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dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying "we told you so" | 80 comments (80 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 2)

glad you said it.

I've stayed way out of the whole "orange vs everyone" thing but this isn't right.

My Three Cents - 50% more opinion for free

by clammyc (clam227atyahoo) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 11)

Respectfully, I disagree. Cho's shooting spree reportedly had its genesis in anger over how he felt mistreated by a woman or women. It's been reported he was stalking women in the weeks before this shooting.

It's as fair a comparison to make as the one Larry Johnson made comparing the shooting to the horrors of Iraq.

Is Markos to blame for this incident? No, of course not. But violence against women is real. There are reasons why I'm scared to death about my daughter's future in ways that I am not for my son. Attitudes that dismiss, deny or downplay those concerns enables the hatred that leads to such violence, imo.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 3)

I was thinking the same thing when I read that he was a stalker. I think it is relevant since Kos claimed such threats were unlikely to become real. It looks like in this case they came all too real in a very sad way. I don't know who was killed in the dorm, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was two women.

by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 2)

I believe one woman was killed and the male RA (resident hall assistant) who came to her aid.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

apparently i can't write (4.00 / 4)

because i tried to say what steven d said.

i never meant to imply that markos was responsible, nor that the two situations (kathy sierra and va. tech) were identical.

i merely point out that "stalking" and "acting out" can be (not necessarily will be) preludes to violence, and such actions should not be summarily dismissed, as markos did.

that's all. anything else, the reader brought to my essay their own damn self.

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: apparently i can't write (none / 1)

My suggestion would be for you to remove this diary, do some thinking, and come back with a more articulate version of what you are trying to say here. I'm not a defender of Markos, but I think it's creepy to link his name to this horrendous slaughter like he is even remotely to blame for it.

by mythmother (mythmother (at) gmail.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:10:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: apparently i can't write (4.00 / 3)

Oh for the love of Goddess, no one is saying that Kos caused the murders or that Kos condoned the murders. HeyZeus....it is just that Kos said that girls should have a thicker skin when it comes to threats and this guy threatened girls and then acted on it. There is a lesson to be learned. Threats to women, stalkers of women, etc. are bad and we should not brush them off as weak women who can't handle the heat of the kitchen. Sheesh.

by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:23:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: apparently i can't write (none / 1)

No one including me is saying that. I can read, yo.

Here's what I did say....

"I think it's creepy to link his name to this horrendous slaughter..."

And I'm quite familiar with the situation.

by mythmother (mythmother (at) gmail.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll tell ya what I find creepy: (4.00 / 2)

The assholes who stalk and threaten women, whether online or in real life; a fucking cultural Zeitgeist that laughs off such stalking behavior and is dismissive of those who have been on the receiving end of stalking/threats (and if Markos just happens to be part of that Zeitgeist that's just too bad).

Visit Notes From Underground: red state rebel scum since 2003.

by James Benjamin (durito_don at yahoo dot com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 11:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll tell ya what I find creepy: (none / 1)

I myself have been stalked on the internet and even received death threats so I know how it feels.

by mythmother (mythmother (at) gmail.com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:11:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A further lesson (none / 1)

I truly believe that if anyone threatens another in an over the top way that they should be subject to an investigation REGARDLESS of charges being brought. Just as in domestic violence this kind of threat can be view as unacceptable TO THE POINT that the person giving that threat (and here I am not talking about the casual wish that Bush would eat pretzel and the pretzel would work its magic, but the over-the-top threat WITH VISUALS should be viewed as serious.

Grandma Jo

by glitterscale (glitteryscale@yahoo.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes -- and in fact... (4.00 / 16)

I would take this thinking a step further.

Last August, at Virginia Tech, a gunman was on the loose and shot and killed a man. The university immediately went to shutdown until the killer was apprehended and the situation was stabilized.

Yesterday at 7:15 a.m., at the same university, a gunman shot and killed two people. The university did not immediately go to shutdown even though the killer was not in custody.

