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Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? | 110 comments (110 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

I think it goes without saying that Obama's pride in American institutions does not extend to the institution of slavery.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (4.00 / 2)

I never said, nor implied that. I was just adding to the comments of Canada and Englad's abolition of slavery.

To be honest, this country has a lot of things to be proud of (among them the Constitution, which other countries [at leat Argentina] adopted almost word for word). But there are other things that are shameful. And I don't think they are in the best interest of this country to simply ignore them. Why is it that I can't criticize the military? Have they never been wrong?

And, why can't I criticize Obama for doing a 180 degrees turn after he promissed to not support the telecoms inmunity?

Maybe it is because I am from Argentina, a country that has gone far beyond ctiticizing our military and jailed all of them (as well as those civilians that participated in anyway with the military). Or because we have enacted laws that prohibit the government's spying on their own citizens.

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (4.00 / 4)

Yes to Argentina. Way back in the thread I mentioned that I could come up with many other examples of how the US is not 'the greatest country on earth.' Ignorance or denial of these makes it possible for people in the States to be manipulated by their politicians. If they think the US is the best, they are less likely to criticize or compare or demand improvement. And they won't be aware of how the US has overtly and covertly undermined independence and success in many other countries, like Argentina (see Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine).

I make no claims for Canadian superiority. We have our own reasons for shame, past and present, to acknowledge and correct. But if I had to come up with a partial list of differences between the US and Canada, it would include:

Concern for common good/cooperation over individualism/competition
Respect for international law and dispute arbitration (Canada actually abides by the decisions!)
Preference for multilateral agreements and equality within them
Leadership in the creation of UN peacekeeping, as well as the International Criminal Court and the Ottawa Treaty against land mines (which the US opposes)
Preference for negotiations and diplomacy rather than force; Canada has never raided, invaded, or colonized another country. We've been invaded by the US twice; their plans to take us over militarily were shelved in 1923; since then they've been trying it by other means).
No nuclear weapons
No military bases in other countries
Refused involvement in the wars on Vietnam, Iraq, and in 'Missile Defense'
Opposed to militarization of space
No glorification of militarism and macho behaviour
Open trade and tourism relationship with Cuba
Gun control
No 'War on Drugs,' except under (considerable) pressure from the US; drugs seen as a public health issue
Low prison numbers relative to general population (US is the highest in the world.)
Opposition to capital punishment; Canada abolished it in 1976.
Environmental concern
Belief in social welfare; higher scores in everything (healthcare, maternal/child mortality, privacy, human development, gender equality, student achievement, etc.).
Women's equal rights are in the constitution. Canada granted women's suffrage before the US.
Reproductive rights: Canada has no laws relating to abortion. It's a private matter between a woman and her care provider.
Multiculturalism is public policy, embraced as characteristically Canadian.
Immigration is encouraged, immigrants are welcome.
Ease with interracial marriage
Gay and lesbian equality, including marriage; all laws criminalizing homosexuality were rescinded forty years ago (1969).
Political campaigns are limited, by law, to 35 days; spending is capped and monitored by an independent commission.
Respect for science; no 'creationism' and 'intelligent design' controversies
Wariness and discomfort with overt religiosity, absence of it in public affairs
Wariness of 'patriotism.' We don't salute our flag. We think that's a strange thing to do.

Anybody from elsewhere than the US, I'd be interested in your examples.

by Dubh on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

No. He just perpetuates the political requirement that black people not act too angry about slavery. His poor wifey can't even have her own opinions about America and its slavery problem.

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

give it fucking rest. Jesus.

Yes. You're right. Barack Obama is responsible for perpetuating the political reality that white people don't respond well to black people that are angry about slavery. Pure genius. Anything else you want to lay on his plate today?

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

Well. This is yet another aspect I'm not happy with. I agree with your political assessment that Obama shouldn't make a big deal about white people's distaste for black people with a strong opinion about slavery.

But Obama chose to repudiate his church and his black pastor because they were too black. He chose to have his wife shut her mouth about her feelings about her country and its enslavement of black people. I thought it was politically stupid to sell those people out but I overlooked it before because it wasn't worth the fight.

But now it's simply further evidence that Obama isn't changing anything. In fact, he's running farther to the right than I ever imagined.

Obama laid this on our plate. He chose to start taking out those to the Left of him and then he sends his minions out there to whip us into line. You and Obama are bringing this on yourselves. This is why I said the party is breaking up. We don't share core values.

