...about Mr. Williams. I think he did the crime. But I oppose the death penalty. If we had no death penalty, we'd not be reduced to trying to save one probably guilty guy by begging clemency within a system where politics trumps all and scores of people are executed each year?
As Rose Bird discovered, Californians can get mighty upset when a barrier is put up between them and their inalienable right to indulge in state-sponsored murder. So the Guv's decision - and his decision to delay his decision until the last minute - surprises me not at all. We have an election coming up and Arnie needs no extra flak from his right flank, especially since granting clemency would gain him few if any votes from those who are most clamoring for it.

I hope to live to see the day when we Americans join the civilized world and abolish this barbarous practice.

"We're trying to give the illusion of due diligence." --Bennett Holiday to Jimmy Pope in Syriana

It seems like if those in charge of this country were serious about curtailing gang violence, the very least they could do would be to not put someone like Williams to death. I would think that any kid thinking about getting into gang violence would at least think about a message of "Don't do it" from a man who started one of the most notorious gangs in the country, then spent the latter half of his life regretting the decision and working to undo the damage he helped to cause. In other words a man who Was There and Did That, in spades.

Yes, they would do more, but at least they would do that. But maybe that's just me.

----------------------------------------------
Our Man In Redmond is now Omir the Storyteller

Once again my hope for civilized decency is smashed to smithereens.

Between torture and state sanctioned murder, I truly am ashamed of my country. When I listened to speakers as the Kyoto Conference on BBC, state that the major game plan was "to leave this American government behind,  move ahead and let US Business come smashing at the door in the not too distant future", I realized how very very low our country has sunk in world opinion.

When will Americans give up the childish idea that an "eye for an eye" is justice, rather than label it as the revenge it is in fact?

My heart breaks for the future of my grandchildren and my country.

"The most successful politician is he who says what the people are thinking the most often and in the loudest voice." Theodore Roosevelt.

is fuckin barbaric.

We are a barbaric country.

Case closed.


Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs

I think you're right that Schwarzenegger was hoping to be let off the hook by the courts.

I'll be surprised if there's any violence. My gut suspects that's mostly media sensationalism. The logic offered doesn't even make much sense. He renounced his gang affiliation years ago & active memembers are clearly those who aren't sympathetic to his message. The racial exclusions of the jury, & imflammatory racial remarks by the prosecutor have been getting scant mention in most recent medai articles, so it's possible, though unlikely, that this execution will particularly fan feelings of racial injustice.

If any one is interested, I've posted some quotes about the process of lethal execution over at SAlly Cat's Death in My County Tonight.

& yea! that Attica movie was great. I'm hoping thtat HBO (?) will re-air Redemption soon; it's worth watching.

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky

As this document makes clear, Schwarzenegger is putting Williams to death, not because of his crime, but for his beliefs.

While recounting the terrible crime, the governor ultimately decided to kill Williams for two reasons: because in the forward to his book, "Life in Prison", Williams dedicated the book to people the governor thought were not worthy of a dedication, in particular, George Jackson; and secondly, Williams is to die because he has maintained his innocence.

From the denial:

But the inclusion of George Jackson on this list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems . . .

Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise? Stanley Williams insists he is innocent, and that he will not and should not apologize or otherwise atone for the murders of the four victims in this case. Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings there can be no redemption. In this case, the one thing that would be the clearest indication of complete remorse and full redemption is the one thing Williams will not do.

So, in the end, the governor feels he must punish the unrepentant.  The governor has truly learned his lessons well from the holy roller in the White House.

--- A (former) member of the dreaded MSM, so be kind.

I too am oppossed to the death penalty. It is morally wrong. It doesn't work as a deterrent. And I am oppossed to giving the state the power of life and death. So I wanted but did not expect clemency for this man.

But on to the larger, more ignored question:

What is the purpose of the corrections system?

Is it to correct? Or to punish? Or both? Something else?

This man killed several people. He deserves to be locked away. This man is responsible, through his creation and leadership of the crips, of a great deal more violence, crime, and death... including any that may follow his execution tonight. For the safety of society he ought to be locked away.

But what is the purpose of the corrections system? Do we simply punish people that break the law? Do we lock them up and throw away the key? Do we write them off as human beings?

Or is it called a "corrections" system for a reason?