What was the difference in these two cases? Yesterday's first shooting was considered "domestic." It appeared to be a man killing a woman with whom, allegedly, he had an intimate relationship.

The university's official statements yesterday were very clear about this. They chose not to shut down the university, not to make an immediate emergency announcement that a killer was on the loose, not to cancel classes or use the PA system or close the roads leading in and out of campus. One reason given for this decision was "the incident appeared to be domestic in nature." (I'm quoting from memory; I'm sure most of you saw the same news story yesterday.)

Lesson: If a gunman kills a man and is on the loose, it's an immediate public emergency b/c everyone is in danger. If a gunman kills a woman he allegedly has been intimately involved with, he's barely a news blip. Intimate partner or domestic murder is pretty much normal, in other words.

This is how violence against women is too often regarded. Actual violence, blood spilled and bones broken and lives lost. Yes, dismissive attitudes definitely enable those who threaten women to attack and kill women. Yesterday, those same dismissive attitudes apparently were part of what enabled the killing of an extra 30 people.

The diarist sees the connections. Stephen D and I and surely many others see the connections. Why doesn't everyone see them? That's what baffles me.

by songbh (songbh, yahoo, you know the drill) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:41:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes -- and in fact... (none / 1)

got a link to the august incident? that gives incredible legitimacy to what i'm trying to say here.

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

link to August incident (none / 1)

http://wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=888012

Here are the key passages that illustrate my point:

"He overpowered a deputy and took his pistol. Shots were fired, killing hospital security guard Derrick McFarland, 26, as he tried to help the deputy.

"Police say Morva allegedly shot a police officer on the trail at about 7:30 a.m. Monday near the Blacksburg Public Library and police station."

And:

"The manhunt for Morva prompted Virginia Tech to cancel classes -- the first day of the fall semester -- and lock down the campus."

by songbh (songbh, yahoo, you know the drill) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: link to August incident (none / 1)

thanks, songbh!

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes -- and in fact... (none / 0)

IIRC, the August incident involved an escaped prisoner who had killed 2 police and was thought to be hiding somewhere on the VT campus. That is considerably different from what happened in this case. In the one case, there is a valid reason to assume that the escapee presented a danger across the campus and closing was justified. In yesterday's incident, the first shooting appeared to be a personal affair between two students, with another student shot during the incident. There was absolutely no reason to believe that the killer was going to go somewhere else and kill more people.

In addition, to make this into something involving sexism is a real cheap shot. Do you honestly believe that if the killer had shot his roommate instead of his girlfriend, the campus police would have acted differently?

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 11:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes -- and in fact... (4.00 / 3)

That's exactly what I believe.

You're astonished that I would "make this into something involving sexism." Likewise, I am astonished that everyone does not see the connection between dismissive attitudes towards stalkers, the normalizing of violence against women, and the decision by authorities not to treat Monday's killer on the loose the same way they treated last August's killer on the loose.

August incident: a guy kills two people around 7 a.m. and flees. Classes are canceled and the campus is locked down until he is custody.

Monday incident: a guy kills two people around 7 a.m. and flees. Classes are not canceled and the campus is not locked down.

When questioned about that decision, an authority replies that the first shooting on Monday appeared to be domestic in nature. What could he POSSIBLY mean by that?

"Domestic in nature," when applied to murder with a gun, is code for "a man killed his woman."

When a man kills a sheriff's deputy, he's a dangerous madman on the loose and everyone is in danger. When a man kills his alleged intimate partner -- even if he takes out a bystander as well! -- he is not considered to be a threat to society in general.

by songbh (songbh, yahoo, you know the drill) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent Comparison (none / 1)

songbh. Domestic violence is considered routine and requires no extraordinary measures, while other sorts of violence and threats require extraordinary measures.

by northcountry on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes -- and in fact... (none / 1)

So, let me get this straight. You believe that in the case of the escaped prisoner that had killed two police officers in separate instances and was suspected to be roaming the VT campus, the police said "Oh my, he killed a man! We better close the campus!" Then, in the mist recent case, the police said "Ah heck, he just killed some 'ho', no reason to close the campus. Let's go get coffee."

