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Plan 2012 | 50 comments (50 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

I don't believe in the 2012 plan.

And I don't take Garin at his word.

I agree that there is a lot of magical thinking going on but most of this is the equivalent of sports trash talk in my opinion. She needs to keep as close as possible to Obama in delegates and popular vote, even if it's clear she won't pass him. And she isn't going to do that by conceding that she probably isn't going to be able do it. People don't like to vote for clear losers. But they'll vote for you if they think you have a slim chance.

Her entire plan is to look like she never gives up and that's why they should pick her as the nominee. Hence it is necessary to her plan that she and her team concede nothing and engage in magical thinking.

Your conclusion - which I interpret as advice to conspiracy theorists to wait until after June 3 before drawing a conclusion - is fine.

But I doubt you'll convince the denizens of blogosphere who like nothing better than wallowing in conspiracy theories rather than figuring out the strategy a campaign may be using.

by maryb2004 on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 11:22:13 AM EST

Finally...a voice of reason! (4.00 / 2)

What? Did you get lost and end up here?

Welcome.

Of course she is not aiming at 2012. Why would she risk what will quite likely happen to this country if McCain takes over and continues to implement what BushCo has started here? There will BE no "U.S.A.", or at least not one that is recognizable from a mugshot taken in say 1992. It's barely recognizable now.

1-She thinks that she can win against McCain.

2-She thinks that Obama will lose against McCain.

3-She thinks that if she proves #2 to the Democratic Party...by creating a virtual stalemate in the primary system because that is now the only option left to her...the Dems will tapdance the rules and nominate her. And she may be right.

Face it, folks.

She is running AS McCain to some degree. Not necessarily in terms of policies, just in terms of image. Older, more experienced in the ins and outs of DC, shot and a beer with the fellas, etc.

Ma Clinton equals Granpa Mac.

Bet on it.

And...it's working.

The Dem pros WILL hear this argument.

Look...I beat Obama once I found out HOW to beat him. So will McCain. It's not the score during the exhibition season, it's the score during crunch time that matters in THIS game. And the score in big states. FUCK the rules!!! Ya wanna win or lose?

They will listen and then they will consider their options in the light of old fashioned self-interest, most of them.

"I saw my opportunities and I took 'em."-George Washington Plunkitt, old-time Tammany Hall ward heeler

You think that things have changed sine the late 1800s? Not in politics they haven't. The hustlers still run the scene.

Is she "right"?

About being able to beat MCain? About Obama's inability to do so? About the tactics that she has used?

I don't know.

Politics is a blood sport.

If she wins...the nomination and the Presidency...then yes, she was right.

Tactically correct.

If not...no.

We shall soon see.

By June I think. If not sooner.

The DNC will force some hands by June.

Why?

Self-interest.

Watch.

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 01:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Finally...a voice of reason! (none / 0)

I mostly agree with you AG in terms of the psychology of this thing. But, the point of my post is that if she doesn't concede at the end of the nominating process (assuming she hasn't basically run the table at the end and gained at least a popular vote lead) then I'll have to concede that Plan 2012 is in effect.

by BooMan on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 01:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

The problem with that is this: Clinton is a pragmatist. She knows she cannot win without multiple events in the "magical thinking" category suddenly becoming truth.

And yet she engages in this head-in-the-clouds garbage anyway, knowing Obama will be the nominee. Why?

Two things. Whoever inherits the White house in 2008 will be a one-term President (the economy, Iraq, Iran, etc will assure that) and Clinton is doing everything she can to sour her supporters on Obama, portraying him as the enemy, rather than McCain.

Plan 2012 is the only thing that makes sense, and you'd better believe there are a lot of Obama supporters out there who believe it as the truth.

More at Zandar vs. The Stupid.

by Zandar1 on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 11:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

Plan 2012 is the only thing that makes sense

uh. no.

and you'd better believe there are a lot of Obama supporters out there who believe it as the truth.

Oh, I believe it.

Hillarybots don't own the franchise on being irrational.

by maryb2004 on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 12:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

So what, we're supposed to just chalk up her actions to "she's just trying really hard and nobody's got the guts to tell her it's not working?"

Which is more irrational, Hillary still being in the race, or Plan 2012?

Both of them seem pretty insane to me, but given that an equal amount of wishful thinking invades both options, it doesn't really matter which one Hillary's actually doing, both are doing a bang-up job of putting McCain in the White House.

More at Zandar vs. The Stupid.

by Zandar1 on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 12:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

So what, we're supposed to just chalk up her actions to "she's just trying really hard and nobody's got the guts to tell her it's not working?"

uh, no. Did you even bother to read my comment or did you just jump in because you noticed an off-key voice in the Obama choir?

Which is more irrational to believe? Plan 2012.

Why would she still be in the race? Because she believes she would be the best candidate against McCain, she can't believe enough people don't see that AND (most importantly) because she hasn't been mathematically eliminated yet. It's improbable that the math will work for her. But not impossible.

Until enough delegates (pledged and super) are in Obama's column she's not mathematically eliminated.

Obama supporters like to say that Obama has it locked up. He doesn't. It is probable that he's going to win but it is not absolutely a sure thing. It is probable that Hillary is going to lose but it isn't absolutely a sure thing. I doubt she will quit until it is a sure thing. If we're lucky she'll agree its a sure thing when they endorse and not require that they actually cast their votes at the convention.

by maryb2004 on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 12:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

She's not mathematically eliminated yet?

We've been down that road before. I think Hillary Clinton is infinitely preferable to John Angrypants McCain. But in the end, any argument for Hillary comes down to wishful thinking.

The math doesn't work unless Clinton alienates millions of black voters. Period.

More at Zandar vs. The Stupid.

by Zandar1 on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 04:03:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plan 2012 (none / 0)

I don't entirely agree with your assessment. I do agree that the next President is going to inherit a real mess. I believe that a Democrat will do better than Bush III at cleaning up that mess. If Americans are seeing progress by the end of 2011 the odds are good they'll stay with Obama. If not, all bets are off.

It won't be easy, but I would rather have a President up there telling us that it won't be easy, but that it will be possible if we all pitch in and sacrifice and work together, than a President who pretends everything is sunshine and lollipops and rainbows and unicorns.

Unable/Unstable '08

by Omir the Storyteller (omir.the.storyteller -CAT- gmail -DOG- com) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 12:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Plan 2012 | 50 comments (50 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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