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Rhetoric Had Nothing To Do With It | 23 comments (23 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The past 24 hours (none / 0)

"this is the separation of church and state."

Pardon me?! How is praying - and praying to one particular god - into official State business in any way a separation of church and state? It seems to me it is the exact opposite. It seems to me that it is inserting church into state events. And I wonder just how specifically Christian this particular prayer from a Christian fundamentalist preacher will be. So, it might or might not constitute the State showing preference for a particular religion.

"There is a tradition of getting a spiritual person to read a prayer"

Not exactly. Unless I am mistaken, there is a tradition of getting a well-known CHRISTIAN pastor to read a prayer.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 11:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The past 24 hours (none / 0)

uuuuuUUUFF! Another example of trying to do too many things at once in too much of a hurry, and a lousy, inattentive job of proofreading.

How is making praying part of official State events in any way a separation of church and state?

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 11:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's simple (none / 0)

There's a prayer, there's a poem, there's a speech, there's a parade. The prayer has the same ceremonial function as the speech, the poem, the parade.

It is removing prayer from the center to the same symbolic value as a juggler.

by dataguy on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 11:24:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's simple (none / 0)

Poem's, speeches, and parades are not by definition religious items. Prayer by definition is religious. Poems, speeches, and parades may be secular, and in fact usually are. Prayer cannot be secular, and therefore never is.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 01:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what is uuuuuUUUUUUf (none / 0)

Is that Arabic?

My daughter has finished her first semester of Arabic at U of I. She is a poli sci student who is interested in the Middle East.

by dataguy on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 11:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what is uuuuuUUUUUUf (none / 0)

It is a very colloquial expression of frustration or annoyance, so she won't learn it in her Modern Standard Arabic class, or probably even in most conversation classes.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 01:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The 1st Amendment (none / 0)

speaks ONLY of "make no law establishing a religion" or something like that. There is, in point of fact, nothing in that Amendment about ABDJURING religion entirely.

by dataguy on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 11:30:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 1st Amendment (none / 0)

I believe there is also something in the Constitution about the government not showing preference for one religion over another - no time to look it up right now. By having a specifically Christian prayer at a VERY public VERY official government function the government is showing a distinct preference.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 01:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 1st Amendment (none / 0)

We haven't heard the prayer yet. If it turns out to be specifically Christian, I will agree with you. I believe that a prayer can be offered in a nonsectarian manner.

"Oh most high"

"Oh heavenly one"

and it can close with

"In your name we pray" or

"In the name of the eternal"

those are acceptable.

Will Warren do that? I have no idea.

by dataguy on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 04:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 1st Amendment (none / 0)

Oh most high, oh heavenly one, "the eternal", and "in your name" are all specifically monotheistic, and therefor not nonsectarian.

In addition, "in your name we pray" can be construed as a reference to Jesus.

Further, any prayer excludes non-theists.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 05:16:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is a long, long, long, long tradition (none / 0)

of prayers at public functions. We are simply acknowledging that.

by dataguy on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 at 11:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Rhetoric Had Nothing To Do With It | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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