In the first case, there were logistical reasons to lock down the campus. There were strong reasons to believe that the escapee was holed up on the campus and a lockdown made the search easier and more effective. In the second case, the police had no reason to believe that the shooter was going to go somewhere else on campus and randomly start shooting people.

Suppose the first killing has taken place in an office building just outside the campus? Should they have closed the campus then?

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes -- and in fact... (none / 1)

One more point: If the situation had been reversed, if the shooter had been a woman who had just shot her boyfriend, IMHO, the actions of the campus police would have been the same.

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes. (none / 1)

When an armed robbery happens in the neighborhood of the elementary school where my sister teaches first grade, the school immediately goes to lockdown until the suspect is apprehended. She tells me this happens on a fairly regular basis.

When so much as a sighting of a person with a gun happened near my son's daycare recently, the town police immediately notified all area schools so that they could go to lockdown for the safety of their students and staff.

A large university is a whole lot more complicated to shut down, but two bloodly corpses is also a whole lot more severe than an armed robbery or a gun sighting. They managed to get the word out and cancel classes that day in August. When asked why similar actions were not taken earlier on Monday morning, the official responding said that it was because the killings appeared to be domestic in nature.

Does that mean the police didn't care about the dead woman and her dead friend? ("just some 'ho, let's go get coffee"?) No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the "domestic in nature" reaction was the cops fitting those first two murders into a cultural framework based on misogyny, which regards male-on-female-allegedly-intimate-partner murder as less abnormal and less of a public emergency than escaped-convict-kills-two-men murder.

You and others keep defending that decision not to lockdown the campus by saying the police had no reason to believe the killer would kill anyone else. Let's ask the question: what permitted that assumption to seem reasonable at the time? Hint: It is something to do with that "domestic in nature" comment.

I am suggesting that the answer to that question will lead directly to insights regarding the way our society inteprets violence by men against women they consider to be theirs.

by songbh (songbh, yahoo, you know the drill) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes. (none / 0)

"When so much as a sighting of a person with a gun happened near my son's daycare recently, the town police immediately notified all area schools so that they could go to lockdown for the safety of their students and staff."

Where the heck do you live, Mayberry? Sorry, songbh, but I think you are full of crap.

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes. (none / 1)

In a thread about connections between cyber-threats and murder, you ask me to name where I live?

I'm disengaging from this discussion now.

by songbh (songbh, yahoo, you know the drill) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes. (none / 0)

ROTFLMAO!!

That was a rhetorical question. I would have thought that the "Mayberry" would have given you some inkling as to that.

You're right...time to "disengage."

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes. (none / 0)

Detroit Free Press

FYI

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes. (none / 0)

In the case of the escaped prisoner, "More than 24 agencies, including officers from the FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration, Virginia State Police and neighboring police departments, blanketed the campus and its surroundings"

You think they did that just cause the escapee killed a man rather than a woman?

by orogeny on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes -- and in fact... (none / 1)

the fact the cops went after the boyfriend of the woman Cho killed in the dorm appears to support your premise.

however, precedent indicates violent crimes against women are more often than not committed by boyfriends/husbands.

the BIG mistake the university and the cops made in this case was to assume this is always the case. five minutes of research would have shown Cho lived in the dorm-- and already was on local law enforcement's radar as a threat.
therefore Cho should have been quickly seen as a suspect.

instead the cops made an assumption, went after the wrong guy, and neglected to close/evacuate the university. this was a major mistake and will lead to major lawsuits against the university.

by Superpole on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 2)

Respectfully, I disagree. The valid points that Skippy might like to highlight are undermined by this ghoulish post. What good comes out of making people, who otherwise agree with his criticism of the DailyKos, recoil at the piss poor taste that this person, Skippy, chose to exhibit here.

