Booman Tribune

Le Roi Est Mort, Vive Le Roi!

by BooMan
Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:11:15 PM EST

I'm gonna tell you about a little hunch I have. We are on the eve of a new political era. All the battles we have been fighting among ourselves? We are going to be fighting new ones soon. All this argument about why we keep losing elections (by absolutely miniscule to non-existent margins)? We are going to move on.

We won't be seeing stuff like this from Kos anymore:

I'm increasingly convinced that the biggest intra-movement divide nowadays isn't ideological -- we mostly all agree on the same things -- but generational. Old school activists view politics and the activist realm differently than new school activists (very generally speaking). Those differences manifest themselves in arguments over single issue groups, effective activism, partisanship, tone, style, pragmatism, the types of candidates we should run, etc.

New school progressives are also less tolerant of ideological orthodoxy. We don't fall in line with the "acceptable" liberal position, frankly, because we're not trained to fall in line. We are more likely to be educated in an economy that values "proactiveness" and "self-initiative" and "problem solving" over blindly following the orders of our boss.

Why? I'll explain below the fold.

In our two-party system things change slowly. Over the course of the last 150 years we have seen the Republican Party go from a northern party to a southern party. In the late 19th and early 20th century we saw the country invade Mexico, Guatemala, Haiti, the Philippines, and Cuba, then turn strongly isolationist, then intervene in World War One, then become extremely isolationist again, then fight World War Two, Korea, Vietnam...take a break, and then launch two wars in the Middle East.

If, in the long view, our nation's politics look schizophrenic, we must remember that each era lasted a long time, usually ten or more years. And each era came to an end with an exclamation point: the Stock Market Crash, Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima. Or in the case of the sixties, a series of exclamation points: the JFK assassination, the Civil Rights Act, the Vietnam War and the 1968 Democratic Convention.

Since 1968 the dynamics of the two major parties have changed dramatically. In nominating George McGovern the Democratic Party alienated the hawkish wing of the Party (the Richard Perles and Paul Wolfowitzs). The Party also set itself up for a crushing defeat in 1972.

In 2004, the party refused to take that risk again, and it nominated a man who would not repudiate the war. There will be endless debates about whether nominating Kerry prevented an anti-war candidate from winning, or whether he fought to a near draw and prevented a 1972-like catastrophe. Whichever is the case, just as in 1973, the party is looking around and trying to figure out what went wrong. Everyone has a theory: Kerry lacked charisma, or convictions, or didn't fight, or the election was rigged, or Edwards was ineffective, or the media was biased, or the party was too centrist, or the party was too liberal.

Maybe Kos thinks the party is too fragmented and too concerned with turf battles and pet issues. Maybe other people think the party isn't standing up for its core principles.

In 1973, a scandal broke over the Watergate tapes. All the hand wringing and self doubt of the Democrats was left behind in the single-minded pursuit of bringing down the law-breaking thugs in the White House. By the time Nixon resigned, his second term was nearly half over. But in the 1974 elections the Democrats cleaned the Republicans clock, and brought in 75 new Democratic members of the house. The GOP brought in seventeen.

And what happened?

One of the most dramatic moments of the 1970s took place in early 1975. The congressional elections of 1974 had brought in a large class of freshmen who had campaigned on the theme of reforming government and changing the way that Congress operated. One of the primary goals of these “Watergate Babies” was to show that committee chairs were the creatures of the parties and not vice versa.

After forcing Ways and Means Committee Chairman Wilbur Mills to resign from his chairmanship following a scandal with a famous Argentine stripper, the Watergate Babies demanded that senior chairmen appear before them and justify why they should retain their posts.

Television reporter Roger Mudd said that it was “the ultimate indignity” for senior chairs to be required to do this. Congress would “never be the same again,” quipped one legislator. When three chairmen, Edward Herbert, W.R. Poage, and Wright Patman did not provide satisfactory answers, the caucus moved to unseat them. The New York Times editorial page boasted:

“The House Democrats have now ended the tyranny of the committee chairmen and introduced majority rule as the principle ordering their affairs.

The removal of powerful committee chairmen in 1975 was a landmark moment in the history of America’s Congress.
link (.pdf)

The Class of '74, aka the Watergate Babies, didn't succeed in stamping out corruption, or in building a new sustainable majority for the Democratic Party. But they did permanently change how Congress is run...and for the better. They took on the entrenched power structure in Congress and they put a Democratic president in the White House two years later.

We are the kernel, or the nucleus of a new class: The class of '06. While the DLC putters around the fringes, polling on how to frame a national message that will sell in the heartland, we have been calling this Bush regime and their congressional goons a bunch of lawless thieves and transparent crooks. We've been exposing their lies every day for several years. And when the hammer comes down on this administration in the coming days, we will be vindicated, and it will be our mantra to clean up government that will have the high road. All this talk of 'framing' health care and women's rights for the common man will be irrelevant. It will be time for the progressives to once again stand up strong and begin the process of leading our party out of the hinterlands.

DeLay, Frist, Rove, Libby, Cheney, Bush... they're nearly finished. Their revolution is about to get mired down in the mud of their own hubris and corruption. It will be up to us to lead this country out of the morass. And we will have the opportunity to do so.



Display:
Who do you see as being members of "the class of '06"? Do you have specific people/candidates in mind?

I want something else, to get me through this, semi-charmed kinda life..
Third Eye Blind

by brinnainne on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:17:16 AM EST
you can be one of the Plamegate babies.  Maybe Janet Strange can be your campaign manager.
by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL!!

Even in Travis County, I think I'd be better behind the scenes, my past would NOT withstand the scrutinty! But thanks for the vote of confidence!

I want something else, to get me through this, semi-charmed kinda life..
Third Eye Blind

by brinnainne on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
brinnainne, to hell with your past....if you have honesty in your bones, then you have my vote....:o)
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have often siad to my husband that if I didn't have small children, I would already been running for office -- he can take whatever they dish out about me, I don't know that the little guys could, or should have to for that matter....I am seriously thinking about school board though!

