Booman Tribune

Why Booman Hates Framing... He Just Doesn't Get It!

by Paul Rosenberg
Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 12:17:47 PM EST

Booman hates framing because he just doesn't get it.  And he just doesn't get it because he's been schooled in the one of the Western Tradition's Big Lies--the Big Lie of disembodied knowledge.

He says:

Understanding Lakoff's framing theories involves understanding basic logic. And I don't feel like giving an academic explanation of all the intricacies of symbolic logic. So, I'll just use layman's terms.

To which media girl quite rightly responded:

Thanks for the contempt

Silly me! I just don't understand logic! Goodness! That means the tarot cards are wrong?!

/sarcasm

Again, I think you're arguing with a straw man. Framing is not willy nilly manipulation.

Booman himself is operating inside a frame.  The frame of disembodied knowledge.  And as media girl quite aptly notes, it's a frame drenched in elitism.  It's also utterly wrong.

The irony and the puzzle to be explained here is that on virtually every specific example Booman and I are in agreement.  But I see them as misunderstands, distortions, misapplications, or corruptions of framing, while he frames them as the essence of framing.  The reason for this, as I see it, is a fundamental, quasi-religious belief in a mythical realm of knowledge beyond framing, beyond the body and the earthly realm, beyond politics, beyond us all.

The frame of disembodied knowledge received its classical formulation in Plato's Theory of Forms.  Plato was entranced with mathematics.  The truths of mathematics do not depend on the senses.  They are what we call analytic truths.  They are truths of reason.  And because they do not depend on what comes in through our senses, they appear to have no dependence on the body, no dependence on the world as we perceive it.  They represent a "higher" truth, dealing with higher objects--numbers.  

Plato took this example, and ran with it.  He assumed that there was an entire realm of similarly higher objects--the "Platonic Forms"--and that all true knowledge was the knowledge of them.  All else was illusion.  He used the metaphor of the cave.  Men dependent on their senses were like men trapped in a cave, and what passed for knowledge among them was nothing but shadows on the wall of the cave.  They knew nothing of the world above, directly illuminated by the Sun--the world of the Platonic Forms.

The problem is, Plato was utterly wrong.  His theory cannot possibly work, because there is no logically coherent way to connect his ideal forms with the empirical world.  Platonists have been trying to solve this problem for 2500, and they have repeatedly failed.  

There are other problems as well, which have not figured as prominently in the annals of philosophy.  One of them was pointed out by America's greatest and most original philosopher, William James.  James--who started out as a neurologist--pointed out that analytic truths were the product of the human nervous system, which in turn was the product of human evolution, which in turn was the product of empirical events.  Thus, James coined the term "backdoor empiricism" for the way in which the physical world gave us analytical truths.

Platonism Est Mort, Vive Platonism!

Despite the fact that Platonism is logically incoherent, it retains enormous appeal for certain kinds of people.  People like me, in fact.  Or at least, who I used to be at one point in my life.  I was a teenage math geek, way back in second grade.  

Platonism in one form or another is constantly being reborn.  And why not?  Logic holds enormous appeal, in part because it's such an efficient way of cutting through BS.  

But human beings aren't logical.  We want and mean and need and value contradictory things.  The answer is not to abandon logic, but realize its limitations.  Logic is a tool.  How do we apply it?  We apply it within a context.  And context is what framing is all about.

In his heart of hearts, it appears to me, Booman would just like to solve all our political problems with a simple equation expressed, perhaps, in the language of formal logic.  I shared that desire, once.  Hell, I share it still.  Only now I know that it's an illusion.

Because he can't do this, Booman sometimes swings to the opposite extreme.  Just SHOUT IT!

And lastly, you can usually do better by just saying, "I'm for goddamn small class sizes, America's children deserve it."
adding
Mind you, that is NOT framing. That is just a declarative statement.

But, as ubikkibu wisely retorts

Plain talk can be the best framing.  [Ducks head]

No really.  The above is a statement of values that does not employ Republican-leaning words like "school choice" or "performance accountability," etc.


Yup!  You can't escape from framing.  Declarative statements involve framing, just like every other form of language.  Booman doesn't like this.  It makes him angry.  He wants his realm of pure Platonic thought.  He wants his policy wonk discussions where real thinking goes on, and problems are solved, once and for all. And everything else that is not what he wants is pure manipulation, which utterly disgusts him:
Framing is a concession to the stupidity and impressionability of the electorate.  It is cynical thru and thru.  (That doesn't mean it isn't effective).

Booman's thinking--reflecting the dominant Western Tradition--is deeply dualistic.  There is the higher realm, the realm of Platonic Forms, of formal logic, of policy wonk discussions, of reason.  And there is the lower realm, of sleazy used car salesmen, politicians, and people who try to frame arguments in ways that reach other people.

This sort of pernicious dualism--in which all that is above is good, and all that is below is bad--is clearly seen as delusional and destructive when we witness it on the right.  "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" we rightly ask of the new Crusaders. But Booman is doing precisely the same sort of thing, only in a more subtle way. But it's just as firmly entrenched in his thinking as anything in the Neocons' or Theocons' group mind.

That's why he can back off momentarily when confronted with compelling evidence, and then a nanosecond later be back to his old ways.  

For example, he was when confronted directly by someone who really knows her stuff, Janet Strange, here:

I heard Lakoff speak a few days after Rove made his asinine comment:
Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.

Lakoff blasted the Democratic response - which sounded a lot like, "No we are not wimps. We don't want to offer terrorists therapy." He said the Democrats should have just changed the f'ing subject.

That they should have said - this war is a disaster, it was sold to the American people on lies, and it has made us and the entire world less safe. Say it loud and don't back down. I do not see this as spinning, packaging, or deceiving.

and he responded:
you keep acting as though I am saying Lakoff is wrong.  I'm not.  I'm saying that using his theories to package failed or unpopular policies won't work.

We can never out-lie the Republicans and we don't want to.

And yet, Booman continues to attack framing, not the misapplication of framing.  Why?  Because, despite his brief backing off, he sees it as fundamentally dishonest.  Logic is good. Rhetoric is bad. Framing comes from the realm of rhetoric, and therefore is inherently bad.

Underlying all this is the ever-reincarnated Platonic dream, involving (1) The belief in objective knowledge. (2) The belief that humans can have such knowledge. (3) The belief that it can be had of the empirical world. (4) The belief that it can be expressed in pure, literal, uncorrupted language.

But Plato was a reactionary. And this vision is not just epistemologically wrong.  It, too, is fundamentally reactionary.  The fact is, knowledge, like freedom, is the product of constant struggle.  We have to fight for it. It is something we construct.  

That is how even the most basic of human cognition operates, not just the formulation of political consciousness, but formation of primative sensations.  This can be seen in optical illusions, which work by revealing something of the mechanisms of how we automatically construct the images of the world that we naively take to "just be there."

