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On Palin Jokes | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

Couple of issues.

Saying that Palin has a repressed librarian look isn't an insult to librarians. Is it?

I don't think Letterman insulted hard-working flight attendants. He insulted women, particularly women that have careers or enter politics.

My problem is with the word 'slutty', which I just think is a loaded word that is over the top.

In that sense, I don't disagree that Ellen could be criticized for the same joke. I just don't think she would be to anywhere the same degree. I also think there is a legitimate double standard in comedy. IOKIYA a member of the group being joked about. Up to a point, of course.

by BooMan on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 01:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

This is my problem with you. Instead of just taking a stand you want to find out what kind of insults that MIGHT be demeaning to women (or to women in a particular kind of profession) could be OK because they are just insulting but not sexist.

My point about Ellen isn't about Ellen - it's about you and your blogging buddies. If Ellen did it, YOU should call her on it. Even if the rest of society gives her a pass. My point is not about comedians - it's about men who blog and who call themselves progressive but won't stand shoulder to shoulder with women progressives in calling stuff out but instead try to think of reasons why it really isn't sexist or it's not THAT sexist. All in the name of not wading into the fray.

Call everybody on it.

You've figured out a way to do it with race. Why can't you figure out a way to do it with sexism?

by maryb2004 on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 01:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

you seem to be suggesting that there is no distinction between something that is sexist and something that is merely insulting. And, you seem to be saying that even if there were a distinction, I shouldn't make it, and should leap to accuse people of sexism.

Let me ask you a question. If Letterman had used 'come-hither' rather than 'slutty' would it have been insulting to women?

I recognize the inherent problem with objectifying women, but a woman that plays on her looks should expect people to comment and even joke about it. My problem is with the loaded 'slut' word and with bringing people's children up for ridicule.

by BooMan on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 02:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

No I'm not suggesting there is no distinction. I'm saying that if there is a QUESTION as to whether something is just insulting or whether it is also sexist, you should err on the side of assuming it is sexist. You may end up being wrong - but imo its better for someone who believes it is part of his job to push progressive policies to err in that direction than to err by tending to ignoring borderline behavior.

All these questions - you seem to want to hammer out EXACTLY where the line is. That's impossible because there are too many variables. Bright line tests are what the Roberts/Thomas/Scalia/Alito faction on the supreme court always demands. I'm more like Kennedy and O'Connor and the other swing judges - there is a problem, most people will know it when they see it and they should take appropriate action.

by maryb2004 on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 02:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

I'll stick with trying not to err at all.

by BooMan on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 03:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

I think that policy is what has proven detrimental to you and your fellow male bloggers over the last year or two.

Because trying not to err generally means acting conservatively and that means NOT calling something out unless you are absolutely sure.

That's what people who won't recognize dog whistles do when it comes to race issues. They aren't racist. But they try not to err and they don't recognize all dog whistles so they err on the side of caution. And don't call out things they should call out.

I don't mean to pick on you particularly. I think the vast majority of male bloggers have this problem when it comes to sexism issues.

by maryb2004 on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 03:15:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

But 'slutty' isn't a dog whistle, it's a sledgehammer.

And I did call Letterman out for it.

What I have confessed to is ignoring sexist attacks against Hillary that came from the mainstream press during the primaries. I didn't ignore them here on the site, but I didn't protest the way she was treated by people like Chris Matthews. I should have.

I don't think I have anything else to apologize for when it comes to women's rights and combating sexism.

by BooMan on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 03:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

OF course slutty is a sledgehammer.

I'm not talking about slutty. If you hadn't called out slutty I would have really wondered about you.

Don't get all defensive - I said I wasn't particularly picking on you. I'm picking on ALL of you.

I'm sure many male bloggers could make the exact same statement you just did - other than Hillary you have nothing to apologize for. There's a difference between thinking you have nothing to apologize for and thinking you are doing a great job.

The vast majority of male bloggers could do a better job on women's rights and combatting sexism. I'm pushing you to do more. Not to apologize for anything.

by maryb2004 on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 03:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

Don't get all defensive - I said I wasn't particularly picking on you. I'm picking on ALL of you.

This is pretty much the core of what I find objectionable -- actually, insulting -- about what you're saying.