I want something else, to get me through this, semi-charmed kinda life..
Third Eye Blind

by brinnainne on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
brinnainne, I really think you should go for it.  REALLY!  The school board should have ppl like you on it.  Parents of all ppl, should have a greater say on such.  I like the idea...hugs...
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
run for office. School board is every bit if not more important than congress.

In a microcosm of the national picture we are running two guys for Town Council here in Stephentown for the first time in about 8 years. It has been one party rule to the point of no challengers. We are changing that and it is clear that the people of this time are ready for that change. Open government with elected officials that are once again held accountable for their actions and inactions. Reform, responsibility, accountability, that's what we are about.

Run for office. You'll win if you try.

The 10,000 Things

by Andrew C White (acwhite.nospam.@taconic.net) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:57:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a bunch of us old progressives pointed out that it was in the city councils and school boards where the Religious Reich made their slow, pernicious march to Take Over America For God; if progressives are going to take back this country, it's going to have to start the same way, with us encouraging younger folks to get involved in the process, no matter how boring it sounds...

Go for it!


"Mr. Bush, you do not own this country!" -- Keith Olbermann, 1/2/07

by Cali Scribe on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do I know about campaign managing? Luckily, at the US Congress level, we have three seats that have Austin included as part of the districts, and there are progressive candidates running in each one - two new ones who remind me a lot of the "Watergate babies" - and yes, I'm old enough to remember that rout in 74. And yes, I feel the same thing in the air as I did then.

But if Brinn wants to run for school board, she and I can both learn on the job how to do this campaigning thingy.

We are all different, but all in the same boat. --Alice

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925athotmaildotcom) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, BooMan... from your lips to God's ears. This is why I love reading your stuff... we all can dance around and speculate endlessly. You have the ability to step back and see the whole picture, then explain it all for the rest of us. Great piece!

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.- Thomas Jefferson
by Nag on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:18:59 AM EST
Merci, Bon Amie.....Very well written.  I want to be along side of you young fellows here that do this job.  I know of this change and I totally agree with you.  We are leaders and always have been.  Those of the DLC are just fringe feathers of fanning the breeze...otherwise knows as bullfeces with $$$.  We/You all have substantial substance to our words.

This is why I remain independent.  Booman, you have got to be the best of the best...Hugs

by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:21:35 AM EST
It would be awesome for your hunch to be true....

This old cynic isn't so sure...for the past 25 years (starting with Reagan) I'm more and more cynical....

But then again the news this morning had the Preznit's approval at 39% and congress's approval at 28%...maybe you are right.

Please let it be so....

by SallyCat on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:24:18 AM EST
I like the optimism.  Hope you are right.  The politics of framing and pandering and vote counting:  I am beyond sick of it.  I would stand behind any candidate who stands up with a purpose aligned with my own.  An epochal change.  Sounds good.

"Have you no sense of decency, sir. At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" -- Boston Attorney Joseph Welch, taking down Sen. Joseph McCarthy.
by BostonJoe on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:25:57 AM EST
I am a bit surprised to see this coming from you, an attorney.  Surely you know that language matters.

Framing is not the answer, but it is a piece of the puzzle.  This country is not comprised of people like us, knowledgeable about most issues and involved outside of the normal four year election cycle.  We have to recognize that most people probably don't even know who the hell Karl Rove is.

Framing doesn't have to be cynical or manipulative, it just acknowledges that how you present issues can have a major impact on how they are perceived by the masses.

by paulucla on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It has to do with stating issues with a sense of conviction - not nuance. This is what people are waiting for. I am convinced of it!

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert
by NLinStPaul on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:37:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The two are not mutually exclusive.
by paulucla on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that they are not mutually exclusive. But I just wish the Democrats would spend as much time on talking with conviction as they do on "framing." At least give it equal time (although I think the "conviction thing" is more important.)

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert
by NLinStPaul on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The only core party value that there is for me is people........and what isn't working for the  betterment of the people isn't working for me and isn't working for the party I belong to.  What the people need is what I am about.  We need healthcare where every 30 cents of every dollar we spend isn't going to an Administrative structure trying to figure out how to deny us healthcare......that's nuts.  It needs to go to nurses and aides and xray equipment, fuck that kind of nuts!  We need a lot of things and that is what MY PARTY is about, IT IS ABOUT WHAT IS NEEDED!  Not framing shit to sell it, you don't have to sell what the people need - they'll take it off your hands right there!  Tired of annoying analysis from computer chairs, Kos is just about as out of touch with the real world as the DLC anymore.  Get out in the trenches!  Get yourself dirty in the real world where all the answers to all of our party questions can be easily found!

PMS Purchase More Shoes
by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:30:37 AM EST
Tracy Girl, you are one remarkable person.  Hugs...I am getting more familar with your ways of thinking as time goes on.  Hearts that think alike stand together in the land of politics.  Applaud!!!!!!!!!!!
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:45:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brenda, you are right about our Tracy. She has a talent for clear thinking, using her uncanny common sense as her guide. Great comment, Tracy.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.- Thomas Jefferson
by Nag on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only core party value that there is for me is people........and what isn't working for the  betterment of the people isn't working for me and isn't working for the party I belong to.  What the people need is what I am about.

Perfect.  Awesome.  

by Emma Anne (emma_anne -at- mac.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since I don't post at dKos...

New school progressives are also less tolerant of ideological orthodoxy. We don't fall in line with the "acceptable" liberal position, frankly, because we're not trained to fall in line. We are more likely to be educated in an economy that values "proactiveness" and "self-initiative" and "problem solving" over blindly following the orders of our boss.

I swear kos wakes up in the morning and asks himself, "let's see...who can I alienate today?".

You want proactiveness and self-initiative? Learn your history! I guess all of those anti-war and civil rights and women's liberation movements in the 50s, 60s and 70s were just about falling in line, right?