Once upon a time, what I am saying here was philosophy.  But now it's science.  We study information processing scientifically.  And one thing we see, over and over and over again is that useful information is constructed out of inputs that need to be pre-processed before they are processed, and then can be formated for output in order to be useful for any other process to use.  That is, information is continually being constructed.  It is not data--which means "given."  Nothing is "given."  

It is taken.

John Van Neuman, meet Frederick Douglas.



Display:
Excellent diary.You cleared alot up for me. I read Lakoff's book and it really hit home for me. Framing can be done honestly and without malice.Thank you for sharing your intellect here.

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.
by alohaleezy on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 12:43:28 PM EST
Frankly, I think it is more powerful to see when frames are being formed so that you don't step into them and get "framed" and also to break them.

The key is not letting the "paint dry" on a frame... you have to smash it before idiots start running around spouting "Blame game" and "Intelligent Design".

Also, the Democratic leadership likes to use frame...unfortunately not against the GOP but it's own base...

  • Ideological Purist
  • Centrist
  • Keeping our powder dry
  • Big Tent
  • Special Interest Groups
  • "Far" left
  • "Old School"


Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lakoff's mission is to raise our consciousness, make us aware of it, and help us learn how to frame things the way that consistently expresses what we want to say.

Would anyone object to someone teaching their child how to form sylables and words?  No, of course not!  Even though the child could just point and scream.

How about objecting to teaching spelling and grammer? Would anyone object to that?  Again, no.

How about teaching English composition? Would anyone object to that?  No?  Didn't think so.

So why object to teaching people how to express their ideas in a contextually consistent fashion?  Why is that a bad thing???

Again, this diary is an answer to that question.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:20:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you... I think it is "curious" to say the least.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...particulary since the Tom Kertes debates... which were premised on the "philosophical merits" of the debate in itself about "Abortion is morally wrong


Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you did answer it.

But the funny thing about this comment is the way it illustrates that there is a language-only focus.

You cannot teach how to author ideas... only statements!

We are writing ideas now... let's all join in.

Again, this is a fantastic piece of work!

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why must you folk overcomplicate everything?

Look, it's quite simple--the techniques of propaganda are well-known:  repeat several simple themes again and again.  That's been proved in every winning political campaign in modern American history.  Call that "framing" if you must; I don't see why we need to have a fancy-schmancy theory behind it.  We know what works--now the question is, why aren't Democrats winning more elections?

There are lots of reasons, and they have nothing to do with "framing" or wrapping up the message in a prettier package. Truth is, you can wrap a rotted fish in the fanciest paper and ribbon money can buy, and the recipient of the gift isn't going to be too happy about getting a rotted fish.

It's the Democratic Party's ideology, not its presentation of its ideology, that is the problem.

Half of all eligible voters don't bother to vote.  If the Democrats could get those non-voters to vote for them, they'd rule the country until the crack of doom.

Now, why don't those people vote?  Is it because they look at the Democrats and the Republicans and say to themselves, "Well, the two parties are just fighting over how big a tax cut they should give to the rich.  Nobody's fighting for ME--so I'm not going to vote for either of them."

Remember, the largest political party in America is NOT the Democrats.  It is NOT the Republicans.

The largest political party in America is called I Am Not Voting For Any Of You Bastards.

I submit to you that while some of the I Am Not Voting Party members fail to vote out of sheer apathy, there are others who have made a conscious decision--millions and millions of them, in fact--not to vote because they haven't got anything worth voting for.  Intead, they get a Democratic Party that so closely resembles the Republican Party that they can scarce distiguish the difference.  A Democratic Party that doesn't bother to run candidates in every congressional district.  A Democratic Party that actively sabotages the candidacies of men like Howard Dean who promise to shake things up.  A Democratic Party that actively collaborates with the Republicans in selling out the poor and the middle class with a bankruptcy bill that was one long sweet kiss to the banks and credit card companies and one big middle finger to the working class.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to overcomplicate things.

In other words, I'm not going to debate framing or embodied knowledge or disembodied knowledge or whether or not people communicate in metaphors or whether Chomsky is right or Lakoff is right--because it just does not matter.

We know what to do.  Why aren't we doing it?  Is it because the Democrats and the Republicans have both been bought by corporate interests?

There are three types of people: those who see, those who see when shown, those who do not see.

by Shadowthief (Shadowthief1962@gmail.com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 04:23:00 AM EST
its because George Bush thinks he can rule like Atilla the Hun when he lost the popular vote and Democrats are afraid to try anything bold even when they win by millions of votes.

They want power, we want to do things.  They fight, we don't.  They will say anything, we are worried about what we say.

Framing is a pinhead elitist distraction.

Having said that, it appears many people get something positive out of these framing discussions, and I don't want to dismiss that.

Let the work continue and we'll see what good can come from it.  But, as for me, I am just plum tired of tortured intellectual debates about why the party sucks when Gore got more votes and Kerry may have won the electoral college.  

We are fighting crooks and liars.  We are not fighting a popular ideology.  No one likes a crook, no one likes a liar, no one is fond of a warmonger, or a war profiteer.  So, let's fucking call it like it is.  

But this has always been my style, ever since impeachment.  Fight, don't talk.  Speak plainly, the facts are on your side.  Win.

by BooMan on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 04:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Booman, my point is that the elections shouldn't even be close enough to steal--IF the Democrats were a working class party that fought against the interests of the ruling class.  The reason elections are so close is because the Democrats are only somewhat less bad than the Republicans (depends on the issue, of course--on some issues, like the environment, the Democrats are remarkably more progressive, but on economic issues the two parties are virtually indistinguishable).

I agree, framing, or arguing about high-falutin ontological theories, is a total waste of time.  No more theorising--how about organising, starting at the neighbourhoods, and working on up?  Great God of Cheese, Harry Truman would burst a blood vessel observing conversation about "metaphors of language"!

When I lived in the States, the ONLY contact I got from the Democratic Party was fundraising letters.  The message was clear:  send us money and then go away.  We don't want you involved (my wife and I are "guardians of liberty" with the ACLU, active in the Sierra Club, etc, so naturally we got on a lot of mailing lists).

It's clear that there are plenty of Americans who want to FIGHT.  For every American who has lost his love of liberty, there are two more who want to stand up and fight.  But there's nobody to organise them, mobilise them, inspire them.  That's why I think that change will either come through the Democratic Party, or else will go around it--but it WILL come.  The Democratic "leadership" can either harness the energies of the people or watch themselves be shoved aside.

Maybe the problem isn't that the Democrats aren't communicating their message to the American people--maybe the problem is that the message is coming through loud and clear (i.e., "We don't care about you, we won't fight for you, we're more interested in protecting our privileges and power than in taking a risk to fight for the people") and the people don't like what they hear.

There are three types of people: those who see, those who see when shown, those who do not see.

by Shadowthief (Shadowthief1962@gmail.com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 11:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, framing, or arguing about high-falutin ontological theories, is a total waste of time

...said as the GOP controls the whole damn government by the effective use of "high-falutin ontological theories".

Sorry but that is just plain stupid.

Every person and every politician uses frames...some are just better than others.

