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Rhetorical Triangulation | 24 comments (24 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

I think Obama is very practical and he isn't a down-the-line progressive, so there will be areas where he takes policy positions we don't like. But he basic modus operandi is to sound very reasonable and conciliatory to his opponents' point of view and then to do the progressive thing.

It's a total rejection of the Lakoffian model and it has been driving framing advocates nuts for two years now.

by BooMan on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 11:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

I agree re Obama - that's why I liked him from the start (the start being when I actually did some research into his Illinios state record).

I understand your frustration with some on the left, but I'd also like to point out that:

You can't change them anyway.
If you make Obama's strategy too obvious, it loses its power.
There's a deliberate effort in the LAT, the WaPo, the NYT and others to paint Obama as a failure because it serves the agenda of the right-wing owners. Don't buy into that by responding as if argument has enough credibility to be responded to. Instead, point out their bias at every opportunity. I feel that better serves our cause.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 1)

Here's the thing, Lisa. There are bloggers and columnists that shade what they write (as opposed to what they write about) because they want to advance a certain agenda. Perhaps they feel like slamming Obama from the Left serves some purpose. It provides cover and makes him look moderate if the Left is visibly unhappy, for example. It moves the Overton Window if the Left is making demands and appears unsatisfied.

This idea not only has merit, it's undeniably true.

But that doesn't mean that I am going to shade what I think is the truth of the matter to push some agenda. When I think Obama is wrong (like on his decision to invoke the State Secrets privilege) I will say so. And when I think he is being effective and practical, I will say so.

by BooMan on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

See, and I think you're wrong in assuming they are shading the truth.

When they are misrepresenting the truth, they should be called on it. But I think you can move the Overton window left with the facts, no shading necessary.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 1)

Yes. You can definitely move the Overton Window with facts, but it helps to organize. Facts alone didn't help much in the last thirty years, as we lost more than we won and factual arguments were defeated by cheap rhetoric and superior message organization on the other side.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that the Democrats are pursuing a policy on x that is wrong and using facts to point out why it is wrong.

The LA Times article, however, is about how members of the Left are dissatisfied with the speed and policies of the Obama administration. One example they use is the Buy America provisions in the stimulus package. The problem is, he is going to sign the bill with those provision in it. See my point? What's factual about the criticism? That they didn't like what he said? So what?

by BooMan on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

But my point is that the union people also probably had some great things to say about Obama, that the writer of that article chose not to include, because they're trying to pit the left at war with itself.

We shouldn't bite.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

Paragraph 1: Ding, Ding, Ding!

I would add, that the criticism from the strawman 'Left' does not have to be of any particularly high quality.

In fact, the more far-out (yet plausibly believed) the better.

As RHS mentioned, the effectiveness and even availability of this tool (not the only, not the best, but very useful) is lessened by harping against it to the point it's practitioners have to lay the whole deal out explicitly.

Do or do not, there is no try.

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 1)

There is a function for the strawman left. But its practicioners are not going to maintain their credibility if they use strawmen.

Defending against the progressive blogosphere losing its reputation for factuality serves a function, too.

by BooMan on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

And let's face it. Who exactly does the blogosphere have credibility with, anyway? I have a few writers I read and, for the most part, trust. Very few.

If people are giving credibility to the blogosphere and just following the way the wind blows, which is how it appears to me, our problems are much bigger than who is president.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetorical Triangulation (none / 0)

The 'Liberals' strawman is extremely effective and can remains so after many, many discrediting events because the Right Wing media machine DEPENDS ON ITS EXISTENCE AND WILL BEND OVER BACKWARDS lending it credibility as the main voice of opposition to right wing ideas and will resurrect it any way. Perfect.

If, in fact, you 'accidentally' over do it and 'kill' the 'Damn Liberals' strawman, you kill the Repug's currently most effective rhetorical tool. Lord knows that would suck, right?

It's win-win to have an excessively vocal and strident Left Wing extreme.

You have to make a point of connecting the right wing and left wing versions of this strawman, and you always have put yourself in the position of reasonable alternative.

Hence the rhetorical triangulation, hence the 'Far Left' din, hence the palpable, but hard to quantify, increase in effectiveness in steering policy. No?

I just don't see the long or short term benefit of another strategy at this point, but you have to be able to change your game and I want to be convinced.

Certainly anyone who needs/cares to have their reputation in good standing for professional reasons cannot assert themselves as a voice for the strawman or echo what people expect of the strawman.

I see their job to not complain about the strawman, but rather take him 'seriously', repeat his points, combat and defeat them in the public forum with your 'Team Obama' or 'Independent Journalist' hat on.

While that may be part of a grander strategy, it would not be a violation of their valued objectivity, yet it would be a service.

Do or do not, there is no try.

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Mon Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rhetorical Triangulation | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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