C'mon...geez..."ideological othodoxy" my ass.

(And great diary, Boo.)

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:36:15 AM EST
Catnip, I like you do not go to the other site unless a link to that site is given for reading.  I used to, just to see what is being said.  I do not need it for thought since I have you all here.  You are right..lots of ppl over there are out of touch, simply, with the rest of us here in the real world.
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:47:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I'm concerned, people who have no respect for history ought not be predicting what will happen in the future.
by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
perhaps he envisions himself the new school nostradamos... no need to learn history if you think you already have all the answers about the future.
by spiderleaf (spiderleaf at gmail dot com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:o)..so true!!!!!!!!!!
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Catnip -

You've got great comments throughout this thread today.

I'm reluctant to pile on about Kos because I think we have more productive things to do, but I'll just say this - as one of those old-school ideologues I see precious little thought on his part about WHAT we're going to do once we're back in power and WHY we want to get there - it's not about the winning, it's about helping the people once we run the bums out!  And if we're not planning that now ("ideology") we're going to win and end up saying "OK, now what?" while the Republicans are planning their comeback, as they did to Carter.

I made the comment the other day that we needed to get our think tanks going, and someone commented that they didn't like think tanks.  Perhaps I expressed myself poorly - what I meant was just the above: we need to figure WHY we deserve to win and WHAT we're going to do once in power, or otherwise we're rudderless and prone to lethargy and corruption once in power.  We need the discipline of a public statement that puts us on the hook for results, or we'll just slosh around and fritter away our chance.  And Lord knows the world can't afford that!

"Money ruined Democracy. Washington is lost. We only have the grassroots left." - Bill Moyers

by Knoxville Progressive (green_planet_2000 (at) yahoo (dot) com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not to get greedy.  Our job is to win the next election, not to win the next four in a row.  And the two goals are not mutually exclusive.  And the work on the goals can go on in tandem, and should.

But we do not have to resolve the split within the party before we take power, we must prevail once we gain power.

These are complex algorithms.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was my thought exactly. As a proud member of the Question Authority generation, I don't consider myself and my peers prone to "falling in line."

Of course, the hubris of the young is to be expected. After all, we were guilty of the same. It is every generation's birthright to believe they can change the world.

by jgreenleaf (jenny AT dpo DOT org) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 03:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that the pendulum may have swung about as far to the right as is possible. But I remain extremely annoyed with Kos's dismissal of what he calls 'ideology' because it's impossible to nuance that bias to express what looks very like an impatience and dismissal of deeply held values which Kos and the NDN do not share. He appears to be positioning himself as The Voice of Youth and the Future whereas he's always been quite conservative and old fashioned in his thinking about social policy and particularly in his thinking about poverty and his dismissal of women's issues. (Indeed, he completely dismisses 'women's issues' as not worthy of his attention and treats this important demographic as unworthy of a seat in the so-called big tent.)
He's a modular thinker and the fact of the matter is that modular thinkers aren't the Voice of the Future. His success has been a result of grasping one of the potential uses for a new method of communication, not in Democratic strategy and certainly not public policy or forming a comprehensive and uniting message for a Democratic platform and that cannot be achieved by dismissing people's values in favor of a world view which makes politics into a sort of sports competition with the parties as teams. That sort of thinking is completely alien and alienating to many voters and certainly many voters who used to be reliable Democratic voters.
by the other colleen on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:39:57 AM EST
Beyond that: Markos is a technocrat, and views things in technocratic terms. As a computer geek, he's infected with the field's pseudo-Libertarianism and level-playing-field mythology. In his world, anyone who's anyone has gotten there because they know their stuff, not because they're the right gender or class or race - and anything that challenges that perspective is heresy. It's a tempting world view - but it ignores many of the realities of our society, realities that need to be accounted for in any progressive platform.

Also, when he writes about 'results' vs. 'orthodoxy', he's writing it from the perspective of someone who isn't holding power. It's amazing how orthodox the revolutionaries become once they come into power; he's deluding himself if he thinks his 'New New Democrats' will be any different.

protected static string[] myBlog;

by protected static (static at my-user-name-dot-com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the men & women at the top may be finished, as you say. And no-one is looking forward to the fucking frog-march parade more than me!

But while their "revolution" may be mired, these things are still round and still revolve.  

The most important progressive step, bar none, is preparing the next generation to take control of the cycles.  That is: all children need to learn to think critically and they need the food and shelter and love that allows education to work.  Enacting this concept needs to be THE progressive goal.

 

there is no such thing as history. there are only historians.

by S2 on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:55:41 AM EST
{{{{The most important progressive step, bar none, is preparing the next generation to take control of the cycles.  That is: all children need to learn to think critically and they need the food and shelter and love that allows education to work.  Enacting this concept needs to be THE progressive goal.}}}}   Why must one wait for the next generation to get the job done?!  I want to have it before I demise...I am not getting any younger here, my dear.  I have wanted this for ever so long.....
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We can start sooner if you like.

Now that I have (six-month old) children, I see all the world through that filter.  


there is no such thing as history. there are only historians.

by S2 on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
how soon are we talking here?    Might I be allowed to say yesterday or at least 5+ years ago....:o)
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:28:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I've got two diapers to change, and some cereal to feed, and then a walk to the store, but when the girls' mom gets back, I might be able to start.

Of course maybe I can do some work while we stroll....

there is no such thing as history. there are only historians.

by S2 on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Today, I will help you with the chores...:o)
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:46:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
S2, Hon, I am not trying to argue with you here...I happen to agree with you, certainly.  The children ARE our future..we have got to leave them with more than the crap we have now for their lives to be productive in many ways.  I, for one, will depend on them for doing the right thing for me in the future.  Hugs.......
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
of course we agree.  

its all (gonna be) good.

best to you.

there is no such thing as history. there are only historians.

by S2 on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yell it from the mountaintop Booman! The left is on the march!

