Holy shit!  I'm speechless.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

all of the arguments 'for' impeachment that have been offered up, but perhaps the most compelling to me is that we need to show the world that America does NOT stand for this.

I am sick and fucking tired of travelling to other countries and having to pretend that I'm Canadian (no offense intended to Canadians...in fact, please take that as a compliment).

It's a sad commentary on how far our political integrity has fallen that the fact that Stansfield Turner was CIA Director under the Carter presidency by itself means that his statements now will find virtually no relevance in press except to the extent that the wingnuts ridicule him for all the Iranian shit that happened on his watch.

As for nobody believing Cheney, I think that's true. But I think that for many, especially Repubs that somehow still, inexplicably, like Bush, these people really don't think it's important whether Cheney is truthful or not. They see it as him having to do whatever in order to support Bush, and if that means lying, so what.  This is what I find most disturbing.

Denial is our most dangerous adversary.

The dynamic has changed drastically in just the last 24 hrs.  First, the assault on Cheney from Scrowcroft in the New Yorker, now this.

Rumors of James Baker III and his henchmen about, Bush 41's long standing ties to the CIA, Murtha on the attack, Kerry <cough> finally finding his balls, Fitzgerald turning the heat up, slowly and methodically flipping one low life after anotherwith the aid of unspecified "witnesses" voluntary  information, Woody's mea culpa, the plunging polls, Big Dog's, 41's newest, bestest friend, statements yesterday...Cheney's toast.  

Gone by Christmas...health reasons...or a massive heart attack...probably terminal.

The Bushco™ family machine is in full swing to cover it's ass and McCain's going to get his 15 minutes of fame.  Jr will do as he is told, or failure to do so will likely result in impeachment, or an invocation of Amendment 25.

Karma's a bitch, especilly when it runs over your dogma.

Great catch Boo!

Peace

the revolution will not be televised...

I was looking into Stansfield Turner and ended up following a link to the Wiki entry on MKULTRA, which began in 1953 and continued through the late 1960's. It is chilling.

Experiments included dosing CIA employees, military personnel, other government agents, prostitutes, mental patients, and members of the general public with LSD to study their reactions, usually without the subject's knowledge.

The experiments often took a sadistic turn. Gottlieb was known to torture victims by locking them in sensory deprivation chambers while dosed on LSD, or to make recordings of psychiatric patients' therapy sessions, and then play a tape loop of the patient's most self-degrading statement over and over through headphones after the patient had been restrained in a straitjacket and dosed with LSD. . . .

In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were taped for later interpretation. . . .

Another technique was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. This treatment was discarded as it often resulted in the death of the patient from physical side effects of the drug combination, making further interrogation impossible. Other experiments involved heroin, mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.

Just a reminder that America has a long and sordid history when you take a look at what has been kept secret from its citizens by its government. This all came out post-Watergate in the Church Committee hearings (at which Stansfield Turner testified). And, interestingly, the Church Committee came about as a result of an article by Seymour Hersh.

My only hope for the future at this point is that it is getting harder and harder to keep such things secret. However, that to a large extent relies on the power of the internet, and I think we are dangerously complacent in thinking that that cannot be taken away from us.

We are all different, but all in the same boat. --Alice

My first thought as Susan said ... shit. My second thought followed e ... what's going to happen? If this is it, if it's going to come down to the Bush/Cheney for torture, and they're going to veto senate rulings that attempt to stop torture, then what do the people do? Is this finally what pushes the people to say enough.

parvum opus

Bush Cheney= 100 years backward for USA

  James Baker puts the Carlyle interests first. That was part of the criticism against him acting as special envoy renegotiating the Iraq debt that his Financial Group benefits from. He's a waybacker too.

   As for Cheney, any idea if this story is actually true?

SCIENTIST'S DEATH HAUNTS FAMILY

  I get the feeling it is....

Glad to see others catching up with us. The minute Abu Gonzales was sworn in he became Pro-Torture Attorney General Gonzales. Lieberman is Protorture. I have stopped counting the proturture officals that apparently don't represent us in DC. I wish Bush would just fucking out himself (the torturous bastard) and veto the bill if it includes McCains rider. WTF is this administration doing and who, at this point, do they represent? Do the far religious right Dobsonites support Torture? Do all the Millionairs that voted for Bush support Torture? The minute the US announces it's Govt. won't sign an ammendment that says we don't or won't torture is the minute the there are no rules in War and we will be known to the world forever as America the ProTorture Country. We will become the Terrorist overnight. We know that Bushco is already doing it..this will just confirm it. This will be the birth of many generations of terrorist to come. "Do as I say...not as I do"  We   are   Fucked

The US crossed that line way before. Charlie Horman, Frank terrucci, were tortured and murdered in Chile while the CIA observed.

Sister Joan McCarthy who was trying to save a priest kidnapped and temporarily dissapeared went to the embassy and they called the cops on her. Ronni Moffitt blown to pices in DC and Daddy pardoned Bosch, while sonny si alowing Posadas to stay here for inmigration violations (both bragged of their success.
Truth be

told, every republican administration has been involved in torture and murder, and not even Americans have been spared.

Lets not forget.

I was certain impeachment was imminent when on Oct 26, an editorial with no byline graced the Washington Post:

Vice President of Torture

This is truly an extraordinary comment.  It would be extraordinary enough in any context, but Turner is discussing the Vice President of a sitting administration, not someone out of office for a few decades.

Thirty to 35 years ago, the last page opinion column in Newsweek was written by Stewart Alsop (no alternating pundits then, Alsop ran every week).  On one occasion, can't remember which, he talked about some deteriorating situation and used the word "degringolade" to describe it.  This is a French word for which there is no easy translation, IIRC Alsop described it as "a slitthery coming apart."  I suppose to get the full meaning of the term you should try to imagine a huge slag heap suddenly collapsing after many days of heavy rain; something of long-standing that seemed so solid and permanent simply disintegrating in such a way that you wondered how you could ever have failed to realize how precarious it was.

The slagheap that is the Bush Administration is now being pelted with Great Flood-like amounts of rain.  The degringolade is coming, and when it happens we may find ourselves in the situation the French found themselves in 1958, and the citizens of the USSR in the period 1989-91.  

We are seeing a rebellion by the elders of the National Security apparatus against those who are currently in control of the institutions they once led.  It would seem the groundwork is being laid for the sort of sub rosa coup d'etat we prefer to the obvious kind.  

Intelligent Design is neither.

I'm not surprised at these statements, but appalled none the less.  

A couple of days ago a dressed up VP Cheney speaking at some dinner, takes Senators to task for accusing the administration of cooking the intelligence in the lead up to the war.  The arrogance of this man and the others who surround GW, and the prez himself continue to bewilder me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if this had occurred in the 50's- the 70's, wouldn't most of this administration be in jail by now?  Instead to a large number of fellow Americans, they have achieved folk hero status.

I wish someone would tell them, this is not a video game!

We need to push for Progressive change, now more than ever.

  Don't all of these same characters share involvement in the past? I've seen some references to Woodward and Pincus looking at hard at Bush41 when he had a pattern of unexplained or poorly explained absences as head of CIA. This was about the same time that he reportedly established a "B Team" within CIA and cultivated a good relationship with Congress so he had the trust to avoid scrutiny.

This falls in line with the beginning of Bush43 oil career, Bath's financing and the oil deals in the Middle East...Harken, Arbusto,...Zapata was earlier maybe and actually 41's.

Cheney grew up in Wyoming. Didn't go to a town with more than 200.000 people till he was in his 20's.

But he know all about..."what a dangerous world this is".

He's the danger in the world.