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Pretzel Logic | 33 comments (33 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

Sorry but when you are spending $800 Billion I, and I think most Americans, want to make sure it is done right.

I, and most American, trust Congress, especially one with an effective supermajority, about as far as I can hurl to do it responsibly.

Way down the list is whether one party can do it in a way that shows up the other party. I believe Obama got elected on a platform of competence, not partisanship.

But politics is politics and by design it is messy, but my standards a up a bit especially since everyone is approaching this bill (and the bail out bill) with as much thought as Chicken Little

by Andrew Longman on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 04:19:00 PM EST

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

you don't understand, Andy. You must have missed yesterday's Hardball. If you had seen it, all of this would make perfect sense to you.

by BooMan on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 04:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

Oh, no I get it. They are slime. I'm just saying I'm not happy about it. We are seriously f*cked and this ain't helping me feel any better.

FWIW, Obama seems to be staying above the fray but Congress needs to bring him something to sign I won't be sick about (not that the GOP has offered a ton of good ideas, but there is not enough transparency in this bill and not enough debate on why this and that within the bill is the right thing to do).

I'm seeing too much "well we gotta do something" and "the other party want us to fail" and not enough actual governing.

by Andrew Longman on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 05:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

I was being snarky.

Yeah, I'm disappointed at the blogosphere's critique of this bill. I think it is just a grab-bag of liberal goodies with not enough focused stimulative stuff in it.

But the critique is that it is a cave-in to the GOP. I guess it's good that the debate isn't over all the money we're giving to good causes, but it's a glaring failure of analysis.

The question is whether or not it will stimulate the economy as much as we need, or not. The idea that this bill is GOP-friendly is laughable.

by BooMan on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 05:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

The idea that this is a GOP friendly is indeed laughable. Without debate and analysis no one has even guessed what it would do so how the f$ck does anyone know if it supports conservative principles in macro economic terms?

The debate over striking the balance among stimulating the existing but departing consumer led economy vs investing in the emerging economy vs just fixing the shit we've neglected for 50 years would be a good one. Also how that plays out when compared to progressive and conservative values would be good. I'm waiting,

by Andrew Longman on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 05:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

I forwarded Chairman Inouye's email detailing the mark-up. You can read most of that email here.

You can be the judge.

There are many worthy job-creating projects, including in the 'new-economy'. There is also plenty of stuff like this:

Title I: $13 billion to help close the achievement gap and enable disadvantaged students to reach their potential.

I mean, that's great and it will undoubtedly involve the hiring of some people, but that's a lot of cheese for pretty tangential and indirect economic benefits.

by BooMan on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 05:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

As a school board president I cherish all Title I money, but I also know that that money from Title I and elsewhere is very often not "colored" to meet the needs as intended.

For example, what I might really need is some relief from the state in budgeting mandates to reserve money to transport special needs student we can house ourselves, but the feds will just wash money over us we could never use to set up programs than never make sense given our size and needs.

Another example: my read is I have pretty good chance of scoring a half million plus to install solar panels. I also can get thousands for an energy audit. I can also get perhaps millions for new construction.

But what I need is a few hundred to replace suck as windows that either don't open or close and lack screens (even on the second floor) and leak heat like crazy. So far, nda for the last many years I don't see money for that. I need to ask for more to get what I really don't want and need.

I also know that 13B is a fuck of a lot of money and I could get want I want and need if we weren't so wasteful and in a hurry to finish the bill.

by Andrew Longman on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 07:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

Yeah, inefficiencies in federal spending are always a huge problem. And, in this case, we're kind of saying 'just get the money out there fast'.

I love that we're spending money on schools, especially for kids that have been neglected forever. And, believe me, I have no conscience whatsoever about cramming the money into any vehicle that will host it. But this IS a stimulus/jobs bill and I'm not sure that 13 billion in Title I money is going to spur much economic activity compared to 13 billion on many other things.

So, it's kind of making me laugh when progressives complain about this bill because it has some tax cuts in it. And that's not even considering that half the tax cuts are for payroll.

by BooMan on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 07:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

"Conservative principles in macro economic terms"?

What's that? Running a war on false pretenses and borrowing to pay for it so that oil companies can control someone else's natural resources?

If you are talking about the Chicago School of Business theory of economics, you are looking at it. That's what gave us this Depression. And it drained our country of our domestic industry and it's so concentrated wealth among the wealthy that capitalism doesn't work with what's left. People who aren't paid enough money to buy things can only borrow so much. Then the house of cards folds. No consumers, no jobs, no business.

That's why the government has to step in. Everything else is shutting down. And quite honestly, this stimulus package isn't enough.

Just saying. Conservative principles. Please. The Republicans in Congress have proven themselves to be neither conservative nor principled.

by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

I think we agree.

The Right has screwed this up for ages and they are acting no better now.

But I am also highly suspicious of Congress no matter who is in the majority. Honest dialog and differences of opinion in the light of day is the only remedy... and a poor one at that. But I'd like to at least see that.

by Andrew Longman on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 at 08:34:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

It's hard to blame the House Republicans' belligerence on Obama. How would the Republicans change the package? The only thing I've heard was more tax cuts for the ultra rich.

If Dick Armey or an equivalent could go on a talk show and say, "This worked in 1977, this worked in 1952, etc.," and carry on a reasoned debate, then maybe the debate could be advanced. But he's apparently incapable of doing it. What does that leave?

Myself, I'd like a functioning labor party in the U.S. and a media that honestly reports on political differences.

Out here in the Bay Area the SF Chronicle's political reporting has defaulted back to Republicanese. The failure of the House to delay the digital TV implementation was a defeat for Obama. The hostility of Republicans against the stimulus package was all blamed on Obama's weakness. This is typical Repub newspaper slanting. Jimmy Carter, when the CIA was sabotaging his administration, was "weak". Clinton was weak, unless he was pushing NAFTA and GATT and media conglomeration.

Bottom line: The Republicans haven't been capable of an honest debate on issues in decades, and if they ever do don't expect the mainstream media to report it.

by Bob In Pacifica on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 at 10:19:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

All fair comments and in line with my point.

I want to know if "I" am winning. Screw the parties.

I don't see anything that has happened in the last 10 days as Obama "losing" except that the dialog hasn't shifted from the same failed crap of the last 25+ year (or far more).

And yes I blame Republicans far more for that. Basically, they haven't really looked past the results of the election beyond the vote tally.

by Andrew Longman on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 at 10:57:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pretzel Logic (none / 0)

It would help if anyone in the blogosphere actually READ the bill before offering opinions on it. I'm amazed at the dearth of coverage. Bills are easy to find and read. But the press doesn't bother because they are spinning on purpose, and the blogosphere doesn't bother because they're lazy. And of course, writing for free, in many cases.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 at 04:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pretzel Logic | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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