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by Salunga on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:55:52 AM EST
You might be interested in what David Sirota has to say about this subject.  He's not as optimistic as you are.

I agree with his idea that movements are born outside of political parties and only direct the party platforms after the popular momentum has become irresistible.

The so-called "War on Terror" (SCWOT) IS Terrorism!

by liberalelite on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 10:58:08 AM EST
I would love to know how Sirota is defining "progessive" because in reading the article, it seems that every thing he says about them is what we rail agsinst here on almost a daily basis. What do you think?

I want something else, to get me through this, semi-charmed kinda life..
Third Eye Blind

by brinnainne on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:05:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would love to know how Sirota is defining "progessive"

I imagine that he's refering to the originators of the term, at least in modern day politics.

disclaimer:(I'm not a 'progressive', I am now and always have been a liberal. Well, except for those 6 months of attraction to Ayn Rand when I was 17)

by the other colleen on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a lot of agreement with Sirota.

  1. I hate framing, absolutely can't stand it.  I also can't stand people that worry about whether stuff we say on these blogs are going to destroy our chances in elections.

  2. When I'm feeling cynical, I think we can say anything as long as we say it like we mean it.  But I do believe our electoral problems are exaggerated.  Gore won, and Kerry may have as well.  In any case, Kerry lost by no more than 60,000 votes in Ohio, of which at least half were suppressed, and more probably stolen.

  3. Hillary must be stopped at all costs.

  4. Brown and Hackett deserve a fair hearing.

  5. Wesley Clark is not a progressive.

But... my thesis is that Sirota is not writing a description so much as an obituary on an era that is rapidly coming to an end.
by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:19:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems to me that if bloggers want to claim victories for uncovering and pushing on scandals, then they (we) must also take responsibility for taking the wrong lessons from events. You can't cherry pick on this.

Also, why all this opposition to framing? All it means is talking about our values, our ideas, our policies on our terms, and not based on premises and using vocabulary defined by conservatives.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Framing" has certainly had its fifteen minutes, but it's silly to dismiss the good ideas it provides.  It doesn't fundamentally change anything, but an awareness of language as a tool helps a lot.

I sympathize with "framing fatigue," but throwing Lakoff's ideas out completely would be a lovely step backwards.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:49:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
{{{Also, why all this opposition to framing? All it means is talking about our values, our ideas, our policies on our terms, and not based on premises and using vocabulary defined by conservatives. }}}}  To me I would like to change the whole process of defination.  I think we ought to call it something else other than framing.  I do not know what the acutal word is I am thinking here but it is not framing...just my feeling tho...
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...as long as we do it.

media girl
by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying we have to reframe "framing"?
by paulucla on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. I don't agree that is all that framing is.  Framing is a concession to the stupidity and impressionability of the electorate.  It is cynical thru and thru.  (That doesn't mean it isn't effective).

  2. Obsessive focus on framing leads to the kind of thinking we are suffering from now.  'We could really convince southerners to vote for pro-choice candidates if we just framed it as a privacy issue'.  Not a chance.  We must educate voters on the issue of choice, not merely frame.  And when framing fails we wind up falling back and picking our own anti-choice candidates.

  3. Then that leads to picking anti-choice candidates in the north all of a sudden.

No, fuck framing.  Give me combat, give me education, give me unapologetic strength on an issue that is a loser in the polls, not framing to obfuscate its current weakness.
by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I got from Lakoff is that liberals and progressives are trying to argue their positions using conservative ideas, conservative premises, conservative vocabulary.

It is set up for failure.

To put such a cynical marketing spin on it I believe is your work, not Lakoff's.

Or do you think you really can just not think of an elephant?

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BooMan, I agree with this:
Framing is a concession to the stupidity and impressionability of the electorate.  It is cynical thru and thru.

Yes it is.  It is sales and marketing, with a touch of manipulative psychology thrown in.

In a perfect world, a grassroots education campaign on the real impacts of restricting women's health care choice could open the eyes of swing voters and win them to our side of the issue.  But I am cynical through and through.  That's not happening.  We have to compete in the sound bite space as well.

Perhaps "framing" as a brand name is tired.  But you know what's even more tired?  Democrats who talk like Republicans, and are then surprised when they lose, lose, lose.  If we ignore framing, we will continue to have Democrats kneecapping themselves by using terms like "pro-life" and "death tax" and "Social Security modernization."

That is what leads to Bill Ritter for Governor in Colorado, and Bill Casey for Senator in Pennsylvania in my opinion.  Framing simply says "be aware of how language works and why to avoid using Republican terminology."  We ignore it at our peril.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we had a better conclusion to our framing debate...sorry to engage you on two fronts.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!
by ubikkibu on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...because if we can't agree on the term, then we're not communicating. (Disclosure: I've now framed the dialogue here in terms of the dialectic.)

From "Don't Think of an Elephant" p. 100 in FAQ:

The notion of reframing sounds manipulative. How is framing different from spin or propaganda?

Framing is normal. Every sentence we say is framed in some way. When we say what we believe, we are using frames that we think are relatively accurate. When a conservative uses the "tax relief" frame, chances are that he or she really believes that taxation is an affliction. However, frames can be used manipulatively. The use, for example, of "Clear Skies Act" to name an act that increases air pollution is a manipulative frame. And it's used to cover up a weakness that conservatives have, namely that the public doesn't like legislation that increases air pollution, and so they give it a name that conveys the opposite frame. That's pure manipulation.

Spin is the manipulative use of a frame. Spin is used when something embarrassing has happened or has been said, and it's an attempt to put an innocent frame on it -- that is, to make the embarrassing occurrence sound normal or good.

Propaganda is another manipulative use of framing. Propaganda is an attempt to get the public to adopt a frame that is not true and is known not to be true, for the purpose of gaining or manipulating political control.

