Booman Tribune





Find textbooks at Alibris!

NOTE: Overstock bests Amazon's prices and is "blue."

THE BOOKS WITH "BUZZ":
______________

Senator Edward M. Kennedy tells his extraordinary personal story:

True Compass: A Memoir
by Edward M. Kennedy.

Read Barack Obama's vision for America:

The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream
by Barack Obama

Boran2 and maryb2004 recommend:

The Big Over Easy: A Nursery Crime
by Jasper Fforde

Must-have information for all presidents-and citizens-of the twenty-first century?

Physics for Future Presidents: The Science behind the Headlines
Richard A. Muller

rae recommends:

Dark Ages America: The Final Phase of Empire
by Morris Berman.

On BooMan’s shelf:

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln
by Doris Kearns Goodwin

This looks interesting:

Adventure Divas
by Holly Morris

Here’s a good one from
Elizabeth Gilbert:

Eat Pray Love
by Elizabeth Gilbert

"Crash" * Best Motion Picture, Academy Awards * Only $11.79 at Overstock * 2006 SAG Winner, Best Ensemble

Check out
Powell's new section:
NEW FAVORITES

Selected new arrivals at 30% off

Recommended by Indianadem and ejmw:
The Conscience of a Liberal
by Paul Wellstone

From northcountry’s bookshelf:

The New Golden Age:
The Coming Revolution Against
Political Corruption and Economic Chaos
by Ravi Batra

A novel about contractors in Iraq from the woman that runs The Spy That Billed Me:

Outsourced: A Novel
from RJ Hillhouse.


Great Deals
----- * ^ * -----

Find mystery novels by Nancy Pickard ("Kansas")



Challenging Empire: How People, Governments, and the UN Defy US Power by Phyllis Bennis (interviewed on DN!)


Featured by Keith Olbermann, New (Powell's Sale): Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum (whose other books merit serious consideration)


"Explosive" State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration
by James Risen


The book the CIA doesn't want you to read: Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA's Key Field Commander
Larry Johnson's review


BT's all-time best seller:

PERMACULTURE:
A Designers' Manual

$79.95 * Sale: $59.95


Unequal Sisters: A Multicultural Reader in U.S. Women's History (Third Edition)


The Undercover Economist: Exposing Why the Rich Are Rich, the Poor Are Poor And Why You Can Never Buy a Decent Used Car!


The Worst Hard Time: The Untold Story of Those Who Survived the Great American Dust Bowl
by Timothy Egan


Green Press Initiative
----- * ^ * -----


Journalistas: 100 Years of the Best Writing and Reporting by Women Journalists by Eleanor Mills * NYT review


Bury Me Standing: the Gypsies & Their Journey


1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus



Brokeback Mountain
by Annie Proulx
----- * ^ * -----
Check out Powell's
"At The Movies"


Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World by Noam Chomsky (Power & Terror: Post 9-11 Talks)


The Price of Privilege:

How Parental Pressure and
Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of
Disconnected and Unhappy Kids

by Madeline Levine


Save 35-70% on
name brand clothing,
footwear, and outdoor gear
at SierraTradingPost.com

:





We listened to PEN American Center's "State of Emergency" and found 1940s books by Curzio Malaparte only at Alibris. (Selection (MP3) excerpted from "The Skin.")

Alibris - Books You Thought You'd Never Find
Banned Books * Are you a fan of Film Noir, Art House, Documentaries or Hong Kong Action? * Searching for a long-lost children's book or a first printing of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue on vinyl? Find it at Alibris!

:
:
www.Patagonia.com


Display:
According to this literature, men are hard-wired to be turned on by men or women but not by both, but what turns women on is much less specific.

Yeah, not a big fan of these studies. They look at adult behavior, and there's no feasible way to control for social pressures etc. From my personal point of view as a bio geek, they're trying to say things that are frankly kind of bunk, when they get into "hard-wired" sort of talk.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Wed Aug 29th, 2007 at 07:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Hard wired" is just an expression; I don't think many of researchers mean it very literally.

But I agree that the studies are not that conclusive by themselves, since they all seem to involve just hooking men and women up to various monitoring devices and then showing them different kinds of porn.

Still, I think they're suggestive, and there might be something to them, since according to the NY Times, the saying "gay, straight, or lying" comes from the gay community itself.

Republicans are like fetuses: both are incapable of thought. That's why Republicans are against abortion.

by Alexander on Wed Aug 29th, 2007 at 07:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, "gay, straight, or lying" coming from the gay community doesn't make it true -- there's an amazing amount of anti-bisexual sentiment in the gay community (it's gotten a little better, but it's still pretty amazing sometimes).

re: "hard-wired", I don't know if the researchers themselves mean it, but it's certainly taken that way in the mass media, and I have serious problems with that. You can argue that men are more solid about their sexuality than women, but if you try to assign that, say, a biological or essentialist component, you're completely ignoring the hugely increased social stigma surrounding male homosexuality and/or (maybe even moreso) bisexuality.

Desire is a funny thing -- it's not rational/conscious, but neither is it necessarily wholly essential/biological. There's almost certainly a really  huge -- and nearly impossible to clarify or firmly identify -- social component to it.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Wed Aug 29th, 2007 at 07:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Male and female desire are different, and I think that means that the differences between straight men and gays on the one hand and straight women and Lesbians on the other will manifest themselves in different ways.

For exmaple, a main stimulus for mail arousal is visual, and there is essentially no overlap between pornography directed at hetero men and at gays. What arouses a woman tends to be less concrete.

I don't think there's much of a social component to how visually based male arousal is.

Republicans are like fetuses: both are incapable of thought. That's why Republicans are against abortion.

by Alexander on Wed Aug 29th, 2007 at 10:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think there's much of a social component to how visually based male arousal is.