Do we attempt to rehabilitate people that have gone astray? Do we attempt to correct bad behavior? Do we attempt to change "a menace to society" into a productive "member of society?"

This man did bad. No question about it. But this man also changed his ways and did what he could to correct the wrongs he had committed.

What is the purpose of our judicial/corrections system?

I am adamently oppossed to the death penalty so I am adamently oppossed to his execution tonight.

But what if the question was his continued life in prison or potential parole? What then?

I don't know. At what point do you consider someone rehabilitated and give them a chance to rejoin society? What amount of on-going monitoring do we give them? What sort of assistance to help them become productive and safe members of society? What is it worth to us as a society to reduce recidivism? What is it worth to us as humans to save souls and lives?

The question is much larger then Stanley Tookie Williams. Our judicial/prison system is broken beyond belief and yet we do not address this deplorable situation at all in our political and social debate in America.

"Tough on crime!" That's the theme. It sounds an awful lot like "Support our troops!" to me. Great slogans that could mean an awful lot if they weren't debased into being absolutely meaningless by their misuse to stop real debate and action from occurring.

Peace,

Andrew

The 10,000 Things

I said this in the earlier thread several days ago.

If Williams' anti-gang writings and activities contributed to the saving of one more young person's life by guiding them away from gang life and the violence and premature death that is so often the result there, the commutation of his sentence would have been worth it.

As it is, whether he committed the crimes for which he was convicted or not, there's no actual benefit to society from killing him now.

As for Schwartzenegger's refusal to grant clemency, I'm astonished that anyone would be surprised by his decision.

The rate at which our society in the US has gone retrograde and is descending into barbarism is unprecedented in the entire history of the modern world, and the shame this terrible regression is adding to the country's already damaged reputation will bring terrible consequences for us all if we can't find a way to reverse the trend and get back on a path toward some measure of enlightenment.

Denial is our most dangerous adversary.

There are at last 3415 prisoners on death row:

Thanks to the death penalty, the state can continue to kill Americans for quite a long time.

--- A (former) member of the dreaded MSM, so be kind.

I love how we call it the "death penalty", like someone was bad in a hockey game.  It's not a penalty, it's state-sponsored murder.  Is Stanley Williams a murderer?  The state tells us he is.  He says he's not, and I don't know what to believe.  

Here's what I know.  Tonight Arnold becomes a murderer, Bush is already a murderer, and every judge who upholds this barbaric practice is a murderer.  Every defense attorney who sleeps through a trial is a murderer.  And all of these hypocritical people who pray in public and then cheer the "death penalty" for another human being are murderers too.  

Cloaking oneself in law doesn't change what this is, or what these people are.  They're no better than someone who shoots someone on the street, and they demean all of us and our country.

I'd rather own books that I don't read than clothes I don't wear." -- Jonathan Safran Foer

When there is an execution all the prisons are always locked down as standard procedure. San Quentin is the only prison in California where executions are performed. Based on the article and presumptions, I'll say extra prayers for my friends that are correctional officers - including at San Quentin.

There are some interesting racial biases that were in the article...a presumption that the gangs will be a problem, particularly prison gangs. There is a presumption that there will be "race" riots.

The racist overtones in the article are offensive.

What can be done?  We live in a Christian Nation after all, as FOX News etc. are so fond of reminding us.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

Everyone has their reasons: the crook who steals the wallet, the politician who gets theirs under the table, the man who shoots the gun, the executioner who pulls the switch.  Only one gets away with it, only one is cheered on.  In the end, they all have their reasons.

Headlines on the BBC home page:

Bush praises Sunni vote decision
US President Bush says he is encouraged by the decision of more Sunni Arabs to take part in elections on Thursday.

US ex-gang boss denied clemency
California's governor denies clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams, due to be executed on Tuesday

This is how the world sees America: death and lies.  


--- A (former) member of the dreaded MSM, so be kind.

Is the death penalty primarily a means of retribution for  victims' friends and families as well as punishment for the assailant? If so, then Arnold made the right decision. But if it is to be reserved only for the most dangerous repeat criminals, such as serial killers, mob hit men, and any others who would definitely kill again, then it appears as though Williams will die needlessly. He's reformed, and even productive as an author. I think he should have been spared.