I spent my day at work reading about how the degenerate fucks who constitute the far right wing in this country are trying to turn the massacre into something about gun laws or something about teaching evolution in schools or something about abortion rights. Skippy turns it into something about Kos.

Jesus fucking Christ already, Fuck Kos. Give it up. Stop reading it. Don't sign up and don't read it. I never did, and if I've suffered ill effects from my lack of Daily Kos I haven't discovered them. Fuck Daily Kos in all the sick ways that even the sickest and most depraved perverts couldn't think up to fuck things and try to find a way to argue your point without making people, who generally agree with you, hate you and your shtick. Give it the fuck up. There are whole continents of ways to argue that the Kos' bullshit on Kathy Sierra was for shit without becoming a ghoulish fuck.

by Chris on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 11:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

gee, i really didn't mean to be ghoulish (4.00 / 2)

i'm not trying to use the tragedy to make points.

but it's like how the gun enthusiasts would deride gun control advocates for "using" the columbine tragedy to advance their cause.

i'm not pleased that the va tech massacre happened.

but it's so incredibly on point about what kos has been denying about harrassment of people possibly leading to tragedy, i felt the need to make the analysis.

sorry if i seemed unfeeling. i certainly thought that i made the points in my essay that i felt it was tragic, and not entirely identical but relevant to the points kos was purposely avoiding.

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: gee, i really didn't mean to be ghoulish (none / 0)

"i'm not trying to use the tragedy to make points."

You are using the tragedy to make points. Your effort is really besides the point, but I'll certainly take your word that you weren't trying. An effortless use of tragedy it is. Hurray!

"if i am guilty of anything, perhaps it's bad timing."

Pretty much.

by Chris on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:01:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i am not (none / 1)

i am not using tragedy to make points.

i am saying that this tragedy is a terrible example of how dismissing threats (as kos implied) leads to tragedy.

but i've said this before. you're not going to concede, and neither will i.

i stand by my position.

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i am not (none / 0)

you're not going to concede, and neither will i

Convince me and I will. I'm not an unreasonable person unwilling to concede a point. Writing that you are "not using tragedy to make points" in comments to a post where you, in my mind, seem to be specifically using a tragedy to make points seems a tough climb, though I've often been called a fool.

by Chris on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

also (4.00 / 2)

i didn't "turn it into something" against kos.

in my mind, i honestly feel it's legitimately connected.

kos dismisses threats against a woman by people who are acting out their anger.

more and more evidence is showing up that cho was also acting out his anger, and look what happened.

i'm not saying one necessarily follows the other.

but there are definate similarities, and i think i made a legitimate position.

it's not comfortable talking about men killing women.

especially if it really happened, and recently.

if i am guilty of anything, perhaps it's bad timing.

but it's not like i used the va. tech tragedy to rail about kos dumping me off his blogroll, or not allowing 9/11 conspiracy theories to be discussed.

i'm sorry if i offended you, but i stand by my work.

and i apologize to armando for calling him an enabler.

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: also (none / 0)

"i didn't "turn it into something" against kos."

I disagree.

"and i apologize to armando for calling him an enabler."

Glad to hear it. The ninth step is an important part of recovery, but I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about here. Fake it till you make it brother.

"i'm sorry if i offended you, but i stand by my work."