I think you're awfully quick, then, to assume that the social/environmental/psychological can't have strong effects on the physical body -- we treat them as separate things, but they're not always. But leaving that aside for a moment, it's a pretty big leap from "men and women have different responses to different kinds of stimuli" to "men and women have different natural sexual preferences". Desire is an incredibly complex thing.

I don't claim to know where any pattern of desire comes from, and I don't honestly think it's a very answerable question. But I am not impressed by studies that look at differences in adult patterns and assume them to be some sort of "natural state". There are a lot of problems with that sort of thing.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't assume that "the social/environmental/psychological can't have strong effects on the physical body". Why should I? I am not involved with the medical-pharmaceutical industry.

And I don't come to "men and women have different natural sexual preferences" from "men and women have different responses to different kinds of stimuli", in other words, the recent experimental studies. I come to it from evolutionary biology, specifically, the work of Donald Symons.

Republicans are like fetuses: both are incapable of thought. That's why Republicans are against abortion.

by Alexander on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:55:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An interesting way of looking at this question is to look what happens to sexual behavior in places where there are either strong taboos on homosexuality or very lax rules about it.

I think it is obvious that people will engage in less sexual activity if it comes with higher potential costs.  The easiest thought experiment is to ask how people would change their sexual choices if they suddenly discovered that a) there was no legally available contraception, or (since this is a thought experiment) no contraception whatsoever, and b) that there was strong social pressure to marry anyone with whom you were discovered to have had sexual relations.

But would people actually have less desire?  

In Ancient Athens, women were basically shuttered within their homes, except for special occasions.   There is not much literature about it, but I assume lesbianism was common and accepted.  What is certain is that male gay relationships, at least among the aristocracy, were accepted as normal, and even idealized as superior to relationships with women.  The shame component was significantly diminished.  How did this effect sexual behavior?  How did it effect desire?  

I don't know the answers, but it gets to the social v. hardwiring question.

It also gets to the social policy question.  Before you can answer the question of whether certain sexual practices should be discouraged through social policy (like criminalizing contraception) you have to ask whether it can actually change behavior...or will it just push it underground...create a black market, etc.  

One area where we regulate is based on age.  The hope is that by creating strong social taboos and legal penalties for having sexual relations with teenager minors, people will not do it.  And, it is also hoped, that people will not want to do it.

Since most people agree on the wisdom of this goal, the question is about the effectiveness of the taboo and the laws on changing both behavior and desire.  

But for more controversial taboos and laws that are sought by social conservatives (about homosexuality, sex out of marriage, and contraception) we could possibly make social science arguments that say, even if this were a desirable goal, it won't work all that well.

by BooMan on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are problems with your approach, though, and I'm not going to get into all of them. Examining taboo, etc, across cultures is sometimes a useful exercise and is a staple of some fields, but it does have its limits in what it can tell you about humanity in general or about culture specifically. Basically, there are a huge number of variables in a culture, and you can't control for them -- so it's certainly not as if Athens was just like here except that it had different taboos about sexuality. It was a totally different place and time that you're talking about, and so you really can't move from "they had x different attitude" to "that led to y different behavior". It's not as though all cultural changes happen the same way in response to the same factors -- this isn't algebra, there aren't universal rules, particularly. Cultural comparisons are IMO something that have to be done with a clear eye on their problems, and using them to firmly ascertain what is "hardwired" is pretty flawed, as far as I'm concerned.
by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well...that's true.  There are limitations...but that is what standards in social science are for.

Going back to the thought experiment:

If in Ancient Athens, it was thought that the most meaningful sexual relationships were only possible between men, then what did that do to the ostensibly straight guy?  

If you take me, for example...I'm straight.  I could live a thousand years and I'm never going to be tempted to fool around with a guy.  

But what kind of effect would it have on me if my peers, people I really respected, were fairly unanimous that sex with women was a spiritually empty exercise and that I should try men if I wanted to really experience something sublime?

The answer to that question gets to the heart of the effectiveness of taboo (and laws) in changing sexual behavior.  And I don't know the answer to that question.  Could it change my desire patterns?  Maybe.  I just don't know.  

by BooMan on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
then what did that do to the ostensibly straight guy?  

How many of these were there? Because you had your marriage with a woman, of course, for practical reasons, but you also had your male lover, generally speaking, no? So who's "straight"?

This is part of why what you're doing here is problematic to me -- Athenians didn't have a concept of "straight" or "gay", and -- while I'm not really an expert on Athenian history, it seems to me that men's sexuality was conceptualized as a bit more fluid through time. You're trying to apply our modes of sexual relationship to the context of ancient Athens. It just doesn't really work.

If you were an ancient Athenian, you would probably have an entirely different concept of self and sex (among many other things) than you do -- so trying to place yourself, as the current you, within that framework -- maybe a fun thought exercise, but not very useful for figuring out anything about human sexuality, IMO.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I'm not trying to place myself in ancient Athens, I'm wondering what I would be like if I grew up in a society like this one, but in which my peers held Athenian views about sexuality.  Would it be possible to change my sexual orientation and/or desire patterns (fantasies) etc, just through social pressure?

I suspect not, but I don't know.

by BooMan on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 12:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Menu
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended World Diaries
US General: Dutch Gays in Military to Blame for Massacre...
by Oui (NL) - Mar 19
7 comments

Thursday Dog Bog (with Toy Box)
by keres (AU) - Mar 18
16 comments

"Sic Semper Tyrannis"
by Oui (NL) - Mar 18
1 comment


Listed on BlogShares

© 2010 Booman Tribune
Yoga in Pottstown
Yoga in Douglassville
Yoga in Morgantown