Booman Tribune ~ Comments ~ Too Many John Wayne Movies

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Too Many John Wayne Movies | 15 comments (15 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

edit

hat was not reason to invade Iraq, but it does show that if even the most developed members of the UN can't correctly do the work of the UN with their own checks and balances, how would less developed nations do it better?

by Andrew Longman on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 03:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

Ahhh... Wasp conceit at its finest. And why not? It's Easter Sunday...

by Guthman on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 10:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

Because Japan and Korea are so Wasp-y?

France is so Wasp-y?

China and Russia are so Wasp-y?

At least Obama is a protestant. That's something. What day it it? Is Tony Blair a Catholic today, or it that only on alternate Mondays?

It's not conceit to note that the powers that won World War Two were right to set up a system of collective security in which they both took the biggest share of the responsibility and an outsized share of the voting power. Just because the world has changed since then and we need to adapt in recognition of that doesn't make what was done a conceit.

When the UN was created, Riyadh had a population under 40,000. Today it has 5 million people. Times change, and the third world becomes the first world. Yet, just because a country gains population and economic clout doesn't mean it has a commitment to liberal economics or liberal politics.

by BooMan on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 10:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

But I agree with you Booman. In 1945 the victorious powers via their respective empires objectively (though often tyrannically) represented the majority of the world's population. Bygone days.
Wasp conceit, on the other hand, is to imply, as Andrew Longman does, that there is a pyramid of global social development at the top which sits wasp-man, and to then go on and postulate, that the current UN regime is still the least bad, because, unlike the systems of "developing" countries, the wasp model has built-in checks and balances. Hence neo-wasp man's world rule is objectively the most enlightened and beneficial currently available, even if undemocratic, and should therefore continue by default.
Am I misreading Andrew? Are these not his views?

by Guthman on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 11:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

I don't understand what WASPs have to do with it. Andrew made no such argument.

His argument appears to me to be that you have a bunch of countries that have basically bought into America's post-1945 vision to the degree that they've joined in the G20-Bretton Woods system, into representative government with accompanying human and political rights, and into collective security. And then you have other countries that may have developed economically and politically and by population since 1945, but which are not solidly on board with the international system.

Europe, Latin America, Japan, Korea, and India all are functioning in the international system, but Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not. Iran? Imperfectly, at best. Much of Africa is still struggling politically and economically.

It's true that Russia and China have been problems from the beginning, at first ideologically and now more politically, but they're so powerful that they cannot be ignored. The rest of the advanced economic powers are justified in excluding new members to the permanent Security Council that don't share their basic political and economic assumptions and commitments. It's not a conceit, it's a bias in favor of countries that display stability and an at least an average commitment to human, political, and economic rights.

by BooMan on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 12:13:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

Don't you realize that you yourself are making my case for me Booman?

You have merely rephrased what first Andrew implied and what I then fleshed out. You just put a slightly different spin on it: Waspman's aka Angloman's institutions rule a world in his own image. Others may be allowed into the Wasp club to the extent that they are good chaps, sociable and not trouble makers. Dear children: some fine day most all of you will have ascended to Waspman's august level of being, then you too can become full club members and honorary Wasps. But you have to wait your turn and work within the system, and more importantly work on yourselves and on your manners. "Final victory" (your term Booman) will come when Waspman has created a world that is fully in his own image.

This vision of a benign white anglo imperialism is pure Milner Group ideology.

But no conceit, no no no.

by Guthman on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 12:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Many John Wayne Movies (none / 0)

First of all, I'm explaining my interpretation of Andrew's argument, but I don't really disagree with it.

I have no idea why you cast the entire post-war movement away from monarchy and in favor of Republicanism, internationalism, collective security, and human rights as the exclusive province of WASPs. Even if you want to talk origins, these values were co-created with France and the European continental philosophes, and exported unevenly by Napoleon.

More recently, the best ambassadors have been Koreans, Japanese, and Taiwanese. And pretty much all of Latin America has embraced these values in their rough outlines since 1990.

More often than not, criticism of the system involves its uneven application and not its underlying legitimacy. Those that do not have free and fair elections generally want them. People that don't have the right to free speech and free assembly and the right to petition for grievances generally want those rights. Only on the question of freedom of religion is there still some fairly hot resistance in certain areas to the international system.

I don't think there is anything particularly WASPy about any of it. Insofar as there are disagreements they are over details in the financial system (IMF, World Bank, third-world debt) or in the need for reforms in the UN, including the Security Council and its membership.

And, regardless, those with the power have the right and the means to promote and protect the values that the built this system to enshrine and perpetuate.

by BooMan on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 at 01:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Too Many John Wayne Movies | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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