. allies like Japan. The war in Iraq is a continuing drag on opinions of the United States, not only in predominantly Muslim countries but in Europe and Asia as well. And despite growing concern over Iran's nuclear ambitions, the U.S. presence in Iraq is cited at least as often as Iran - and in many countries much more often - as a danger to world peace.

A year ago, anti-Americanism had shown some signs of abating, in part because of the positive feelings generated by U.S. aid for tsunami victims in Indonesia and elsewhere. But favorable opinions of the United States have fallen in most of the 15 countries surveyed. Only about a quarter of the Spanish public (23%) expresses positive views of the U.S., down from 41% last year; America's image also has declined significantly in India (from 71% to 56%) and Indonesia (from 38% to 30%).

Now, Tracy, if you want to dispute those results, contact Pew Research because my conversation with you about this is over.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have never guessed that opinion of America would have slipped Catnip....most people understand though that this is a "government" problem and not a people problem, you are not included in that "understanding" though.  I don't really care if the world doesn't continue to hold us up like some sort of jewel because that is "exeptionalism" and I have never subscribed to it.  There isn't any poll out there though where the world claims that America has become a nation of Nazis though......no matter how much bullshit you write attempting to convince people otherwise.  I suppose it's because the rest of the world is out there picking blackberries and living a real life too and they don't have time for this stupid shit!

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by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There isn't any poll out there though where the world claims that America has become a nation of Nazis though......no matter how much bullshit you write attempting to convince people otherwise.

I'll tell you this, Tracy: I have written exactly one post on my blog where I compared what's happening in America with the slide into what happened in Nazi Germany - where I actually mentioned the name 'Hitler'.

Furthermore, and believe me when I say this: it absolutely kills me to stoop to your level but enough is enough.

You are spewing crap about me here with absolutely no basis in fact. What gives you the right to do that? And, more importantly, why are you doing it? If you can't answer that in an honest way that's not full of more speculative bull, then don't even bother.

I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this but seriously, you are one person that, in my not so humble fucking opinion right now, needs to step back and cool down.

What purpose does it serve you to attack me and where have I crossed you to deserve this kind of treatment? And WTF is it around here that some people think I'm the enemy? As far as I'm concerned, Tracy, and because I'm in a very bad mood thanks to your attacks, you can take your prickishness here and shove it where the sun don't shine - and that's what you're doing Tracy - you are being a prick.

I gave you facts, You don't like them. Contact Pew Research. Stop fucking attacking me just to make yourself feel better. It's just pathetic.

I happen to know that you are a much better person than that and I am extremely disappointed - not that you care WTF I think, but that doesn't matter. Someone needs to tell you honestly that you've gone off the rails here. And if that's me and I end up being crucified for it - fine. Neither the soft and fuzzy approach nor the presentation of actual facts seems to affect you.

I don't get mad like this often, but this is beyond fucking ridiculous and you know it.

Do yourself and everyone else a favour and pull yourself together.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 02:29:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have asked Booman to delete the above post which I made wrote by allowing my anger to get the best of me.

I will not give into irrationality by countering it with more of the same.

You have facts about your 'Nazi' allegations, Tracy? Post them.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 02:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Catnip, I can only speak for myself, but I want to inject here that I have welcomed your return here in posting comments and diaries. I have found your writing informative and thought-provoking. Not being privy to any "behind the scenes" activity - that's just one persons opinion.

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert
by NLinStPaul on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 08:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When you mention America are you refering to the people or to uncle Sam???

While in my part of the world,(ie. Argentina) there was a 75% favorable view of America before bush took over and then it went to 75% negative, the main reason for that change was.... the aftermath of Katrina, and how this government treated it's people. And yes, Irak did also have a negative influence.

And please remember what we, the rest of the world say: people are people and governments are governments. Just in case this is not clear, you should not hate the people for what their government does!

by cruz del sur (nicodekoenigsberg@yahoo.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of fundies trying to take over.......is Canada on the brink of the world hating it and if so does that include every single Canadian and if they do take over can I blame you for everything they do Catnip?  Can I show up regularly and spout putrid crap about all Canadians in general and when I'm told my notions are a little bit skewed can I play such a huge victimization role like you do and just crank the crap up a little louder?!?!

PMS Purchase More Shoes
by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey guess what, Tracy. You can pop over to my blog anytime and post whatever you like. I don't have a problem with that.

Can I show up regularly and spout putrid crap about all Canadians in general and when I'm told my notions are a little bit skewed can I play such a huge victimization role like you do and just crank the crap up a little louder?!?!

Hmmm...well this is interesting. What, exactly, did I write to deserve that? No, really. I'd like to know Tracy... tell me.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
as we believe is right. The comments here at the bottom are creating the dissent that we are trying to stop. So...deep breath...

I understand that this is the belief that catnip has expressed. It is fair that it is her belief. I understand that many of us disagree with that belief.

So for purposes of discussion
How do we get past the reactionary response that the comments generate?

What do you and I do now...in the change that we wish to see...to diffuse the attack / counter attack mode?

What did Cindy teach you in Crawford?
What do we do now as we walk the walk and show them how wrong they are?

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do we do now as we walk the walk and show them how wrong they are?

I'd suggest listening and trying to learn rather than putting all your energies into proving someone wrong.

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd suggest listening and trying to learn rather than putting all your energies into proving someone wrong.

See Booman's assessment of DF's writing above. There's nothing to learn from him. It's empty, hateful rhetoric. Nothing more, nothing less.



Kill because somebody was killed. Get killed because he killed. Do you think peace will ever come like that?
by Egarwaen on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 09:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mostly like his stuff, and I always have.  I personally invited him to this site, IIRC.  But sometimes he gets in 'a mood' and he can become obnoxious.

