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We Have a Leader | 31 comments (31 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

A contradiction (none / 0)

none of this seemed to be contradictory or discordant

From the speech:

You don't defeat -- you don't defeat a terrorist network that operates in 80 countries by occupying Iraq. You don't protect Israel and deter Iran just by talking tough in Washington.

Is there anyone who doubts that the US would not have occupied Iraq if the neocons didn't think that that was the way to "protect Israel"???

There's a contradiction, in two consecutive sentences. So much for change. Obama's slogan should be "Fine-tuning you can believe in."

Change we can't believe in. No we can't!

by Alexander on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:49:32 AM EST

Re: A contradiction (4.00 / 3)

Actually, I don't see the contradiction at all.

You don't defeat al-Qaeda by invading Iraq and you don't protect Israel by talking smack against Iran.

Where's the contradiction?

by BooMan on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

Why is Alexander here, sigh.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 1)

So, you want me to leave? I can do that. But then how would that make you any different from the Republicans, other than having a difference in taste?

Your saying that I do not belong here signifies that you have a limited tolerance for rational argument. The difference between you and Bush supporters is that you have a greater tolerance level for rational argument. But both of you are alike in that your tolerance runs out more quickly than it should.

Change we can't believe in. No we can't!

by Alexander on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 03:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

Fortunately you don't have access to the keys to this place because if you did it would rapidly turn into a monotonous wasteland of party enforced delusion and conformity. Statements like the above are a little odd coming from someone who themself was unfairly ranctioned and silenced at daily kos for pushing the boundaries of their srictly enforced conformity.

Green Grass and High Tides Forever

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

sanctioned and silenced

Green Grass and High Tides Forever

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:11:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

The comment was not about censoring him. It was asking why he is here, because he clearly doesn't share Democratic values. I've read his comments for a while and it's clear to me he's just here to sow dissent.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

I think he's here to speak his mind. If that's dissent, so be it. I don't think there's a rule against dissent here. His opinion was disputed in comments and settled. Your accusation of "sowing" dissent is something completely different.

But maybe you're right. He could be here to clandestinly pick off otherwise intelligent members who are so weak in their convictions that he finds it easy pickings to build his army of anti Obama crusaders. This is likely only one site in many that he's infiltrated and in that case you should be commended for smoking him out of his hole.

Bravo!

Green Grass and High Tides Forever

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

Eh, no biggie. Let him rant, sometimes these folks do this on purpose hoping to get booted.

by RollaMO on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

The contradiction is that the second sentence implies that the Bush administration "protects Israel ... just by talking tough". But it didn't just talk tough: it invaded Iraq, a main if not the main reason for which was protecting Israel. And as far as the Israel lobby is concerned, "defeating a terrorist network..." is more or less synonymous with "protecting Israel".

Thus, the two sentences appear not to contradict each other only if you disregard (1) it was thought that invading Iraq served Israeli interests and (2) "terrorism" as used by US foreign policy makers can usually be glossed as activity perceived to be harmful to US and/or Israeli interests. You have to read beneath the text. Isn't that what you post-modernists do? ;-)

Change we can't believe in. No we can't!

by Alexander on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:30:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 1)

you're talking out of your ass.

First of all, the two sentences are independent, not part of one logical construction.

Second of all, Bush invaded Iraq for his own petulant reasons, and protecting Israel wasn't near the top of the list. If you had asked Israel they would have told us to invade Iran.

Your argument does not make sense.

Obama intends to protect Israel. He intends to dissuade Iran from developing nuclear weapons. Maybe you disagree with those policies but they are not contradictory.

by BooMan on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

I seem to have hit a raw nerve.

You do not appear to be familiar with The Fall of the House of Bush. Craig Unger shows how Bush only developed his animus against Iraq after he started getting briefed by neocons as he was being groomed for his presidential run. Israel wanted us to invade both Iran and Iraq; Iraq was seen as the first step.

And, since you apparently haven't heard, "protecting Israel" and working for the best interests of the American people are contradictory.

Change we can't believe in. No we can't!

by Alexander on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:01:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 1)

No. You seem to be illogical. And troll-like.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

so, you think protecting Israel is contradictory to protecting America? I'd say that depends on the policy that we have. It's not inevitable at all.

I'd evaluate his policy in its totality.

by BooMan on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

I think it's perfectly obvious that "protecting Israel" conflicts with US national interests. (I won't use the tendentious phrase "protecting America", since the main threat that America needs to be protected from is itself.) If it wasn't for (1) Israel having been created as a byproduct of British imperialism; (2) Israel having decided that the only way it can deal with its neighbors is from a position of absolute military superiority, as opposed to dealing with its neighbors diplomatically, through realpolitik; (3) the US giving unconditional support to Israel, no matter how much Israel violates international law -- the US would really have no significant conflict at all with the Arab world. They have oil; we have hip pop culture. What's the problem? According to the economic theory that both American parties embrace, there is no reason why America and oil-rich Middle Eastern countries cannot just trade amicably, and leave it at that, were it not for Israel. Mearsheimer and Walt make basically this point.

Obviously, Obama's policy should be evaluated in its totality. It's just that I was very taken by Clinton and Gore's victory speeches in 1992, only to be really let down. So far, Obama has given no indication that he will be any different.

And now that we're at it, I have a problem with this whole "change" meme. To say that you want change means that you accept the present situation on some level. Why couldn't Obama have chosen the slogan "Let's get this country back on track?" He never says that Bush has radically moved the country in the wrong direction, since that would require him to point out that the "war on terror" is bullshit. But Obama speaks of the "war on terror" as a rational, legitimate activity.

Change we can't believe in. No we can't!

by Alexander on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (4.00 / 2)

I don't believe the statement was contradictory, but share your frustration that he has not given us any real signs that he will truly change policy, particularly on Israel. I also disagree with those who claim Israel played no role in our decision to invade Iraq. Read Richard Perle's "A Clean Break: A New Strategy For Securing the Realm", but I think they do it out a real fear of retaliation fro m likudnik groups. Unfortunately we must just cross our fingers that the real policy will be better than the rhetoric, and prepare for massive street protests if it is not.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog

by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

Is there anyone who doubts that the US would not have occupied Iraq if the neocons didn't think that that was the way to "protect Israel"???

Yes, I doubt that. They had many motives and protecting Israel was probably #50. You are letting your hatred of Jews show. Are you a Palestinian?

by The Voice In The Wilderness on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A contradiction (none / 0)

So, there are no anti-Semites other than Palestinians, according to your logic. What are you smoking?

My problem isn't with "Jews", or even Israel. It's that given the immense problems that the United States faces, I don't see why the task of "protecting Israel" should show up in a US presidential candidate's nomination acceptance speech.

The Israel lobby is just another lobby, like the multitude of corporate lobbies. My main problem with Obama is that he has shown no sign of being ready to challenge lobbies to fight for the public interest. (But as Booman has noted, if he had shown such a sign, he would not be the nominee.)

Change we can't believe in. No we can't!

by Alexander on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We Have a Leader | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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