Oh... here is what Truman had to say... count the frames...Address on the Occasion of the Signing of the North Atlantic Treaty

The purpose of this meeting is to take the first step toward putting into effect an international agreement to safeguard the peace
and prosperity of this community of nations.

It is altogether appropriate that nations so deeply conscious of their common interests should join in expressing their
determination to preserve their present peaceful situation and to protect it in the future.

What we are about to do here is a neighborly act. We are like a group of householders, living in the same locality, who decide to express their community of interests by entering into a formal association for their mutual self-protection.

This treaty is a simple document. The nations which sign it agree to abide by the peaceful principles of the United Nations, to maintain friendly relations and economic cooperation with one another, to consult together whenever the territory or independence of any of them is threatened, and to come to the aid of any one of them who may be attacked.

It is a simple document, but if it had existed in 1914 and in 1939, supported by the nations who are represented here today, I believe it would have prevented the acts of aggression which led to two world wars.



Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't you know you're not supposed to do that?  

You're just supposed to invoke the frame that Harry Truman was a no-nonsense hick who just gave em hell & won elections?

Facts & frames don't mix!  Emperor Booman says so!  

You've got to invoke a frame that has no relation to the facts, and do it in the name of arguing for facts, not frames!

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Framing is a pinhead elitist distraction.
Because you persist in ignoring everything involved in framing that isn't a pinhead elitist distraction.

But, as for me, I am just plum tired of tortured intellectual debates about why the party sucks when Gore got more votes and Kerry may have won the electoral college.
This sort of overlooks the chronic failure of the Dems that preceeded the 2000 election. The American people have grown mildly more progressive over the past 30 years, while the political spectrum has moved sharply to the right.  This is a problem that goes far beyond the results of the past two presidential elections.

We are fighting crooks and liars.  We are not fighting a popular ideology.

Actually, we are fighting both.  And this is what you just can't see and accept.  Conservatism is popular with people whose attitudes are much more similar to liberals than they are to the people leading the conservative movement.  This is a real problem that requires serious study and understanding.  Lakoff's work is one approach to that.  But you not only diss Lakoff.  You refuse to look at the larger problem.  You just get mad at the Dems.  You aren't looking at the root reasons why they have been acting in such a self-defeating manner.

No one likes a crook, no one likes a liar, no one is fond of a warmonger, or a war profiteer.  So, let's fucking call it like it is.
I'm all in favor of this frame.  It's quite compatible with the Right Wing Power Grab frame that I've discussed previously.

But this has always been my style, ever since impeachment.  Fight, don't talk.  Speak plainly, the facts are on your side.  Win.
But you haven't won, now have you?  

I'm all in favor of fighting fire with fire.  Plain speaking, too. And I'm a card-carrying member of the reality-based community. Facts are my friends.  None of this is the least bit in conflict with being smart about framing.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boo is wrong and the fact that he still refuses to acknowledge the basic facts is telling...

The only thing I can think of... is that he is trying to create a fissures in the case for framing... to which there aren't any.

Why anyone would want the Democrats to NOT to be proficient and have framing tools at their command when we are being bombarded by the GOP frames DAILY... is curious.


Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think, while Paul's complaint that it's information bouncing off frames is acurate too, Booman's reaction is a valid one in terms of motivation.

I feel sure that Booman wants progressives to be honest.

He wants them to be forthright.

He doens't want to win by becoming liars.

the mistakes are all on that side... thinking that framing is somthing different than that.

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 09:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think partly the problem might be more real... what seems like confusion about the theory, or even framing in action (missing facts that don't fit the frames we already have) miss a BIGGER point...

when we tell people to engage in framing, we ask them to change the way they THINK about the things they believe.

it might be easier if we really asked them to change just what they say, but we are telling them the metaphors and ideas they use to reach their conclusions are not compelling, that there are BETTER  and MORE COMPELLING ways to reach those conclusions... and they don't like that.

People like the way they are, especially once they're sure their conclusions are correct.

We are asking them to keep their conclusions and change their reasoning, and that seems dishonest to them, they believe they have reached their conclusions because of their reasonsing.

I don't have that issue myself because I accept Nietzsche contention we find our conclusions first THEN employ reason to see if we can justify them.

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 09:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lakoff as opposed to what Boo portends NEVER said that framing was the end all and be all of politics...

For some odd reason Booman is intent on distorting the reality of framing of what it is and what it isn't.

Framing has always existed read any of MLK speeches and you will see that they are loaded to the gills with powerful frames... that is the gift of a preacher whose job it is to promote values in people.

"I have a Dream"... dreams= hopes, wishes, desires, future

"I have been to the mountaintop"... clarity, perspective, range views

"Judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin"... abandon superficial notions

"The US Constitution is a Promisary Note"... it serves the people not the other way around

Booman is wrong.


Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 04:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't you get it, Parker?  You aren't allowed to use facts.

You have to rely on pure emotion and fantasy to argue against the terrible menace of pinko commie frames, controlled by the Bavarian Illuminati, the Elders of Zion and the Spiders from Mars!

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Geez.. I keep forgetting... howyabout this:

See there is this straw man and he says that frames are just lies... since I am an honest kinda gal...and I don't like to lie therefore I don't think I should use frames...

.... did I get it?

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Purrrrfect!
by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
write diaries on this... you've done some excellent posts.

people need to understand THESE are frames... was Truman LYING about being a good neighbor?  Was MLKjr lying about the mountaintop or that his idea, his goal, involved having a dream?

No, and obviously not.

I think we might get further with these examples.

Is any of that "propaganda"?  No.  It's a toolkit... these are ways to understand the sentiment being given.

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 09:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Parker, Booman's point, as I take it, is that we don't need ANY MORE THEORIES--we need ACTION.  

We know what to do--but we aren't doing it.

There are three types of people: those who see, those who see when shown, those who do not see.

by Shadowthief (Shadowthief1962@gmail.com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point

So much so, that I'm sure that Booman himself does not really believe it.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly...Boo keeps invoking a zero sun game which is completely false. This is not an either or situtuation...I think Democrats should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time...don't you?

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 03:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
theories are how you AIM actions.

ideologies are your compass for actions.

we need to make our actions more efficient.

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 09:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It Is

(1) Framing and propaganda intersect.  They are not the same.

(2) Lakoff never claimed to have invented framing.  But he is introducing and explaining it to a large group of people who have never thought about it systematically, and reflected on how it helps organize their political work, and explain some of their strengths and weaknesses.

(3) Lakoff is doing more than just talking about framing. He is also talking about root metaphors that structure our politics, liberal vs. conservative.

(4) All the things you point to as problems are real.  But so is framing.  It's not an either/or choice.  Nor is the situation you describe new.  The Democrats represented corporate interests in the past as well.  We are the only advanced industrial country to never have had a left party represented in our national legislature.  

But things have changed in US politics dramatically over the past 30 years while the political views of the American people have by and large not.  Part of the reason is that the right organized itself in a very disciplined way, and framing was a part of the story of how they did that.  Not the whole story, not by a long shot.  But a part of it.  And if framing just gave us even a little edge, it would be enough to start turning the tide back again, and then all those other factors would gain traction as well.