Booman can speak for himself, but I see that his opinion is a bit more nuanced than that. Of course, other than the personal invite, he could be talking about anyone that writes here.

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 09:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It was someone else, and I do not know if that person asked BooMan if they could invite me, and he said, "oh yes, please do!" and for that reason has that incorrect recollection.

But the email I received telling me of the site's existence and inviting me to participate came from another individual. I am sure that all will understand that I do not name that person, as I would not wish for anyone to hold them in any way responsible for my having posted anything that they disagree with.

I think scribe makes a very good point that each of us has the choice to choose what we read.

Reading opinions that differ strongly from your own, or that diverge from your deeply held beliefs, may be a terrific experience for some people, an interesting one for others, and for some, the best choice may be to consistently choose to read things to which you are likely to react positively. There is no "One Size Fits All," but generally speaking, I would suggest either reading it all, or choosing one that you think will be more likely to enjoy!

Just reading one or two lines, or searching for this or that phrase is popular!

As previously stated, I think reading all or none is preferable, but if you must read bits and pieces, it can be very unfair to you, unless you are careful to state, as I am glad to see that some do, that you intentionally didn't read it all. That way, you can avoid the misunderstanding of someone else replying to your reply accusing you of not understanding it, when of course, not reading it, therefore not understanding it, was your intention! It was not something that you had an interest in reading or understanding. And that's OK. Just follow the excellent example of those folks who do make that clear! :)

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 12:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In listening and reading...and yes I've read all of the comments in yesterday's diary through about 3 hours ago...I'm still not understanding.

Generalizations create more generalizations. Words are being said past each other not to each other. Clarification is missing...and I'm trying to understand.

We are none of us completely right.

  • But if we truly believe in our positions...how do we communicate it without emotional responses?
  • How do we explain and support without sweeping statements that do not help either side?


by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how do we communicate it without emotional responses?

I, for one, am not afraid of emotional responses. I think its possible to think AND feel at the same time. And most times when I examine my emotional responses - I learn something new.  


Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yet how do we communicate that emotional response so that others understand when we are limited to written words?

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:25:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Once again, you are trying to figure out how to get others to understand you - rather than trying to understand what others are saying.

You can assure that people won't understand written words if you start off with personal assumptions about people you don't really know.

One of the first things I learned in my training to be a therapist was to repeat what you hear the other person saying to see if you heard/undertand what they are trying to say and give them to opportunity to expound.

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
   "But if we truly believe in our positions...how do  we communicate it without emotional responses? "

I'll take a shot at thins from purely a communications perspective. The aboce is not a realistic goal, IMO, when dealing with human beings (who have emotions!), sometimes strong ones, when it come to issues close to hearts and minds.  

Where our choice comes in is how and when we chose to express those emotions to each other.  And we can also choose the timing: we can choose to let fly when things are at a boil, in which case we don't often have much finesse avaialble to use..or, we can wait till the strong "reactive" phase cools down, when clear thinking and communication is a bit easier.

Next question:

"How do we explain and support without sweeping statements that do not help either side? "

This is another difficult thing to do.  (avoiding all generalizations.) Possible,yes,  but it's a pretty high level commuinication skill that takes time to effectively develop, in my experience.  Especially when emotions are engaged.

So, the choice we have here is what we DO about it, as readers, when it's clear someone is generalizing.   We can  

a) get mad as hell and attack the writer  
b) try to make the writer change her/his writing style
c) quit reading and go on to something else
d) be aware that yes, I am reading generalizations, and continue to read with that fact in mind, to see if there is a message (beyond the generalizing) that might be worthwhile.
2) Offer objective feedback about how generalizations affect me, then let it go.

Sometime it's worth my effort,  sometimes it isn't, but in all cases, as a reader or listener I do have a choice of how I react to  what anyone else writes or says. I also have a clear choice of what I choose to read or who I get close enough to hear.

The only choice I DON'T have is the one to "make" somone ELSE change their ways.
 

ONward!

by scribe (scribe40@comcast.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 

 Having been on the receiving-end of (a), I see a lot of worth in (d).

  ;^)

  Those who oppose "generalizations" and "judging" should really try living without them.  In time, they'll find that this is next-to-impossible since without some of both, (ideally, used with proportion and discretion), life becomes impossible to reason in.

 People who think they do not generalize or think that they do not judge others, just as they are generalized about and are  judged by others, are simply kidding themselves.

"What was truly impressive about the decade past, however, was our unwillingness, as a nation, to learn from our mistakes."

by proximity1 (timesreader@free.fr) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 10:10:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The comments here at the bottom are creating the dissent that we are trying to stop. So...deep breath...
I understand that this is the belief that catnip has expressed. It is fair that it is her belief. I understand that many of us disagree with that belief.

You disagree with my opinion of what is hateful and what is not?

Who'd have thought that would cause "dissent"?

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am trying to understand her emotional and visceral response. Yes, your comments are causing dissent, and I'm trying to understand why.

So...we apparently have reached a point of non-discussion.

Is that what you want?
Is that your choice - to respond to my questions to Tracy with rhetoric?

I really am just trying to understand...

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that what you want?
Is that your choice - to respond to my questions to Tracy with rhetoric?

I must have missed something. Did I misread the flow of the comments? I thought the last comment I responded to was directed at me.

This is confusing.

As for where Tracy is at, well, that's where she's at. I'm not sure why so I hope she'll enlighten me. I've obviously said something that has offended her.

And, you'll have to give me your definition of "rhetoric". I thought I was just writing a normal response.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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