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Deep Thought | 49 comments (49 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Deep Thought (4.00 / 2)

Jonathan Chait explored this today. Quote is the last few paragraphs of his blog post. Read the whole thing.

[ ... ]
Moreover, it's obviously true that Obama not campaigning, organizing, or advertizing in those states hurt him, and helped the more familiar candidate in Clinton. She decided to campaign to change the rules only after it became her interest to do so.
This gambit by Clinton is simply an attempt to steal the nomination. It's obviously not going to work, because Democratic superdelegates don't want to commit suicide. But this episode is very revealing about Clinton's character. I try not to make moralistic characterological judgments about politicians, because all politicians compromise their ideals in the pursuit of power. There are no angels in this business. Clinton's gambit, however, truly is breathtaking.
If she's consciously lying, it's a shockingly cynical move. I don't think she's lying. I think she's so convinced of her own morality and historical importance that she can whip herself into a moralistic fervor to support nearly any position that might benefit her, however crass and sleazy. It's not just that she's convinced herself it's okay to try to steal the nomination, she has also appropriated the most sacred legacies of liberalism for her effort to do so. She is proving herself temperamentally unfit for the presidency.
--Jonathan Chait

by RandyH on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 09:08:33 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (4.00 / 6)

It kills me to acknowledge that the people who have always disliked Bill and Hillary had reasons.

Now I do.

She's reminding me more and more of Bubble Bush every day.

by Cee on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 09:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (4.00 / 5)

I actually had to admit to a Republican friend of mine that he was right about them the whole time. He didn't care about Lewinsky or Whitewater or any of that. He told me, "The Clintons are dishonest hacks with no principles or souls." And he was right.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 09:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (4.00 / 2)

Jeez, I thought their hackery and wankery was obvious in 1993 when they shoved NAFTA through. That by itself convinced me to sit 1996 out at the top of the ballot.

I've never understood the reverence the Clintons (especially Bill) get in the left blogosphere. They were NEVER on our side. EVER. Maybe it's an age thing, I dunno.

by lacerda on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:55:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

EXACTLY.

I've never understood it either.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Well, I was nine years old in 1993, so I wouldn't have known. The Clinton I grew up knowing was a competent guy who would lie about oral sex (so, on the whole, not bad). NAFTA was sort of out of my universe until about 2003. The Clinton I see now is, along with his wife, an incompetent hack who'll prey upon the worst in people, and who can't make an argument without a straw man. It's sad.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 08:06:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Lacerda,

I'm with you on NAFTA, WTO...you name it.
I protested out in Seattle and couldn't get back in my hotel because Clinton administration staff were staying there.

I've always said that Bill was the best republican president in my lifetime.

by Cee on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

It's an important point of agreement we can have with Republicans come the fall cycle. United in disgust at such liars.

I heard Hillary say of Barack, "he didn't have to take his name off the ballot in Michigan. He chose to do that."

He HAD to do that to maintain credibility with the party. She didn't f'ing care.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (4.00 / 5)

It is a combination of factors.

First is this:

I think she's so convinced of her own morality and historical importance that she can whip herself into a moralistic fervor to support nearly any position that might benefit her, however crass and sleazy. It's not just that she's convinced herself it's okay to try to steal the nomination, she has also appropriated the most sacred legacies of liberalism for her effort to do so.

Second: It's galling to her to lose what she feels is her destiny and what she feels she is entitled to--ESPECIALLY to a "newcomer," and a Black one at that! Like idredit said upthread, it's fine for Black folks to work for them, but to be in charge? Surely, you jest!

Third: The DLC faction thought they had tamped down on all that activism/movement stuff. Part of bringing "change" is changing how the Democratic Party works. Some things, they can't change: 50 state strategy and party building/organization they can't mess with as much because it is shown to work and the state chairs like having resources. But there are other ways they want to revert back to form, and now Obama is in the way of all that.

Fourth: I'll bet it chafes Bill's backside RAW that Barack Obama has been embraced as the second coming of JFK. That was supposed to be him. Further, the reason Obama's observation that Bill didn't change the direction of the country as Reagan did (not for the better, let's be clear) back in Feb cut to the bone was NOT because they fought his policies. Based on his trade and welfare policies, for example, he showed to be rather enamored of them.

Rather, it's because Obama basically called him on the fact that while Bill played within the Reaganesque parameters on how to govern, he didn't change the game. Bill Clinton was the best republican president we've ever had, the saying goes. Co-opting some republican issues is not transformational change. It's accepting the republican framework; even if you play the game better it is still by their rules. Bill didn't change the game and Bill knows it. Obama can. Bill knows that, too. And it's killing him.