Sure, the Democrats aren't nearly as populist progressive as I'd like them to be.  But they still are significantly different from the Republicans. And lots of people either don't realize that, or don't realize what it means.  There's a huge gap between what they say they want, and how they vote, or how they rationalize not voting.  And framing can help us close that gap.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 11:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is an overlap.

Propaganda "works" because of congitive reality, and framing is part of a study of cognitive study.

But it's about getting better fish, the wrapping takes care of itself.

Lakoff has stated this.

There is really no better explanation why so many keep REFUSING to accept this information about the theory they are discussing than the one than Paul presents... that it is bouncing off... it just MUST be about propaganda.

It's about ideas.

Metaphor and ideas.

The relation to propaganda is slight and indirect... it's not a LIE when Republican's call it "tax relief"... that's how they REALLY feel, they cast it how they really feel.

Compare that to how Dems cast their Robert's votes... how the hell do THEY really feel?

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 09:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but we all know a lie when we hear one, and BooMan is right to point out that using framing to gloss over important details or negative tradeoffs is not the way we want to emulate Republicans.

I was initially surprised, then challenged by BooMan's strong viewpoint against framing.  I still don't agree with him overall that framing leads inevitably to soulless soundbites rather than honest communication, but the danger is certainly there and I'm glad to be reminded of it.

Mostly I appreciate mentally sparring with such a smart group of people, knowing that we're all friends and all pulling for the same goal.  Your diary is a bit confrontational, so I just wanted to reiterate how much I value those times we don't all agree.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 12:53:34 PM EST
Well, Duh! Of course we have to fight against lies.

But the biggest lie of all is to equate framing with lying.  The right has been wildly successful--far beyond the numbers of people who actually agree with it--precisely because they excel at framing.  

They excel at other things, too, that Booman doesn't object to: GOTV, phonebanking, etc. And they lie in the process of doing those things, too.  So why doesn't he rail against GOTV and phonebanking?

This diary is the answer to that question.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 12:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
called "transactional analysis" and it had some very interesting analysis about how one can slip into the various roles in life - adult, father or mother, and child roles.  I could tell when I read about it that it could be very powerful in dealing with the trigger issues we have in our lives.  It could also just facilitate the wars we have with each other.  After all, I could claim that I was in my "adult" while you were just responding as your "child"!  Same with framing.  Just because the repubs have been successful with framing doesn't mean that they have been a success.  But I agree that the dems need to realize how framing works and side step it.  Framing is obviously very powerful, but it has been used to facilitate the wars we have internally and externally.  And the danger lies in the word "integrity".  When we  incorporate integrity into our actions only then are we a success, I believe.  Because we become more real as human beings for one thing.  We can work with our allies, care about our people or we can be deceitful, heedless and greedy.  The difference is integrity, I believe.  Knowing that I cannot ask you to go against your principles but I need to be able to articulate mine in a coherent way that does not rely on shorthand code that only a few people have access to.  So the "family values" crowd with their "culture of life" do not exhibit integrity in my view.  All of their words are codes for some other value that is not stated.  And none of the "values" seem to have any real integrity and we (the dems) never call them on it.  We know the contradictions in the so-called "life culture".  There is a true cognitive dissonance if ever there was.  But we rarely say "I want a world where every child is wanted and is prepared for its coming with a quality of life that reflects love and caring!"  

Grandma Jo
by glitterscale (glitteryscale@yahoo.com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One way of coping with the gaming of T/A was the deeper development of script analysis (see Scripts People Live).  I'm not saying it was foolproof, but it did take things to a deeper level.

Likewise, framing has a deeper level, too. And this is where Lakoff's truly original work comes in, his work on cognitive metaphor (see Metaphors We Live By, and how this applies to politics (see Moral Politics).  What Lakoff is doing is bringing together very old practices (thousands of years), modestly old understanding (the last few decades) and new insights (his own, and those of collaborators) to not just elucidate messaging but to show how it impacts our own self-understanding and ability to articulate, expand and defend our own vision, policies and programs.

For example, he talks about how a more expanded notion of national security and foreign policy is needed to include concerns that matter to most Americans, but that don't fit into the conservative, narrow self-interest frame of national security.  This expanded notion includes things like human rights, fighting global poverty and disease, environmental protection, etc.  Seen from the narrow self-interest frame, all of these may be nice things, but they are all of secondary importance.  In fact, they aren't really foreign policy at all. They're therapy or charity or some such thing.  

But that's not really true.  They are all very real concerns that have impacts on everything--including the conservative self-interest core of foreign policy.  Yet, in order to see how this is true, and how you can talk coherently about them all, you need to articulate a new frame.

Interestingly enough, the new frame is not really new at all.  It simply hasn't been developed and applied in a consistent, deep and far-reaching manner.  Parker quoted Harry Truman hitting on some aspects of that frame.  And around the same time, Eleanor Roosevelt was leading the way hammering out the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was a further elaboration of that frame.  But the systemization of that frame is something that has only recently been the focus of serious scrutiny.  Unfortunately, 9/11 happened, and reactive mode took over.  But it's worth returning to again, and I think I'll try writing about it in my next diary.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is an important discussion and many of your points are good ones That's why I recommended. As a writer I spend a lot of time on finding the right words in part because I don't believe it's possible to communicate without framing on some level.

At the same time, I'm not at all thrilled with the frame you've chosen to use in the title of this diary and its argumentation. I disagree with Booman on the substance of framing, and am all for arguing the point with him, but you've gone beyond putting ideas in the mouth of someone else to putting ideas into someone else's head.

Kelly McCullough - author of WebMage, Cybermancy, and CodeSpell - ACE (Penguin)

by KMc (http://www.kellymccullough.com/mail.html) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:15:39 PM EST
I too spend time carefully selecting language in my work.  That care spills over into other writings.  It can be difficult to take a step back and see how others might view the document.  I would agree that perhaps not the best frame for this diary but it is worthwhile nonetheless.    

Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan
by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that's why I chose to recommend it. I think it's one of the better brief takes I've seen on framing in general and very much worth reading. I just can't give it the unqualified recommendation I'd like to because of the framing of the diary itself.

Kelly McCullough - author of WebMage, Cybermancy, and CodeSpell - ACE (Penguin)
by KMc (http://www.kellymccullough.com/mail.html) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you're judging my diary as if it were a standalone piece. But it's not.  

It's a response to two previous diaries by Booman in which his intransigence has become increaingly apparent.  The intransigence has been so deep that I initially desparied of writing anything that might reach him.

So then I decided to write a diary explaining why I see him as unreachable---despite the fact that, as I said, we seem to agree on virtually all the specifics.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why? Because they freeking work. We humans seem to be attracted to them like moths to flames.

Why didn't you title it, "Is Booman Unreachable about Framing?"

When you consider that title, don't you immediately react... "but people might not have responded to it as  much"?

BTW, I see that he doesn't get it right now, but -- being way into framing -- but I consider it to be just a lovable, funny quirk. I think he will some day. If not, he surely has other talents to make up for it.