No if about it. You offended me. I'm rarely bothered or disturbed by anything, but this post really did disturb me. I can't put my finger on it, but something about writing seriously about the bullshit cartoon nightmare that is Daily Kos in the context of a mass murder just doesn't sit right. Whatever. Skippy, I'm sorry, but you really lost me on this one.

by Chris on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i didn't turn it into somethig against kos" (none / 1)

indeed? let's see:

starting with the title...*dear markos:...*pretty damn clear from that reading that that;s exactly what you did.

l do not doubt your sincerity about this issue, but imo, what chris is pointing out, and seems to be getting lost in the dialog, is that this was a cheap shot.

no one here has derided your concerns, which are shared by all, if l may be so bold. but this smacks of vindictiveness....bordering on vendetta, especially in light of this:

"but it's not like i used the va. tech tragedy to rail about kos dumping me off his blogroll, or not allowing 9/11 conspiracy theories to be discussed."

there are certainly points to be made here regarding the underlying issues, but kos isn't one of them.

this is in no way a defense of kos' actions/statements regarding any of this, but, with all due respect, stop digging, you already need a ladder.

the revolution will not be televised...

by dada on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:32:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 3)

Chris, I love pandas. But Skippy has a point, a damn good point. Maybe you missed the big brouhaha, but basically Kos blew off a woman's fear over highly graphic images of her death. Kos said she was whiny and should STFU. Kos never apologized.

Here is a case where stalking of a woman by a man may have been a motivating factor and I would be surprised to hear that he had a thing for the woman he killed initially. In fact, he may have continued his rampage because he knew after the first attack that this was his last chance to get back.

To point it out to Kos that this may well be another example of violence against women that he so summarily dismissed is both reasonable and eloquent. Skippy is not using the tragedy in a bad way, he is showing how Kos just doesn't see that women are stalked, raped, and killed, daily. He does not condone the attack, he shows how it fits into our recent discussions. I don't see Kos saying he was wrong and that he apologizes for belittling a victim of stalking.

by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:18:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 0)

Kamakhya, sadly I didn't miss as much of the big brouhaha I might have liked. I agree completely that Kos' remarks on the subject were for shit and that he deserves as much ridicule as we can muster. His site should have died a few years ago, and maybe (though doubtfully) now it will. My problem here is specifically with Skippy's ghoulish post and Skippy's ghoulish post alone.

by Chris on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (4.00 / 3)

It's ghoulish to point out that there's a war on women, that that war just claimed a bunch more lives, and that even the "good guys" contribute to that war?

by Chris Clarke (cclarke@faultline.org) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 11:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 0)

No, not at all. But that's not the post skippy wrote.

by Chris on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 1)

I just don't see the post as ghoulish. I see it as using a real event as an example of why his post was an egregious disregard of what happens when we disregard undue attention to women. It was on point without distracting from the tragedy that VT is.

by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 1)

it is coming out that indeed cho had an argument the day before with the woman who was his first victim.

it's not ghoulish to examine tragedies and why they occur in an attempt to understand, and hopefully, prevent future occurrences.

it's ghoulish to enjoy such. and i specifically stated at the beginning that i take no joy in pointing this out.

by skippybkroo (skippybkroo@aol.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 0)

I gotta say, skip, that I agree with pretty much everything Chris has to say about this post. I'm not as hostile to Daily Kos as Chris is, but his advice is solid. Let it go. There is no universe where it is appropriate to use the tragedy in Virginia Tech to call out Markos for his dumbass post on Kathy Sierra.

by BooMan on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 11:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 0)

Steven, I'm sorry to leave an expletive laden, disorganized diatribe in response to one of your comments, but it seemed like the logical place in the conversation to add my comments. My disgust is with skippy.

by Chris on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:18:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 1)

I wasn't offended. I'm thinking over my own involvement with DKos right now, btw. Not sure yet if I will continue to post there, though if I do, I won't be posting any GBCW stuff about it.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying (none / 1)

I agree about the violence towards women being real, and it is a very important issue.

And I have no stake in this fight against markos either - if it was anyone else on the receiving end for so long by so many for a stupid and wrong point I would say the same thing.

But this isn't about markos. I believe that TheManWithNoPoint had a diary railing against those who used this to make a point about gun control, or about anything else. Especially so soon.

I don't see how this is different.

My Three Cents - 50% more opinion for free

by clammyc (clam227atyahoo) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

dear markos: it give us no pleasure saying "we told you so" | 80 comments (80 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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