The reframing I am suggesting is neither spin nor propaganda. Progressives need to learn to communicate using frames that they really believe, frames that express what their moral views really are. I strongly recommend against any deceptive framing. I think it is not just morally reprehensible, but also impractical, because deceptive framing usually backfires sooner or later.

Page 105:

So all I have to do to reframe my issue is think up some sound bite-worthy terms and use them in place of the conservative terms?

No! Reframing is not just about words and language. Reframing is about ideas. The ideas have to be in place in people's brains before the sound bite can make any sense. For example, take the idea of "the commons" -- that is, our common inheritance, like the atmosphere or the electromagnetic spectrum (bandwidths). These are common inheritances of all humanity, and most people who discuss them in this way refer to them as "the commons." Yet the idea of a common inheritance and of using it for the public good is not yet part of the frame structure that most people use every day. For this reason you can't just make up a sound bite about the commons and have most people understand it and agree with it.

The book is 119 pages -- a relatively short read. And it's formatted to be easy to scan. If anyone reading this here has not actually read the book, I can't recommend it highly enough.

At the very least, just pick it up and glance at it in the bookstore. Flip to chapter one and just read one or two pages. Flip to p. 110.

Framing is not something to be scared about or sickened over -- it's a short and incisive explication of what's been happening in our political discourse. We ignore it at our peril.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sirota:

Second, even for those concerned more about electoral victories than ideology, this Partisan War Syndrome that subverts ideological movements ultimately hurts electoral prospects.

Bingo.

Stick that in your progressive pipe and smoke it, kos.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh...and thanks for the French title. :)
by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:17:14 AM EST
we're still waiting for a translation :)
by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It says, "catnip rocks!". :)
by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It does not!

It says: "Bush is dead! Long live Connecticut Man1!"

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by Connecticut Man1 (connecticutman1 ATsbcglobal DOT net) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:46:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it translates into The king is dead, long live the king.  Taken from Lord of the Ring, if I am not mistaken.
by BrendaStewart (stormyweather1@hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"The Queen is dead... long live the King"

Shakespeare's last performance before Elizabeth I takes place on February 2nd. Elizabeth dies on February 24th.

James VI of Scotland is proclaimed King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland as James I. James is very enthusiastic about the theatre, and in May Shakespeare's company is given letter of patent to become the King's acting company.

Despite the general optimism that greets James I's accession, "political" sonnets written by Shakespeare at this time seem to show he finds his new role as a player/playwright/courtier hard to take. He is forty years old and, like most men of his age, probably becoming braver and more belligerent in his opinions.

Support BooTrib

by Connecticut Man1 (connecticutman1 ATsbcglobal DOT net) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:05:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The translation is correct. The source is actually historical, not literary -- it refers to the immediacy of succession, that the rule of the next king began immediately upon the death of his predecessor, so there was an unbroken line of royal authority.

But a change in the kingship meant a change on many levels, or at least the potential for change (just as today, officers of government scramble to retain power however they can). And it raises the potential of another sea change on the horizon in American politics... may it be so. We need a serious change -- not just in Administration (though that is also necessary) but the way government is run.

Keith Olbermann speaks for me.

by JanetT in MD on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Booman, I sure hope you are right, because I am getting roundly sick up and fed of the current gang of thugs.

I suppose I could live through a new Dark Ages if that's the hand I was dealt, but frankly, I look at my granddaughter and think there's no way I want to subject her to what's in store for her if this goes on.

----------------------------------------------
Our Man In Redmond is now Omir the Storyteller

by Our Man in Redmond (omir.the.storyteller -DORT- gmail -ART- com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:18:31 AM EST
future are being seeded now.  We are seeing people come to the blogs when they are running for office.  And we are seeing people like Cindy Sheehan creating a wholly new presence in the world - creating people out of casualty figures where Bush only wanted shadows.  There is definitely more to come.  I haven't seen the entrenched dems yet embrace the concepts of cleaning house, but the lobbying scandals are hitting them as well.  It is possible that some fed proscecuter will help us clean house there as well!

Grandma Jo
by glitterscale (glitteryscale@yahoo.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:19:25 AM EST
While Nixon crashed and burned, and the Dems enjoyed a bubble, the conservatives were waging their "war of ideas" ... and what came of it?

Jimmy Carter served one term.

Democratic control that had existed even then for decades started to slip.

The Republicans ended up with the lasting victory.

So I would say the lesson of 1973 is to not avoid the war of ideas, not to avoid the values talk, because to play inside-the-beltway hardball without a game plan may win an inning or two, but will not win the ballgame.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:21:32 AM EST
Jimmy Carter served one term.

Democratic control that had existed even then for decades started to slip.

That's why the Dems need oustanding leaders and a very clear agenda that is doable. That's a tough challenge now that the Repubs have plunged the country into so much debt but it can be done by being practical and not to the detriment of Democratic ideals that are at the core of the party.

That's why I disagree with kos when he refers to ideological orthodoxy in such a negative way. If you don't have ideals, you don't stand for anything and no amount of new-fangled, wiz bang strategy will save you.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point, catnip.

And look what else we have in common with 1973:

An atrociously expensive foreign war draining the coffers and splitting the populace. Only Iraq is proving to be much more expensive.

An oil crisis. But ours looks to continue until there is no more oil.

Simply taking over power without having a plan, so that the Democrats can simply inherit all these problems, is not a recipe for long-term success.

Anti-corruption talk only works until you're elected. Then suddenly all the corruption talk is about you.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:48:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure what you mean by that. I think one of the biggest failing of the liberals/Dems is the kneejerk response of "that would never fly". You can see it here and on all the other liberal sites every time somebody wants to talk about ideas for the future. Things become doable because people make them doable.

What makes me less bubbly than Boo about the current situation is that I have no idea at all what the Dems would do if they did come to power. Which means, if they don't figure it out quick, they won't be in power for long.