I could, if I felt like granting legitimacy to the implicit argument, defend myself by producing a long and detailed post about the number of years of my life I've spent helping the (largely female) victims of child sexual abuse, or pushing to get more women and minorities hired and promoted within the places I've worked, or writing letters to congressmen and newspapers and school boards over gender issues, or the care I've taken in raising my daughter to be an independent and self-respecting individual who challenges injustice when she sees it. But I shouldn't have to, so I'm going to leave it at that.

I'm not "ALL men". I am a specific person, answerable only for my own successes and failures. I don't need credit from you or anyone else about how I lead my life; my thoughts and deeds stand or fall on their own merits. But I will not be silent when the target of your broad brush is all men, any more than I was silent -- and I most certainly was not -- when Kos was brushing off objections to that horrid pie advert as being the chatter of the "women's studies crowd".

Do a lot of [insert group here] need to do better? Almost certainly. But call them out as individuals. Judging a group for the misdeeds of individuals is not a particularly compelling way to argue that groups should not be judged for the misdeeds of individuals.

by corvus on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 07:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

All of you = men with political blogs. A and B list bloggers. Not you. (Unless you are an A or B List blogger in disguise.)

And truthfully I would think you could have figured that out from the tenor of my comments. I continually used the word "blogger".

I don't consider commenters "bloggers". Mostly because I consider commenting a pointless exercise that is useful only for entertainment and to relieve boredom.

Thanks for the entertainment today.

by maryb2004 on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 07:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

Let's try this again. The instructions were:

Do a lot of [insert group here] need to do better? Almost certainly. But call them out as individuals. Judging a group for the misdeeds of individuals is not a particularly compelling way to argue that groups should not be judged for the misdeeds of individuals.

And you said:

All of you = men with political blogs.

We'll ignore for the moment the slippery rhetorical retreat here from the original phrasing -- "ALL men" -- and see what happens when we insert the key phrase into the template:

Do a lot of men with political blogs need to do better? Almost certainly. But call them out as individuals. Judging a group for the misdeeds of individuals is not a particularly compelling way to argue that groups should not be judged for the misdeeds of individuals.

Holy shit! Not only does it make grammatical sense, but the point is still logically valid!

See, a bigot is someone who transfers a judgment about individuals into a generalization about a group, irrationally assigning to all its members the (purported) properties of a few. There are lots of context-dependent names for this -- sexism, racism, homophobia, classism, and so on -- but if I may be so bold as to make a generalization about ideas, all bigotry is bad, even if you can only bother to work up a sweat about one or two particular kinds.

Mostly because I consider commenting a pointless exercise that is useful only for entertainment and to relieve boredom. Thanks for the entertainment today.

You're quite welcome. I'll pass that along to Dave.

by corvus on Sat Jun 13th, 2009 at 12:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

"I don't think Letterman insulted hard-working flight attendants."

He didn't, nor was he referring to all flight attendants. He was referring to a particular subset of flight attendants - i.e. "slutty" ones. I suppose there are slutty flight attendants just as there are slutty computer programmers, slutty doctors, slutty attorneys, slutty waitresses, slutty politicians........well, you get the point.

"He insulted women, particularly women that have careers or enter politics."

You have completely lost me here. I can sort of see how some people might feel that such a remark is an insult to women, though as a woman I do not feel in the least insulted by what he said because in no aspect does it apply to me. But how did he insult women who have careers or who enter politics? As a woman with a career I certainly do not feel his comment insulted me in the least. I can see why a female - OR a male - flight attendant might take umbrage at a remark that COULD be taken as meaning flight attendants in general are slutty, but why on earth should women with other careers feel at all touched by a remark about an alleged subset of members of a specific profession?

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 04:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Palin Jokes (none / 0)

It's hard to provide a concise answer to your question.

Why would a woman be offended by seeing another women savaged for her 'looks' or her sexualized behavior?

Mainly because those attacks happen to women all the time when they don't deserve it. How often do people use a man's unattractiveness against him as a political argument? How often is a man criticized for being either hypersexualized or desexualized?

Under ordinary circumstances, it should be enough to criticize Palin for her inexperience and bad policies.

People are sick of seeing women attacked for peripheral matters.

by BooMan on Sat Jun 13th, 2009 at 01:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On Palin Jokes | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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