I don't think that yelling at him about it will help. Just my opinion.

by LookingUp on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 03:24:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I'm not just putting ideas in Booman's head.  There have been dozens of different comments he's made that reflect the objectivist myth.  I only selected a few because I wanted a relatively brief, flowing diary on a subject that really doesn't lend itself to either brevity or flow.

What's more, Lakoff has critiqued the objectivist myth from his very first book on cognitive linguistics, Metaphors We Live By, co-authored with philosopher Mark Johnson.  And Lakoff and Johnson later wrote a whole book devoted to this subject, Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought

Now, if Booman wants to step away from that position, I'll be thrilled.  But so far, everything he's written is indicative of an unqualified embrace of it.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you on the ideas of the objectivist myth. I agree with you about framing. I even agree that Booman's position is wrong on this one. It's the certainty and putting thoughts into Booman's head that bothers me. Had you said, something along the lines of "Booman appears to have bought into the obejectivist myth," and perhaps titled it, Booman doesn't seem to get it, I'd have just hit recommend, dropped a compliment, and moved on. But I'm a shades of gray kind of guy, especially about what's going on inside of other people's heads.

Kelly McCullough - author of WebMage, Cybermancy, and CodeSpell - ACE (Penguin)
by KMc (http://www.kellymccullough.com/mail.html) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like it or not, even Booman doesn't know what Booman really thinks.  And it's not just him.  It's me, too. Even I don't know what I really think.  As we all know by now, there's this thing called the unconscious, harboring complexities we cannot possible be fully aware of--the very act of bringing some of it into awareness involves still more unconscious thought.  And so, the best that any of us can ever do is to deal with the world as we construe it.

Sometimes we construe it quite tentatively.  Which I did with Booman through the first of diaries that got this started.  He invited me to write my own diary about framing.  And then, while I was mulling over how to approach it--and had even written a possible first paragraph--he jumped in again with his own highly partisan, and deeply condenscending diary.  

I was, quite simply, reflecting on the very certainty that Booman himself expressed.  Had he presented himself in a softer manner, I would have reflected that in my take on him.  It his own very stridency that elicited such a definitive description from me.

I'm not saying any of this to try to change your mind.  I just want you to understand why I wrote it the way I did, and why I would still do the same, even though I do understand your point.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like it or not, even Booman doesn't know what Booman really thinks.  And it's not just him.  It's me, too. Even I don't know what I really think.

Um. I am so tempted to go read this to my neighbor. She would laugh for the rest of the day.

I'm with shadowthief, people (or "the average American" or "the non-voting public" or whatever you want to call the people youa re trying to reach) do not give two shits about this, ACTIONS are what they look at when making their judgements, effects on their own life is what they "feel". I swear to god (who I don't believe in), that I might even be swayed by seeing the Democrats actually DOING SOMETHING.

That, and ONLY that, will affect my "interpretive frame".

Great googely moggely, indeed. Get out of your heads, people, no one outside of your worlview is going to go there with you!

I want something else, to get me through this, semi-charmed kinda life..
Third Eye Blind

by brinnainne on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:28:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the average American" or "the non-voting public" or whatever you want to call the people youa re trying to reach) do not give two shits about this

They might not give a shit but they are definitely AFFECTED EVERY SINGLE DAY...

I had the shit scared out of me one day driving in the car with my sister...I mentioned something about Democrats and she truned to me and said "Oh there is something wrong with them, I think they are Communist or something"... I hit the fucking roof... but here is a women who really "does not give two shits about this" kind of thing, she is African American with children... GIRLS...too busy to research and read the truth...(I started to "clip" articles and send them just to my family to keep them from being ignorant)

I sputtered and asked her where in the hell she got that from and she said "Well it's all over the radio"...being a "soccer mom" she does a hell of a lot of driving.

That is why Democrats need to take framing seriously and it will be our peril if we do not.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the average American is really worried about the "objectivist myth".

Great Googley Moogley!  Ontological and epistimological arguments are completely irrelevant.

I don't think the people arguing about framing "get it"--it's completely irrelevant.  The arguments here are so abstract.

Here's a message for you:  The anti-working person bankruptcy bill passed the US House on 14 April 2005 with 229 Republican votes and 73 Democratic votes.

That's right, 73 Democrats voted FOR this "screw the working class" bankruptcy bill, which was literally written by the banking and credit card company lobbyists.  That's 36% of the Democrats in the House voting to shaft the working people of America.

Frame THAT any way you like, but the truth is that people aren't fooled--they know when politicians are on their side and when they aren't.

Or, as Molly Ivins famously wrote in response to this vote, "If Democrats aren't going to stand up for regular people, to hell with them."

Gotta love that Molly.  No fancy theories for her--and none for me, either.  

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18967

There are three types of people: those who see, those who see when shown, those who do not see.

by Shadowthief (Shadowthief1962@gmail.com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 01:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it doesn't read very critical of Booman as a person... it's dialogue.

It refers to Booman because his position is clear enough to use as a foil.  If the same diary were to not mention Booman... that would be the less honest approach I think.

Though it would still be a great diary, and I'd love to read that version as well.

I see this diary as based on a respect for Booman's honesty and ethical standards, using them to illustrate that "framing" does not, after all, contradict those high standards a bit.

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Logic is good. Rhetoric is bad.

Logic and rhetoric are not mutually exclusive. Logos is one type of rhetorical appeal. That is, if we are using "rhetoric" in its classical sense, as opposed to its colloquial usage, which I assumed we were. Sorry. Former forensicator -- couldn't let that go.

That said, even Aristotle allowed that logical appeals, while the most important element of strong rhetoric, required the addition of pathetic appeals to be effectively communicated. Human beings are emotional creatures and do not respond to pure logic.

I haven't read Lakoff, but my assumption from discussions on his "framing" approach was that his emphasis was less on what was communicated and more on how to do it effectively. Booman may be right that Dems are utilizing his ideas to repackage the same tired ideas, which is unfortunate. However, even if they begin to actually generate some new ideas, those ideas will have to be delivered with effective rhetoric, which is what I thought Lakoff was after.

"I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or prostitute." ~ Rebecca West

by Recordkeeper on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:50:41 PM EST
But, in order to stay semi-focused here, I'll just clarify that I was identifying the nature of the Platonic mindset.

Lakoff's point returns us to the pre-Socratics, who are opposed by both Plato and Aristotle.  They were far less top-down/dualistically systemic in their approach, far more attuned to the heterarchical and interpenetrative structuring of things.  The Western Tradition teaches us to think of them as sometimes brilliant, but ultimately primative precursors.  This is helped along by the fact that virtually all of their original work was lost.  But in fact we know enough of them to piece together an understanding that they had some fairly sophisticated ideas, ideas that are strickingly modern in some respects.  They embraced evolution, for example.  

