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Pelosi Brings a Hammer | 66 comments (66 topical, editorial, 2 hidden)

Re: Pelosi Brings a Hammer (none / 0)

I make no argument for hard-wiring.

I think we're all familiar (at least anecdotally) with the Napoleon Complex in small men and the Gentle Giant in large men. I don't know if science can back up those stereotypes or not, but those traits would not be dictated by hard-wiring.

Well, actually they could be, but I doubt it. Much more likely, large men find it unnecessary to project fierceness and small men do find it necessary. Maybe this isn't so much the case in a modern civil society, but it's still true on schoolyards and city corners.

People will adjust to their circumstances as well as mimic their gender role models. In most species this means that males act like their fathers and girls act like their mothers and that each group has a slightly different coping strategy.

There shouldn't be a debate about nature vs. nurture in this case because the end result is the same either way.

by BooMan on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 01:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pelosi Brings a Hammer (none / 1)

The end result isn't the same. There's a very important difference. Biological hard-wiring would be fundamental to human nature. Social conditioning is a product of a sexist, patriarchal society, and would change (hopefully becoming more egalitarian) as a result of efforts to eliminate sexism.

The problem here is the application of a gendered stereotype. Why is Pelosi's gender at all relevant? Particularly since "feminine" isn't exactly a useful, unambiguous descriptor? There's plenty of other ways to describe her tactics and strategies that are both more accurate and don't carry sexist or gendered baggage.

Kill because somebody was killed. Get killed because he killed. Do you think peace will ever come like that?

by Egarwaen on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 02:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pelosi Brings a Hammer (none / 0)

well, yes, and as I have said, female roles/strategies/ideals change as circumstances change. In this regard, I think culture lags behind necessity but eventually catches up to it. That's where we are now, in the catching up phase.

You can't really separate steps towards egalitarianism (as you put it) from the economic need for women in the workplace and advances (both medical and legal) in reproductive choice. They all go together. But I would argue that a sudden return to an agricultural society (without reliable birth control methods) would reverse many of the advances in women's egalitarianism.

We tend to think and work in the context of political struggles. But there are more sweeping mechanism in play that ebb and flow and beat to their own drummer.

We fight for women's equality because it is an intrinsic good and right. But when you place things in a larger context, people will arrange their roles religiously, culturally, and legally in ways that make sense for them at any given particular time. And when the culture lags too far behind new necessities you get this tension between reactionaries (who are more attached to the rules than the functionality of the rules) and progressives (that are not interested in old rules that no longer need apply and hinder advancement).

Seen in this light, there is no inherent femininity and masculinity but ever evolving modes of distributing work among the genders. And at this point in time, there simply is not that much need to divide the work up along gender lines. That says more about our present circumstances, however, than about any particular principle involved.

One thing I wish we knew more about are the more ancient matriarchal societies. Joseph Campbell did excellent work on that but not from the standpoint of understanding exactly why they faded away.

by BooMan on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 02:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pelosi Brings a Hammer (none / 0)

Seen in this light, there is no inherent femininity and masculinity but ever evolving modes of distributing work among the genders.

There's not even that. There's no femininity or masculinity, period. There is patriarchal society trying to fit men into the "man box" (IE, masculinity) and women into the "woman box" (IE, femininity). Without that, the variation between individuals will likely be greater than the difference in averages between the sexes.

Kill because somebody was killed. Get killed because he killed. Do you think peace will ever come like that?

by Egarwaen on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 02:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pelosi Brings a Hammer (none / 0)

you're tripping up over keeping categories separate.

Femininity and masculinity are partly genetic (that's why we look the way we do) but what we're talking about is exactly what people's perceived gender roles are at any given moment in time.

You are arguing that people's perception of gender roles is wholly manufactured and artificial and that if people would cease having gender expectations that differential gender roles would disappear.

I don't think that's true but I am not even engaged in that argument. I'm not asserting that that isn't the case to make my point.

My point, in this context, is that we are each born into an environment where there are certain tasks to be done. In some environments it makes sense to have a division of labor along gender lines and in other environments it makes sense to have both genders trained up to carry out very similar or the same tasks. We live in the latter environment, but our religious and cultural heritage are from an older, different environment.

This leads to two camps. One camp believes the most important thing is to cling to the religion and rules that applied to the old environment and the other camp wants a new culture with new rules to account for the new environment. This is roughly the debate between conservatives and reformers in all societies except the most well calibrated.

In our present environment, the need for differential roles based on gender is about as low as it can go while women still bear children. Therefore, our tolerance for gender distinctions and gender roles is also at a low ebb. Where I think we truly differ is in seeing this as a straight-shot of progressive progress. I do see it as progressive progress, but I also see it is a reflection of a new environment for work and our efforts to reform our laws, religion, and culture to reflect what works in this environment.

by BooMan on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 03:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pelosi Brings a Hammer | 66 comments (66 topical, 0 editorial, 2 hidden)

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