In theory I support the death penalty for the extremely dangerous - to protect society from possible future violence. But I have to admit that the way it's enforced here in the U.S. is capricious and racially biased. Our politicians (and citizens) just aren't adult enough to enforce a death penalty rationally. JMO...

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$170.42; SS, ~1400 words, mostly SFW

The question is whether he killed people the regime did not wish dead.

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

I'm against the death penalty. Whether Williams has redeemed himself or not, I'm not really in a position to judge. But that's not the issue for me. What good would his death serve? None, that I can see.

I don't think the state should be in the business of execution. Too many mistakes are made, and once made, they can't be fixed.

Regarding the potential for violence, I am not worried about "racial violence" per se. I am, however, worried about the Crips, because, guess what, many of them commit violence. We have gang shootings in and near my neighborhood all the time. Why shouldn't I be worried?

I lived in LA during the 92 riots. It wasn't fun. I'm praying we don't have a repeat.

"History is ruthless, and will never flatter anybody." Zhou Enlai

If there is violence and looting in the wake of the execution, it will surely be fair to hold Schwarzenegger accountable for it.  I wonder, though, whether the citizens of California will do so.  Would either Angelides or Westly be so crass as to attempt to make an issue of any unrest in their campaigns next year?

Even though the fate of "Tookie" Williams seems to be sealed, let us all hope these fears of unrest turn out to be unfounded.

It seems that the motivating factor for death penalty supporters, and the family members of those to whom terrible things have been done, is revenge.  You hear "I want this chapter closed" or "I want justice to be done".  While this is a very human desire, it should not be the role of the government to provide closure or revenge for these families or for their constituents.  The role of the government in meting out sentencing should be driven by provision of punishment for the crime.

On another note, this human reaction to the death of a family member brings home the reasons why the families of 30,000 dead Iraqis have been radicalized against the U.S. and why we are exacerbating rather than diminishing the terrorism/insurgency/"family justice"/sectarian anger and violence.

repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.  Ignore it at your peril Arnold.

Watts

The political and racial climate is at a nadir which, IMHO, could be compared with the feelings and lack of hope that were boiling over at the time of the Watts Riots.

 The Governator "making his bones"...Blackwater Security to follow.

Peace

the revolution will not be televised...

It seems to me that there was no talk or [chatter] about rioting until the [dear leaders] started appealing for calm. It`s seemingly another incitement to violence. But then, does`nt violence beget violence?
KILL THE DEATH PENALTY

The difference between theists and atheists is that the atheists don't set the theists on fire for refusing to agree with them.

What do we expect our poor and huddled mass to do when the system fails them yet again?

The death penalty is a blight on us all.

Who on earth would want to be a governor and decide whether somone should live or die...period.

But then when there ia an element of doubt about their guilt.....

And to be governor and not be a really serious person, but a person who is doing the job for the "thrill of it all" is just sickening.

Termninator.....he's so confused about who he really is.

Apparently they are trying a few last minute appeals to the 9th circuit, but I don't think anyone is holding out much hope.

I could be wrong (I often am) but I still don't see who it is people think will be likely to 'riot' once Tookie is killed. Gang members, maybe - although they need little encouragement to violence at the best of times, it seems... but then again, the latter part of William's time seems to have been working against gang members, so maybe not them so much. Just regular kids, disappointed and angry and with excess energy? maybe. Again, though... even the end of something like a football or other sports game seems to set folks of all sorts off, so a jumping on the bandwagon thing is a real possibility. Folks who have felt the impact of the Crips and other gangs may not be so enthusiastic, however.

I would say though, that... there is that saying, "hope deferred makes the heart sick" which one should take into account. Me, I don't know of a single black person of any age (inserted here of course that I don't know all black people and speak only for myself, etc, etc) that believed that a Republican governor, with low poll ratings, no natural base, and facing an election in the next year, was going to grant clemency to a black prisoner, especially one with Tookie's history. So, little hope there in the first place.

With the Rodney King thing, that was the last straw in a long and recent line of very public straws, directly affecting the LA communities, especially in the areas of the justice system (or lack of it) and accountability. I am no longer an Angeleno so maybe there is lots of stuff I'm not taking into consideration, but just looking at it from the outside,  the threat of any wide-spread or coordinated violence just seems to me to be highly unlikely.

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Let's all riot over New Orleans instead

"Just when they think they know the Answer, I change the Question!!" -Roddy Piper