But what makes them relevant to this discussion is that they ultimately led into the hated Sophists.  Socrates and Plato were Sophists, too, but they changed the frame.  "No, we're Philosohers.  Those guys over there are Sophists."  Plato in particular invented this whole system of elite knowledge, whose political function was essentially to shut down the active political process of contesting knowledge.  In essence, this was the grand precursor of Lippman-Dewey debate of the 1920s.  

The wrong side won both times.  But the battle is joined once again.  And the battle is precisely this: Is knowledge the product of human effort and struggle?  Or is it the gift of the gods?

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lakoff's point returns us to the pre-Socratics, who are opposed by both Plato and Aristotle.  They were far less top-down/dualistically systemic in their approach, far more attuned to the heterarchical and interpenetrative structuring of things.  The Western Tradition teaches us to think of them as sometimes brilliant, but ultimately primative precursors.

Examples?

"I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or prostitute." ~ Rebecca West

by Recordkeeper on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:38:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Liberal Temper In Greek Politics.

As I said, I don't want to stray too far from the already messy topic at hand.  And the book is a really great forgotten classic.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the point the Dems aren't doing ANYTHING... but keep falling for the frames the GOP sets up...

It has become pathetic...

Shall I bring out the Lucy and the Charlie Brown football picture...they fall for the GOP crap every single time...

And the sad thing is WE KNOW BEFORE HAND THAT THEY ARE DOING IT...

Let's just watch how they will frame the indictments... and watch how the Dems will kick the ball again.

Here is a perfect example of how the GOP got out of the Katrina Massacre... and now the Dems are left looking stupid on their backs looking up at the sky.

They kicked the ball that the GOP set up for them and walked away with nothing...

Do you hear a word from Harry Reid about the entire Democratic City wiped out... no.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hate to say it, but Republicans have been proven to be better rhetors, at least in terms of effectiveness. They keep their ideas simple. They stay on the offensive. They target the reptilian brain. They fail the logic test over and over, which is the best proof that humans are not terribly logical. That the facts are on our side is meaningless if we don't present the facts in a way that people can understand. It does require some awareness of cognition. We need to appreciate that human beings learn by story, not by accumulated fact. There needs to be a coherent narrative. Republicans have done this by telling a very simple story about how the world changed on 9/11 and now we must aggressively protect ourselves. As long as they stuck to that storyline, it didn't matter what they did in plain sight. People didn't see it, because none of it fit into the prevailing narrative.

"I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or prostitute." ~ Rebecca West
by Recordkeeper on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to the whole post.  Democrats in DC have been dicking aorund with Lakoff (in particular) for 3 full years. He first met with DC Dems in early 2003 on a consulting basis.  They have been failing the task of listening much less aggressive messaging FOR MANY YEARS.

I think they like soft religious anti woman chat better.  Wallis tells them they can sell themselves to evangels thru environmental issues (hmm do Dems care about them?), women will be by the roadside, screwed for dreams of Dobson Lite.  Or so it seems.  We seem to be entering Santorum-Lite (a very dark place).

Geesh.  It only took the SC 2 years to achieve a unanimous vote on Brown v BoEd.

We are so skrewed.  The party has no idea the rage of women voters... and that it will spread.

by Marisacat (Marisacat@aol.com) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 04:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since 2003 is just two years, not three. But who's counting?

Suffice it to say, things are going even more slowly than you make out, from one perspective.  Moral Politics was published way back in 1996. It wasn't exactly a secret.  I reviewed it for the Christian Science Monitor, for gosh sakes!  But, from another perspective, the long latency period is encouraging.  It means that suddenly people have started to realize that this is important.

Now, to judge framing by how and what the DC Dems do with it is a very poor yardstick.  Do we judge blogging by what the DC Dems do with it?  No, of course not.  Why should framing be any different?  Never forget, Lakoff himself has never presented framing as a magic silver bullet.  He has always stressed that it is part of the solution.  He has never claimed that it takes the place of anything else that works.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 05:13:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
''Early 2003'' spans 3 years.  We are approaching Nov 2005.  I was counting.  Or you can split a hair with a machete...

Now, to judge framing by how and what the DC Dems do with it is a very poor yardstick.

Yes that would be a fool's errand.... running after fools.

O give me a break.  ''Framing" did not begin with Lakoff.  He was not involved in "a living wage".

Democrats are lost.  They argue crap and invite consultants in. Then invite them again.  They are involved in talking, circular talking, it avoids resolution and getting on with the future.

Blogland, too much of it, excerpts MSM and falls for junk. Then spins and propagandises...  And  lately landed versions of "sages on the stage".

Democrats, DC/Establishment version, are god damned lazy.  That is the big problem.

by Marisacat (Marisacat@aol.com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 11:11:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I get that you're angry. Angry and unfocused.  Lakoff's work is about getting us focused.  It's not just about framing. It's also about his theory of cognitive metaphor, which goes to the root metaphors that are the largest frames of our political thought. It's about understanding why people can agree with us about all sorts of details, and then vote for other guys on the big picture.  

If you read my diaries here, at MyDD, My Left Wing and DKos, you will find that I write about all sorts of things. Just because I write about framing doesn't mean I stop doing other things.  The same is true of Parker, Janet Strange and others who have piped up about framing.  It's not an either/or thing.  It's a way of enhancing everything else we do.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 11:30:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
O give me a break.  ''Framing" did not begin with Lakoff.  He was not involved in "a living wage".
< /strawman>

Sigh!

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 12:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't Think of an Elephant.

Cheap, quick read. See what you think.

by LookingUp on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 03:25:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And while I appreciate being quoted, I'm a little embarrassed that it's of my impolitic snark. That's blogging life, I guess.

And, for the record, I'm an elitist snob. ;)

media girl

by media girl on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:10:07 PM EST
And lest you think I'm being condescending, over at My Left Wing, I use the tagline:
< /snark... No, wait. The snark never goes off!
Indeed, this isn't a peripheral point.  Snark isn't peripheral speech.  There is no periphery.  The center is everywhere.  If anything, snark is speech that celebrates this fact.

And, for the record, I'm an elitist snob. ;)
Aren't we all?  But some of us are staring at the gutter!
by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are all of us in the gutter.
Some of us are looking at the stars.

...and feel elitist about that, too. (Especially when we don't cite the author of the lyrics.)

media girl

by media girl on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely there's some sort of special award for that!
by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't feeling ill and achy.  I feel like I may be coming down with the flu (not the bird flu, I hope).

Anyway, I'm feeling crappy and fuzzy and not at all at my sharpest, and then I am confronted with this diary.  Oh well.  I'll do my best.

First: framing as a cognitive theory is a perfectly fine theory, it is backed up my hard scientific evidence, and I don't at all dispute the main elements of the theory.  In an earlier life I studied neurophilosophy.  

If I feel uncomfortable about utilizing the conclusions of cognitive theory it is not because I think it is wrong, nor is it because I hold some dualist view.  I love Plato's dialogues, but I hve railed against his dualism, and all dualism, for my whole intellectual life.