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

You know, it would have been nice if Rev. Wright has put his ego in check and taken a long vacation. But he didn't. I can't believe you're even bringing that shit up.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

It's always the fault of the liberal that walks into the buzzsaw with you, isn't it? Don't you see the buzzsaw is set to go off on the Democrat no matter what he does? Don't you see that the way you defeat the buzzsaw is to stand up to it and fight it? Not to give in to each time only to let it remain in place so it can chop up the next liberal?

We knew the GOP would throw a hissy fit about two things this election:

Obama is black and angry. He hangs with black preachers that hate America (like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton--two more lefties you would execute for the greater good).
McCain is a war hero and Obama is not patriotic enough and does not know how to protect us like Johnny McCain.

Sure enough. They threw hissy fits over these things. They were just waiting for a Democrat to walk into a buzzsaw. There was no avoiding it. And you and Obama fell for it. You followed the same loser strategy Democrats have been following forever; you caved-in to this craven hissy fit. You are blaming the lefties for walking into a buzzsaw that is designed to indiscriminately cut up Democrats--whether they appease the right-wing or not. You don't defeat a buzzsaw with this strategy.

We're talking past each other here. The GOP, the media, and turncoat Dems have created an environment where the GOP goes into frenzy mode over nothing and the media and Dems immediately complies with whatever silliness the wingnuts spew.

Wes Clark didn't say anything wrong yet here you and the centrist Dems are blaming him for walking into the buzzsaw.

It's foolish to always be worrying about the wingnut buzzsaw. You are lost until you figure out this very simple political reality.

Let me ask you this: If we did what you wanted, and executed Wes Clark, MoveOn, the ACLU, Rev. Wright, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney, and the other boogeymen on the left would the media and the Republicans finally be giving you love?

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 1)

talking past each other?

Who would you rather have fighting for you? Martin Luther King Jr. or Al Sharpton? Paul Wellstone or Dennis Kucinich? John Lewis or Cynthia McKinney? Desmond Tutu or Rev. Wright?

I'll take my advocates without Tawana Brawley, Chemtrails, 9/11 conspiracies, and the government gave blacks AIDs.

In fact, if I were opposed to my views, I'd actively hire that list to represent the progressives.

This isn't about buzzsaws. It's about effectiveness. We aren't going to rehabilitate that list and make the world safe for progressives thereby. They are one and all more concerned about promoting themselves then the issues I care about. And when they advocate for my issues they weaken my position. Period.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

I probably would choose the sames spokespeople you would choose. (e.g. Desmond Tutu over Rev. Wright). But we don't have the luxury of choosing our progressive friends.

We have to go to war with the progressive candidates we have not the progressive candidates we wish we had. It's not efffective for you to shoot all the ones on the left for being too leftist. You will never achieve your ideal candidate. It's you that is being too idealistic.

All I ask is that you defend liberals. They are supposedly your allies. Look, I don't like the 9/11 truth stuff or other conspiracy theories. But America is full of conspiracy theories. Hell, the Republicans would have no one voting for them if they removed from their party those that believed Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9/11. And some conspiracy theories are no more kooky that other establishment ideas (that we can win a war on drugs--that we need to send troops to the Middle East to make us safer). And some conspiracy theories are understandable. Like the AIDS thing. There is some mainstream evidence (a Pulitzer was given for reporting on this) and the black community certainly has a historical reason for believing this consipiracy.

Look. These people help your side. I know you don't see it because the right-leaning people you have contact with are put-off by these Lefties. But it does help. We need people making these arguments. It's a long-term strategy. I used to be on your side tactically. I thought if Democrats moved to the center it would help. I now see that to win the long-term ideological battle we have to support our fighters on the left that are getting attacked.

And Martin Luther King, Jr. would not be involved in the Obama campaing. He is too radical for Obama. He said almost the exact same thing that Rev. Wright is saying. You may not know this but MLK was a very divisive figure back in the day. But back then Democrats and liberals banded together for a common and core value and were able to achieve victory. They won the narrative. MLK is now a hero in this country and has a day named after him (despite McCain's efforts to the contrary). They won because liberals stood up for the fighters on their left flank. MLK today would be a nobody radical.

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

If were talking about the specific people that I mentioned rather than a broader definition of the left or far left, then I totally disagree with you.

And I in absolutely in no way think distancing yourself from heavy-baggage leftists is a move to the center. It's not.

It's like going into court and discovering that your lawyer, despite being correct on the law, is totally incapable of winning over the jurors. You don't try to convince the jurors that your lawyer isn't wrong, you replace your lawyer.