Bush is "the first President to admit to an impeachable offense." --Former Nixon counsel John Dean

by DaveW on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
doable=realistic

I'm a "practical idealist". That's what the Dems need to aim for.

What makes me less bubbly than Boo about the current situation is that I have no idea at all what the Dems would do if they did come to power.

And that's where Dem supporters come in. Those with the power need to know exactly what you want and we can talk about definitions of "progressives" and "framing" and new whoop-dee-doo Democratic youth and netroots all we want, but if they don't get the message about the issues, we have failed.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Compassionate Conservatives, meet the Practical Liberals.  

Will have to follow your link, but as far as the Dems go, still no idea where they would take us if we gave them the wheel.  

While I trust the destination will be to my liking and possibly somewhat of my choosing, many others do not share my trust.  

In the battle of ideas, Dems have been pretty much satisfied to keep their powder dry.  Qustion is whether it has all blown away along with their will.

First you win the argument, then you win the vote.


Think of our constitution as a levy. Think of our democracy as New Orleans. Now, what are you prepared to do?

by Into The Woods on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 08:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and allowed himself to be caught up in events, rather than taking control of events. It's a horrific thought, but if Reagan or one of the Bushes had been in the Oval Office when the hostages were taken, we probably would have invaded Iraq, with the blessing of the United Nations.

We need a plan, we need to take a stand and define what we believe in, and we need a leader who can react definitively to crises. A lot of people thought they saw that in GWB -- that's why he got "elected". (Whatever you think about whether the elections were rigged, GWB got enough votes to make a victory look plausible.) But we're seeing now that it was pretty much just an act, or maybe now that he's in his second term Bush is in "Fuck it, it's not like I can run again" mode. Do the Democrats have such a leader? I'm not really sure...


"Mr. Bush, you do not own this country!" -- Keith Olbermann, 1/2/07

by Cali Scribe on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that I typed "invaded Iraq" instead of "Iran" -- but then again, if GWB had been in office, we would have invaded Iraq instead of Iran...

"Mr. Bush, you do not own this country!" -- Keith Olbermann, 1/2/07
by Cali Scribe on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:00:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The politics of framing and pandering and vote counting:  I am beyond sick of it.
Couldn't agree more- I have always hated the 'framing' BS-smacks of lying and propaganda.
by shycat (painebillATHotmail) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:22:38 AM EST
Attacking the GOP as the power-grabbing party of crime, corruption, and cronyism is the very essence of framing.

The GOP is trying to pre-emptively counter-frame by calling this "the criminalization of politics."  And they'll get away with it, if your ostrich-like attitude toward framing prevails amongs Democrats and progressives.

Framing has nothing to do with pandering, any more than mathematics has to do with tax-cheating.  

In fact, George Lakoff is very explicit in rejecting the GOP-lite route. From Don't Think of An Elephant:

A third mistake is this: There is a metaphor that political campaigns are marketing campaigns where the candidate is the product and the candidate's positions on issues are the features and qualities of the product. This leads to the conclusion that polling should determine which issues a candidate should run on. Here's a list of issues. Which show the highest degree of support for a candidate's position? If it's prescription drugs, 78 percent, you run on a platform featuring prescription drugs. Is it keeping social security? You run on a platform featuring social security. You make a list of the top issues, and those are the issues you run on. You also do market segmentation: District by district, you find out the most important issues, and those are the ones you talk about when you go to that district. It does not work. Sometimes it can be useful, and, in fact, the Republicans use it in addition to their real practice. But their real practice, and the real reason for their success, is this: They say what they idealistically believe. They say it; they talk to their base using the frames of their base. Liberal and progressive candidates tend to follow their polls and decide that they have to become more "centrist" by moving to the right. The conservatives do not move at all to the left, and yet they win!

Why? What is the electorate like from a cognitive point of view? Probably 35 to 40 percent of people--maybe more these days--have a strict father model governing their politics. Similarly, there are people who have a nurturant view governing their politics, probably another 35 to 40 percent. And then there are all the people in the "middle."

....

The goal is to activate your model in the people in the "middle." The people who are in the middle have both models, used regularly in different parts of their lives. What you want to do is to get them to use your model for politics --to activate your worldview and moral system in their political decisions. You do that by talking to people using frames based on your worldview.

In fact, this is fundamental point that Markos missed about the whole Ohio vote fraud issue.  He saw it as a distraction from the "real work of politics."  But it was actually a golden opportunity to reinforce the GOP power-grab frame--about which Lakoff also writes.

Of course the GOP will scream bloody murder whenever we do this.  That's how we know we're doing the right thing.

by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:55:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
on this at all.

You don't just pick a frame because it sounds good.  You pick it because it polls well.

Framing isn't picking an issue like prescription drugs because the issue sells well.  Framing is figuring out the best language to get people to support an insanely expensive new entitlement (to use a GOP frame).

It's pure marketing.  

I call it a dogshit scoop, you call it a pooper-scooper.  You sell more of them.

I call it assistance to unwed mothers, you show a black crackhead on line at the welfare office.

I call it more money for schools, you say it is your money their spending.  

I call it privacy, you call it murder.

I call it affirmative action, you call it reverse discrimination.

What is missed is the facts, the merits, the reason I want to pick up my dog's shit in the first place.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't just pick a frame because it sounds good.  You pick it because it polls well.

No, you already have an issue position you want to promote, and then you frame it to your best advantage.

I do see where the "technology" of framing can itself be valueless, but framing is simply a way to get people to think about an issue in terms of your values.  I don't understand how using language this way strips the issue of its merits, although anything can be misused of course.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:32:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to be disagreeing with me but you aren't.

Let's say that we think it is important to have class sizes no bigger than 18 students in our public schools.  That is our idea, the merit of which is based on studies that show that classes larger than that wind up ill-serving many students.

Framing is deciding how to communicate the merits of this idea, and/or hide its downside.  

It's not discussing it in a rational matter, citing studies, and pontificating on cost/benefit analysis.