I truly believe that he doesn't want any other Democrat to be successful--both so that the DLC can say "See, you have to run this game to win" AND so that he can say that only the Clintons have a lock on winning presidential campaigns.

Given all those factors, Hillary is not just temperamentally unfit for the presidency; she is totally unfit for it. We can't afford any more unwise policies or family drama played out in the WH. We really, finally, should have had enough.

Can't hear ya, Peach!

by AP on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 10:15:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

I don't think the Clintons are racist. I really don't. I won't agree with that argument ever.

But I think they are more than willing to use racism as a tool to slice and divide the party, and for that reason alone, the party should have excommunicated them.

They are not good Democrats, period. I wouldn't want them anywhere near the oval office ever again.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 1)

I don't think the Clintons are racist...

...But I think they are more than willing to use racism as a tool to slice and divide the party

That's kind of like saying that a man isn't a rapist even though he raped a slew of women. Besides, have you ever read this article from the last election cycle about the birth of the DLC? There's a reason why Appalachia voted en mass for the Clintons...

The Underground Railroad

by Oscar In Louisville on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Interesting article. I cringe when I hear white Democrats talk about "special interest voters," but that's what the DLC is all about. So why is anyone surprised that the DLC Clintons have been using racially divisive tactics?

This part made me think about the recent speculation about Appalachian voters and Obama:

Jackson likes to recount a story from 1989, about a visit to Camp Solidarity in Virginia, where miners were in the midst of the historic Pittston strike. They were, for the most part, large men, white, partial to camouflage, 10,000 strong. Jackson thought they looked pretty fierce. Rich Trumka, then president of the United Mine Workers, told them, "Y'all probably wondering why Jesse Jackson is here. Last year we were told to be scared of him. And this year the folks we gave our money to are nowhere to be seen. So I want you to ask yourselves, Which would you rather have, a black friend or a white enemy?"
It was a question other Southern white trade unionists had raised during the campaigns with their memberships, many of them Reagan Democrats. As elsewhere, the miners listened and responded enthusiastically. Jackson always maintained that a progressive candidate could reach such Democrats with straight talk, empathy, class-angled economics and an appeal to common human values--what veteran activist Anne Braden, who'd organized Rainbow rallies in Appalachia that drew thousands of poor white nonvoters or registered Republicans, called "appealing to the best instincts of Southern whites as opposed to the worst, which is what Bill Clinton played to."
The Pittston story provokes a question now. After all the energy, vision, galvanizing presence and new voters Jackson brought to the scene, can it be said that the party and established progressive institutions answered in the same way as the plain people? Or did they, perhaps, prefer the white enemy to the black friend?

A Progressive Christian perspective on I/P at Beyond Bethlehem

by RustyPipes (rustdotypipesatyahoodotcom) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

They are opportunists and liars and remind us of everything we hate about politics. They use the racism of others.

But they both have a number of very loyal black friends, people who are certainly in a position to recognize and disown a racist. These things are not incompatible.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 03:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

I think we need a diary to really explore a fuller definition of who is racist. I think a lot of folks think you have to be a Klan member for entry in that club, and you don't. And at what point does the near-constant use of race-baiting make the baiter a racist? But I'll leave that alone for the moment.

What I was referring to above was of the Joe Biden variety. This is what I wrote back in January:

I'm going to try to be careful here, because I don't want to generalize, but here's my take. There is a wariness among SOME (not all) African-Americans when dealing with SOME (not all) white liberals and progressives. There is a very real sense that SOME (not all) are very willing to act when it's clear the object of that action is subordinate--acting on behalf of children or teens for example. And that person is sincere about what they are doing. But that attitude changes when an African-American is not subordinate to them (by age, economically, by mgmt rung, etc.). That's when those patronizing "slips of the tongue" come to the fore.
Kinda like Joe Biden and the "fresh and clean" thing. I know Biden's record. I know he's not a knuckle-dragger. But when faced with the prospect of dealing with an African-American on the same level--a senator running for president--it was if he couldn't quite wrap his head around it. Thus his "gaffe."

THAT is what I meant. I mean, you can go back to that vile Steinem column: it definitely had the ring of "even a Black man will be considered for the presidency before a (white) woman." I thought she was channeling Vicente Fox.

That's just one factor among the many that probably disgusts her. But I do believe it is a factor.

Can't hear ya, Peach!

by AP on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 1)

AP,

Exactly. I've been shocked to learn that some people believe that because they aren't members of Stormfront, the Klan or committed a hate crime they aren't racist!

Stunning.

by Cee on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Add this. Selling the environment to corporate America.

And let's not forget the dot com bubble burst on his watch.

by Heart of the Rockies on Wed May 21st, 2008 at 10:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Deep Thought | 49 comments (49 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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