No.  I feel uncomfortable because it is danagerous information.  Someone equipped with a detailed knowledge of how to exploit pre-cognitive thinking is a dangerous person.  They are empowered to mislead the listener by going around their logical reasoning and convincing them on emotional grounds.  Now, Paul can raise several objections here, so I'll discuss a couple that I can anticipate.

He might object that no one ever is convinced of anything by logic alone and the emotional triggers always play a part.  That's true.  But no one studies framing to make their logical arguments better.  They study how emotional triggers can be exploited and manipulated to outweigh logical considerations.  

Paul will point out that the Republicans are already doing this, and we would be foolish not to do the same, if only for defensive purposes.  And to this, I agree.  

The FBI should study money laundering techniques so they can detect and prosecute money laundering.  But that doesn't mean they should use their knowledge to money launder themselves.

Now Paul will say that I am conflating framing with lying again.  And I will always do that, because no one uses the study of framing for any other purpose.

Even Lakoff and Felding spend much of their time detecting Republican frames to explain how they mislead the public and manipulate the debate.

So, let me try to explain the real duality here, and it isn't epistomological.

The duality is between two different strategies for convincing people.  One emphasizes playing on people's subjective fears and biases, and one focuses on the logical and practical merits of an argument.  They cannot be isolated, but one can be emphasized at the expense of the other.  And that is my objection to framing, not as a theory, but as a strategy.

If the logical exposition of an argument is popular with the public (like universal health care), one should still frame the argument to put the best face on it, and make the public like the policy on both an emotional and an intellectual level.  Counterarguments should be examined for misleading frames, and those frames should be rebutted both with effective rhetoric and with counterframes.  That is not my objection.

My objection is to thinking that we can and should emphasize frames over rhetoric as a response to the Republicans doing the same.  

There are two reasons I think this is a mistake.  First, our issues are ususally more popular on an intellectual basis.  Second, we will never win a game of who-can-win-arguments-using-framing.

Take an issue like gay marriage.  There is an issue where we do not poll well no matter how we ask the question.  We do better by emphasizing equal rights than we do by talking about gay relationships.  But we cannot win this argument by stressing one thing over another.  We have to lay the groundwork and let the culture catch up with us (which I believe is rapidly happening).

And if we were to gain power and decide to legalize gay marriage despite the polls, we would do better to just state that this is what we believe and get over it, than we would to try to utilize pre-cognitive coercion to overcome people's emotional and intellectual opposition to gay marriage.  In other words, let your frame be a projection of strength, rather than the emotional trigger of carefully crafted words.

Framing as a study, is a Machiavellian study.  It is a dangerous tool used to manipulate.  It well serves those that have no compunction about deceiving people into supporting policies they do not, in fact, intellectually support.

That is not setting up a duality, but looking at where the emphasis of persuasion lies, and also placing a higher value of reasoning that involves the conscious mind as much or more than the unconscious mind.

Now, get me a flu-pill...

by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:12:05 PM EST
Just one question...have you read "Don't think of an Elephant?"

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you shoild read it again... because you are still making up straw man arguments.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...because he never says this : "But we cannot "win this argument by stressing one thing over another".

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Take an issue like gay marriage.  There is an issue where we do not poll well no matter how we ask the question.  We do better by emphasizing equal rights than we do by talking about gay relationships.  But we cannot win this argument by stressing one thing over another.

The gay marriage issue is not just about same-sex couples. It is about which values will dominate in our society.

What's in a word? Plenty, if the word is "marriage."

Marriage is central to our culture. Marriage legally confers over 600 benefits, but that is only its material aspect. Marriage is an institution, the public expression of lifelong commitment based on love. It is the culmination of a period of seeking a mate, and, for many, the realization of a major goal, often with a build-up of dreams, dates, gossip, anxiety, engagement, shower, wedding plans, rituals, invitations, bridal gown, bridesmaids, families coming together, vows, and a honeymoon. Marriage is the beginning of family life, commonly with the expectation of children and grandchildren, family gatherings, in-laws, little league games, graduations, and all the rest.

Marriage is also understood in terms of dozens of deep and abiding metaphors: a journey through life together, a partnership, a union, a bond, a single object of complementary parts, a haven, a means for growth, a sacrament, a home. Marriage confers a social status -- a married couple with new social roles. And for a great many people, marriage legitimizes sex. In short, marriage is a big deal.

When conservatives speak of the "defense of marriage," liberals are baffled. After all, no individual's marriage is being threatened. It's just that more marriages are being allowed. But conservatives see the strict father family, and with it, their political values as under attack. They are right. This is a serious matter for their politics and moral values as a whole. Even civil unions are threatening, since they create families that cannot be traditional strict father families.

Language is important. The radical right uses "gay marriage." Polls show most Americans overwhelmingly against anti-gay discrimination, but equally against "gay marriage." One reason, I believe, is that "marriage" evokes the idea of sex and most Americans do not favor gay sex. Another is that the stereotype of marriage is heterosexual. "Gay" for the right connotes a wild, deviant, sexually irresponsible lifestyle. That's why the right prefers "gay marriage" to "same-sex marriage."

But "gay marriage" is a double-edged sword. President Bush chose not to use the words "gay marriage" in his State of the Union Address. I suspect that the omission occurred for a good reason. His position is that "marriage" is defined as between a man and a woman, and so the term "gay marriage" should be an oxymoron, as meaningless as "gay apple" or "gay telephone." The more "gay marriage" is used, the more normal the idea of same-sex marriage becomes, and the clearer it becomes that "marriage" is not defined to exclude the very possibility. This is exactly why some gay activists want to use "same-sex marriage" or even "gay marriage.

But the progressives who are not running for office can do a lot. Progressives need to reclaim the moral high ground -- of the grand American tradition of freedom, fairness, human dignity, and full equality under the law. If they are pragmatic liberals, they can talk this way about the civil unions and material benefits. If they are idealistic progressives, they can use the same language to talk about the social and cultural, as well as the material benefits of marriage. Either way, our job as ordinary citizens is to reframe the debate, in everything we say and write, in terms of our moral principles.

The rest of us have to put our ideas out there so that candidates can readily refer to them. For example, when there is a discussion in your office, church, or other group, there is a simple response to someone who says, "I don't think gays should be able to marry, do you?" The response is, "I believe in equal rights, period. I don't think the state should be in the business of telling people who they can or can't marry." The media does not have to accept the right wing's frames. What can a reporter ask besides "Do you support gay marriage?" Try this: "In San Francisco, there has been a lot discussion of the freedom to marry, as a matter of equal rights under the law. How do you feel about this?"



Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.
by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
with using freedom to marry over gay marriage.  I object to thinking that such tactics should be emphasized over the detailed explanation of the problems gay couples face, and I think that if we want to forego logic than a projection of confidence in the rightness of our position is a superior emotional trigger than the careful use of the word freedom.
by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why are you being obtuse?

I object to thinking that such tactics should be emphasized over the detailed explanation of the problems gay couples face,..

It is stated here:

For example, when there is a discussion in your office, church, or other group, there is a simple response to someone who says, "I don't think gays should be able to marry, do you?" The response is, "I believe in equal rights, period. I don't think the state should be in the business of telling people who they can or can't marry."