It's countering the accusations that it is a federal intrusion into local schoolboards, that it is throwing good money after bad, that it is your money, that it's a give away to urban schools, etc.

An effective counterattack is difficult, but that is the job of framing.  Framing is important.  But  it has taken over the job of policy formation.

And lastly, you can usually do better by just saying, "I'm for goddamn small class sizes, America's children deserve it."

Mind you, that is NOT framing. That is just a declarative statement.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And lastly, you can usually do better by just saying, "I'm for goddamn small class sizes, America's children deserve it."

Plain talk can be the best framing.  [Ducks head]

No really.  The above is a statement of values that does not employ Republican-leaning words like "school choice" or "performance accountability," etc.  It's the kind of thing Howard Dean tosses out, usually after having used several lovingly crafted framing sentences, and it's why I will still do anything the Governor asks me to.

So obviously we're converging on a common ground, which is always good.  I do see your point that framing can be used to hide details of what ideally should be an open policy debate that does not hide the tradeoffs or negative aspects of our position.

I guess I do see what you hope for--a renewal of civic debate and honest, open issue debate by candidates--as unrealistic and naive.  We hear entire speeches that never mention details.  Even some of our better leaders hurt us regularly by reinforcing Republican ways of thinking.  I think framing provides a realization of the power of words that many Democratic politicians lack.

But your argument is persuasive.  Dean's plain and honest policy talk made him a hero well before he or I had read Lakoff, and somehow actively framing things became very natural for him.  And he does it in a way that I don't think leads to any of the intellectual dishonesty you see.  Framing is a tool that can be used well or poorly, but we need it in our toolbox.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The GOP spends about 200 million dollars a year in just "framing" their lies... and people believe them.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
come as a shock to a lot of people, although I've made it clear before...but

I could never stand Howard Dean.  I didn't like the way he talked, or his facial expressions, or his gestures, and I found him utterly unpersuasive even when I agreed with him.

The only thing I found appealing was when he dropped his comments about gunracks, his incredibly bad timing and tone-deaf downers (like poo-pooing the capture of Saddam the same day he was captured), and just called Bush a crook and a liar.

I said, "Hark, what did I hear?  Did he just call the President a lying fraud?" That's my man Howie.

In other words, his frank talk was his appeal, at least to me, but his lack of political skills meant that his frank talk, and inappropriate pep-rallies were as much of a downside as an upside.

I'll make it up to you Deaniacs.  I promise.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well most Dean supporters got beyond the superficial and recognized that Dean was the best candidate to lead the country.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was the Republican "framing" of Dean that killed his chances. It was done so well, the dems bought it. Just look at the Dean "scream" frame. Framing, imho, is not a bad word it is just how it is used. Take any issue and put it into its best light by framing it properly. Framing is a marketing tool. Let's use it to our advantage. You don't have to lie in order to frame something. Jeez, they even called the folks that wrote the Constitution "Framers".

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.
by alohaleezy on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First impressions are hard to break.

I loved Howard from the moment I heard him yelling "What I Want to Know."  He's the guy we told...ordered, actually...to bring a bat on stage for his next appearance.  A bunch of bloggers posting just like this, and a few hours later, here's Howard swinging the bat at his next stage appearance.

Now that is people power.

"Inappropriate pep rallies?"  I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I guaran-damn-tee you BooMan Tribune would be a ghost town without the energy Howard catalyzed.

I disagree strongly with several of Howard's issue positions.  But he has arrived at them honestly, through thought and debate and compromise.  I ask for nothing more.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL.  In any case I eshew the term "Deaniac".  It always was pejorative, esp when used by the press... despite the fact supporters embraced it...

One question, if I may, who did you support in the primary (that crowded horse race) and why.

Sorry, if you wanna swipe one guy (tho he led in spectacular fashion for a while and now is DNC Chair, an interesting trajectory) then, please, state who got your vote.

So,
-who did yuo support early on?  And
-who did you vote for in the PA primary?

(I was Dean from July 2002 and voted for him March 2 in CA)

by Marisacat (Marisacat@aol.com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 03:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This statement is false:
Framing is deciding how to communicate the merits of this idea, and/or hide its downside.
 Framing can be used to communicate the merits of an idea and/or hide its downside.  But framing is much, much more than that.  

For example, optical illusions work by showing us that we are subconsciously processing visual information that we didn't even know existed.  And a crucial part of that processing involves framing.  The most obvious are the optical illusions involving a picture that can be read two different ways.  But other optical illusions involve framing as well, because neural computing is heavily reliant on framing of information in order to further process it.  (See, for example, illustrations involving checkerboards, where the 'light' square in shadow is the same shade as the 'dark' square in direct light.)

The same is true of cognitive processing.  You can assert that framing and rational discourse are two opposite things.  But mere assertion is not rational argument.  Ironically, in this case, it's simply the arbitrary invoction of the either/or frame.

by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:13:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the problem with the framologists is that they insist that absolutely everything is framing.

Framing must be defined, and that means limiting in some way.  It can't be both 'Healthy Forests' AND a dissertation on the benefits of clear-cutting for forest health.

If we are talking about cognitive function we are talking about the visceral, right?  Not a damned debate.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The circulatory system pervades the entire human body.  But that doesn't mean it IS the entire human body.  The same is true of framing and human cognition.  

By focusing on one narrow manifestation--the conservative/GOP use of propagandistic framing ala Luntz, Gingrich, et al--you are blinding yourself to the big picture.  And you need to reconnect to the big picture in order to have a truly accurate and effective critique of conservative framing, as well as an effective counter-response.

Janet Strange really did hit the nose on the head.  It's about getting clear on our values, and articulating our political positions as a direct expression of them.  And Parker was right, too. It's about realizing when we are using conservative frames ourselves, and reversing the process, so that they are using our frames.