There are many advocates on the left that are available to replace our clowns, but the media likes to invite our clowns on teevee to make sure the face of progressivism is all wrapped up with wacky conspiracy theories and personality-driven media hogs. It is killing us and there is no profit in pretending otherwise.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

But that's the point. You don't get to invent hypothetical lefties to defend. We have to go to war with the lefties we have. If you want to draft some more lefties--great, that's an awesome idea. That's great some bloggers tried to recruit new progressives. Too bad we didn't really look too closely at them and many of them just wanted the money. But I applaud the effort.

I understand that you like a more centrist Democratic party. That's fine. We disagree on policy issues. But we can't work together on the things we agree on if you are shooting me because I'm too lefty. It's easier for you because you have the right-wing to help support you. The right-wing and the media will gladly join forces with you to shoot the lefties. It happens all the time. You got your condemnation of MoveOn and you got your characterization of Kucinich as "kooky" and you got your disavowal of angry black preachers and liberal Generals. But guess what? It hasn't helped you. The GOP will gladly turn on you and shoot you for your troubles after you have helped them dispatch with the left wing. So you're not a big man for taking pot shots at those on the Left. It's counterproductive. A big man would find a way to support his allies but speak his mind, "I disagree with the black community's theory that the government started the AIDS epidemic but we must understand that there is a history of government abusing the black commuity. Of course our country enslaved black people. And more recently the government even conducted secret medical experiments on the black community. So while I disagree with them in this particular theory I totally understand the feeling from where it comes and I wholeheartedly support my friends in the black community." You would shoot these guys as "kooks" and disown them.

Plus, those of us on the Left have realized there is no more useful reason to be allies with you. Yes, we have more in common that we do with the right-wing. But we have stopped sharing core values and you don't even attempt to give us basic political cover.

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 0)

Now you're expanding your critique beyond what we were discussing. So, here we go:

I do not support the standard practice of shutting all progressives out of the national conversation except those that espouse conspiracy theories or are known self-promoting ambulance chasers. I do not believe it is true that I have to live with these people are my spokespeople. There is a whole progressive movement filled with smart, articulate, photogenic advocates that are still generally not allowed within a mile of a cable news studio or Sunday morning program.
I am pissed at the leadership of MoveOn.org for marginalizing themselves through their own stupidity. I'm not looking to pile on them, but I get angry when Democrats are attacked for pointing out something I totally agree with.
I don't want a center-right party. I want to build the legitimacy and bench of the progressive movement so we aren't just a bunch of opinionated people with no practical experience in governing. If you haven't noticed, we act like a bunch of whiny-ass titty-babies whenever we don't get what we want. We want progress in leaps and bounds and constantly threaten to take our ball and go home. Any time we are disrespected we threaten to vote third-party.

One thing Arthur Gilroy was right about is that the blogosphere wouldn't spend two seconds after Obama won the nomination to start nibbling his house down like a swarm of petulant termites.

It really is childish.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? (none / 1)

Didn't Rumsfeld say we had to go to war with the army we have? That worked out so well.

The "coalition of the willing" that takes office in January has to be able to actually govern, just as the Army we sent to Iraq actually needed to win the peace.

Serious friggin' action is needed now to fix so much damage that eight years of negligent governance has created.

That simply will not happen without help from the center and even the right. The electorate needs to send a message that this is not about ideology, partisanship, or control, but rather simple principled competence in government.

by Andrew Longman on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He just ain't black enough (none / 0)

Wow. What a self-hater you are.

Authenticity is the STUPIDEST test for a politician. MORONIC. NO ONE IS FUCKING AUTHENTIC.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He just ain't black enough (none / 1)

Hey dipshit.

Did I say he should be authentic? I never fell for the cult of personality like you Obamabots. I assess my politicians on their deeds. Not if they are authentic. I've had this very discussion with Booman before because he criticized Kunich's lack of sincerity and seemed to put a premium on Obama's personality and not his positions.

You really have no justification calling other people stupid when you spill forth such meaningless words as you just did.

Obama told his black preacher and his church of 20 something fucking years to get lost.

Are you too stupid to see the political costs of doing this or is Obama's shit golden to you?

With geniuses in the blogosphere like you no wonder liberalism is on the rise.

Why don't you go to Daily Kos and yell "purity troll". Talk about kid games. You're a second-rate thinker with a first rate big fucking mouth with Obama's shit trickling down your caustic mouth.

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He just ain't black enough (4.00 / 2)

I'm not picking on you, SF, but this just seems like a good place to put this.

Can people try to keep a respectful tone with each other, please?

No need to call each other stupid.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Balance is important (none / 0)

We need McCain backers like you. Talk about second-rate thinkers. Anyone who would back McCain: What kind of a thinker is that?

What would lead a person like yourself to be a McCain backer? It boggles the mind.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 05:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up? | 110 comments (110 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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