And when you have mere seconds to make your point to a blind deaf and dumb wingnut... that is not the time to try and explain the socio-political history of gays in the US... you need to punch back in a short POWERFUL manner.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
once again, you miss the point.  

And if you'll notice, the article you cite tries to have it both ways.  'Gay marriage' helps us and hurts us.  Maybe it does.  But then how do we know whether to use it?

My advice?  Just talk.  Don't try to outsmart people.

by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You just completly distorted the issue.

You said: "I object to thinking that such tactics should be emphasized over the detailed explanation of the problems gay couples face"

I answered:

It is stated here:

*For example, when there is a discussion in your office, church, or other group, there is a simple response to someone who says, "I don't think gays should be able to marry, do you?" The response is, "I believe in equal rights, period. I don't think the state should be in the business of telling people who they can or can't marry."

And when you have mere seconds to make your point to a blind deaf and dumb wingnut... that is not the time to try and explain the socio-political history of gays in the US... you need to punch back in a short POWERFUL manner.

Now you have come up with yet another straw man arguement completely disconnected to the issue at hand

Don't try to outsmart people.

Yea... I let just stay stupid and let the GOP bring back slavery as a "moral value"...


Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 02:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
with respect, you are not understanding my argument.

You are missing it from more than one angle.

So let me stipulate:

strategic framing works
Lakoff explains why and how it works
if you only have a moment to make a point, using emotional cues is always superior to making intellectual ones (ask John Kerry)

Those are the straw men you keep coming at me with, but I never contradicted those arguments.

by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No this is the straw man:

Don't try to outsmart people.

Which you once again equate framing with lying.

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

by Parker on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no one bothers to frame anything unless they intend to lie.  Let me try to make it clear.

Do you want to hear from your lover: "I have an STD" or "I have Herpes Complex"?

Well, you don't want to hear either.

When faced with a situation where the public doesn't like what you're selling, you resort to framing.

When they like what you are saying, you just fucking say it.  

That's the way it is.  

Then there are complicated issues.  No one wanted to confront what Katrina meant.  So, the Dems could be right, but turn people off by telling them stuff they didn't want to think about, like "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

But I submit that saying that over and over is more effective than framing it so as to offend less people.  

by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 03:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When they like what you are saying, you just fucking say it.

What if they don't hear you say it, because they have already absorbed a Republican framing of the same issue to such an extent that your plain and logical argument does not penetrate?

A crucial point in Lakoff's analysis is that once a frame has been accepted, facts contrary to that frame "bounce off."  The frame has given you an internally consistent way to think about an issue, and even if you're thinking only about a part of it, a statement that does not fit with the frame is easily discarded.  I read his Moral Politics and I believe this psychology to be valid, and one of his most solid arguments.

To the extent Republican frames are out there, I believe failing to oppose them with our own frames is unilateral disarmament.  Yes, we can make stronger, honest frames, because our side truly is correct and does not need to disguise anti-American policies as the right wing has to.  But we can't expect to do away with the soundbite.  We have to play the game.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

by ubikkibu on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 04:14:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Over in your diary you recently wrote:
I have no objection to people studying and using frames.  I object to the obsession with frames, and the idea that they offer the answer to our powerlessness.
So, you have not objection to people studying and using lying?  Is that really true?  

I doubt it.  It doesn't sound like you at all.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 04:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are stovepiping.

I am saying that framing is used to overcome a position of weakness, not strength.

Do I need to do a study of the best way to say gassing Jews is wrong?  

No, but if I want to gas Jews I better have a few workshops.

That is my point.  

by BooMan on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 04:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But consider the aspirations of those who are learning framing.  This seems to be missing from this discussion.  On the level of PR campaigns and messaging--I see what you are saying.  I disagree, but I see it.  

Up to this point, though, I don't see anything in your discussion that attempts to understand what framing means to the individual progressive citizen on the ground who reads Lakoff's book or participates in a Kos discussion or goes to a workshop.

That person and why they are drawn to framing is what this whole "trend" is all about.  Framing as a PR technique has been around forever.  MPP students at The Kennedy School take a class on it and always have.  The phenomenon--the reason we're talking about this--has to do with a spread in the idea of framing at the level of citizens.  

I don't want to repost what I've written already in this thread, but I am more and more convinced each day that, when seen from the perspective of those citizens who are so inspired by "framing," we see a very different set of purposes than what we see when we say (for example) that framing is about selling an unpopular position (e.g., "Honey, I've got the clap.  And so do you," arguably...very unpopular).

It's about aspiration.  Specifically, framing is the experience that individuals are seeking because they aspire to become a certain type of citizen, and they see the tools of Lakoff (and others) as the means to transform them into what they want to be.  It is a fundamental act of transforming the self.

And so we get ourselves all off track--we really miss the point of what is happening in our midst--in the hearts and minds of our most passionate Progressive supporters--when we reduce framing to  messaging.  It's about message on some level, of course.   I mean, I once took a Karate class and I tried to break a wooden board after a few weeks, but it wasn't about breaking boards.  It was about becoming a new kind of person.

Now...I don't want to sound hyperbolic, here, but unless Democratic leadership really grasps  how much Democratic voters want to be this new kind of citizen--well, then, we're all heading over the falls in a barrel and it's gonna be ugly.

The Republican Party has recognized that their supporters aspire to a particular kind of transformation and they have tuned into that.  We may think it's immoral what that base aspires to, but that's besides the point.  The base is (or was) working with leadership.

Meanwhile, the DNC keeps ignoring what its base aspires to be, how it seeks to use the tools at its disposal to be more engaged, more responsible, more active, more alert, more adept, and more a part of the restoration of Democracy.

That's what framing is about.

And I am not exaggerating.  You have to go to a few workshops and see that it is not really about messaging.  Everybody is talking about finding the best words and messages, sure.  That's what the exercises lead people through. But it's about aspiration.  

I don't like to be dramatic (Well, OK...I really do), BUT!  We are not serving our broader goals if we dismiss--or do not allow ourselves to see and really appreciate--the fundamental change going on in progressive voters when it comes to this phenomenon.  I believe the equivalent would be for us to be alive at the turn of the century and to look a the Suffragettes as just a distraction or to look at the changes going on today in the Mega Churches as just a bunch of people talking nonsense.  These are fundamental transformations in how people understand themselves in relation to each other, the media, politics and the nation.  We have got to see this for what it is.  Too much is riding on our leadership and our vision to let this pass by.  

by Jeffrey Feldman (editor@frameshopisopen.com) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 05:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a remarkably missionary post.

Let's just say that I haven't drank the kool-aid.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but my experience emcompasses two worlds.  One, is growing up in the insular foreign country known as Princeton, New Jersey and being raised in professors houses, thinking the world revolves around what the smart people think, do, and organize.

And the other is leaving that exotic place and spending time in the ghettoes of Los Angeles, Tampa, St. Pete, and Philadelphia working with people that have an entirely different perspective on life.

Both groups are s