In fact, the entire internal debate about frames among Democrats and progressives is, in a sense, another example of this.  You have accepted the conservative frame on framing--"It's what we do!"  And this is highly misleading, both for those who oppose it and for those who endorse it.

There are a lot of people who misunderstand and misapply Lakoff's message.  That's bound to happen with any newly introduced idea of sufficient scope.  And you are right to criticize those who use framing as an excuse for not doing other things--or as a justification for moving to the center, which Lakoff explicitly rejects.  I will join you wholeheartedly in either of these endeavors. But your critique will be far superior if you take the time to get inside the whole logic of framing, and develop a more precise critique of how people are misusing it.

by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think framing is:

It is a focus on the non-rational or pre-rational or subconscious effects of words, and an attempt to exploit the susceptibility of the human mind to these types of coercive arguments.

If you repeat GOP frames you are doing their work for them.  You can always improve the attractiveness of your policies by improving the wording you use to describe them.  That is why I keep saying framing is important.

My critique is that the Democrats seem to think that  they don't have to change their policies, they just need to package them better.  And when that packaging fails, as it almost always seems to do, they abandon framing in favor of actually moving to the right.

My idea is that framing is a losing argument when your policies are sound.  If you are losing a framing argument, then just make a declarative statement.  'I am for abortion on demand dammit, and if you don't like it you can eat your hat' will sell better in Okalahoma than any attempt to use 'anti-choice' 'government intrusion' or any other visceral triggers.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 01:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're getting more specific, which is good.  But you're still throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  And you still seem to have totally ignored the fact that Lakoff is not a moderate!  He is not arguing for a GOP-lite strategy, he is arguing against it!  (How many exclamation marks do I need? Damn it!!!!!)

Now, I agree with your criticism where it applies.  Those who misread and misapply Lakoff would lead us astray.  And the failure of their misguided efforts would be used as further fuel by the rightward marchers. But your over-the-top straw-man attack does nothing to clarify the situation, and only further splits people apart.  It's a whole lot of heat and not much light.  And it comes from someone who is generally just the opposite.

by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:09:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are losing a framing argument, then just make a declarative statement.  'I am for abortion on demand dammit, and if you don't like it you can eat your hat' will sell better in Okalahoma than any attempt to use 'anti-choice' 'government intrusion' or any other visceral triggers.

You are in fact proving the importance of framing by attempting to reframe how to discuss reproductive rights. You may be right about this issue -- heaven knows the right has been dominating the debate for years -- but your argument here is for a different frame.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this is what I hate about this debate.

Framing cannot be everything.  You cannot state that every possible thing I say is but a different frame.

A frame is using a word or words that effect a person on a non-rational basis.

the word 'anti' is bad
the word 'pro' is good

that's framing

'I support x, take it or leave it' IS NOT A FRAME.

What people are responding to is not the words but the self-assurance.  

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...is that you don't seem to define framing in the same way the rest of us are. That's fine, but please don't pretend to critique what we call framing because you hold to a different definition of the word.

A frame is using a word or words that effect a person on a non-rational basis.

Not true. A frame is what is evoked by language. Look at the gay debate:

"Should gays get special rights?"

"Should gays be denied basic civil rights?"

Two statements on the same issue: gay marriage. Neither is irrational -- there's a factual basis for either interpretation -- but they evoke different frames, and how one talks about what one believes is essential if one hopes to convince people who might agree with you, but have been looking at things differently.

So ignoring frames, like Kerry did on this issue, will only backfire. (Kerry bought into the right-wing frame that gay marriage is wrong and an intrusion for special rights, and tried to moderate the position by supporting civil unions -- and lost the argument on that issue.)

I responded in more detail in a different comment as to what framing is, as described by Lakoff.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is why it is not rational.

Is anyone proposing that gays get 'special rights'?

No. Not really.  Not rationally.

They are proposing that gays get the same rights, not special rights.

Therefore, this question is leading and dishonest.  That is a frequent problem with frames.

A better example would be:

Are you anti-gay marriage?
Are you pro-the protection of marriage act?

Now, those two ways of asking the question are basically synonymous.

But you will get different poll results depending on which one you ask.  The difference has nothing to do with the proposed act. Nothing.

That's framing.

Now, you can increase your odds by being dishonest or inflammatory.

You can ask:

Do you support bigamy, beastiality, and gay marriage?

or:

Do think homos should be able to get married?

Those frames will bias the listener against a positive response.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 03:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Therefore, this question is leading and dishonest.  That is a frequent problem with frames.

between you and Media Girl. I hope noone will mind if I ask a question to both of you.

So, what's the difference between 'frames' and 'spin'?

Because the startling degree of dishonesty which characterises our national political discourse and which you're quite rightly objecting to seems to me to be far more widespread than 'framing'. I do think that readers of Lakoff use the notion of framing in a slightly different manner than you are doing and tentatively suggest that the problem isn't framing as much as a desire to package and sell policies and candidates with not only a disregard for the truth but an active antipathy towards honesty. It's as if speaking truth isn't considered a viable option and people are no longer able to call a lie what it is.

by the other colleen on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 03:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "special rights" are being able to marry someone of the same legal sex.

Not rational? Spare me.

media girl

by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have the right to get married to a woman.
You have the right to get married to a man.

You can call this 'the right to get married'.

Do gay people have the right to get married?  Yes.  But not to a person of the same gender.  Ergo, being gay, their right to get married is effectively annulled.

We can quibble about the degree of annullment since countless gay people have had straight marriages.

But if a gay person wins the right to marry a person of their own gender, I also win that right.

Therefore, they do not get any special right that I do not also receive.

Therefore, they have no advantage over me, and they have no 'special right'.

If you suggest that they will get a right that I do not have, that is dishonest and will bias me against supporting the policy change.

I.e. per your example, they are not equivalent questions.

by BooMan on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't agree with it. I'm just saying that there's a rationale behind the homophobic agenda.

media girl
by media girl on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 09:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]