I saw that last night and thought...who's next, and who will be left?  Has he gone after the "NAACP-types" yet?

The new face of the Democratic party: white and Latino males only, spewing hatred for "special interest groups"...

What is the goal of all this "You're not a real Democrat if you vote according to your personal beliefs" crap anyway?  To ensure that the Democratic party remains irrelevant?

Heard Kos on Majority Report.  He has no judgment.  Period.  He stated that these "special interest" groups fighting and taking positions as part of the Democratic coalition results in a party that doesn't have a clearly defined position, that lacks a "good brand."  Is he fucking nuts?  Reproductive rights and gay rights are the standard bearer issues for civil and privacy rights.  The democratic party embraces these two "special interest" groups--or, more correctly, the republicans ignore them--because the democratic party is the party that wants equal protection of the laws and recognition of the right to privacy in matters that are best left to the people (like reproductive health, romantic/sexual relationships, etc.).  The hippies?  If you follow the polls, most Americans are opposed to the war in Iraq.  Are over 50% of American hippies?  Treehuggers (yep, he used that term)?  The democratic party is known for being the party that wants strong environmental protection and a sound energy policy too.  Kos doesn't get it.  The positions advocated by these "special interest" groups are the positions of the vast majority of the democratic party.  If the party isn't seen for standing for anything, it is because there is no real leadership in the party (with the exception of Howard Dean) and, sadly, a failure to rein in politicians who go off track to further their personal agendas (like re-election).  I've had enough of this framing and branding bullshit.  The democratic party's problem is not that they don't appear to stand for anything, rather it's that the republican party has controlled the tools that allow for effective "branding" (i.e., the think tanks, the main stream media).  Ask a republican what a democrat stands for and he'll know.    

By the way, someone should ask Kos what the democratic party would look like if they got rid of the treehuggers, hippies, gays and people concerned about women's reproductive health.  No doubt the remaining party members could fit comfortably into a conference room at the next DLC meeting.  

Well crap, now all those hippies and gender issue people are going to swamp the boat here. <snark>, Good thing Booman got a bigger server huh?

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

independent -- I think now is the time I start capitalizing that bad-boy....

As I "confessed" to the other day, I did not vote for Clinton either time mostly because of his CENTER-ish-ness -- the man played a good sax and he wasn't an idiot, but damn, in hindsight especially, I can clearly see that they are ALL part and parcel of the same systemic problem -- presidents change, congress goes back and forth, but the bottom-line is that our government, from top to bottom, is owned by coprorate interests and the super-rich...not only Americans, but the world elite. This administration has been in power for the past 20+ years -- basically my whole politcally congnizant lifetime.

The only way to fix this will be a clean sweep, but that will never happen, so I am left wondering what to do with myself and my votes -- I am on the brink of reclaiming my disillusioned voter status.


I want something else, to get me through this, semi-charmed kinda life..
Third Eye Blind

This exchange is priceless:

on the other hand . . .

. . . telling Republican moderates that they won't get pro-choice or pro-gay support advances the pro-choice and pro-gay agendas how?

by
helping build a broad-based progressive movement that will be friendly to those interests, not by enabling a hostile Republican governing majority.

by kos

Yeah... and I believe in Santa Claus too...

Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother let me pull the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast first the beam out of thine own eye, and then chalt thou see clearly to pull the mote that is in thy brother's eye. Luke 6:42

Does Kos mean this so-called "Progressive Movement":

• ...that is about to force the Democratic party to remove the "pro-choice" plank from the platform
  
• ...that has two senior Senators (Hilliary and Kerry) backing a fundamentalist bill with Santorum...which if passed will see rape victims running around their cities looking for a pagean phramacist to fill their prescription for the morning after pill
  
• ...that is about to vote for Roberts as Chief Justice turning back the clock of Democracy 100 years
  
• ...stands by an immoral and unjust war for profit so that they can fill their political coffers and pockets with donations from the military industrialist
  
• ... who refuses to fight for free and fair elections

I can go on and on... So Kos had better remove these motes before he goes around bashing others...

Let's beat the Republicans by by electing our own... Republicans.

One of the many reasons I love Booman so much is because of the diversity in the diaries and the civility and tolerance of other's views. SOmewhere along the line we understood that the tent is big enough for all of us. I try to read as many of the diaries I can squeeze in. Even the authors I find I do not agree with very often. I do this in order to try and see both sides of any issue. My greatest hope is that Booman Tribune will remain the open, caring place I have come to know. Thank the Universe for the community this site has become and the voice it has given us all.

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

It's all the same rant: you guys should vote against your best interests because once we are in power and have taken care of everything that really matters we'll get around to seeing if we actually care about anything that is important to you.

And the part we're not supposed to hear is what they will be saying in order get these votes that our pet issues are supposedly denying them: we are anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-social justice, etc. Once elected, we'll team up with like-minded repubs and vote for legislation that continues to deny rights to women, gay, minorities, and the poor.

If I had my life to live over, I would do it all again, but this time I would be nastier -- Jeannette Rankin

It has been since the pie wars that I've read or listened to anything Kos has to say. Haven't and won't read his opinion.

There are still some powerful voices in the diaries - including those that have gone elsewhere....like Booman and Welshman. I still read the diaries there...

Kind of like reading the New York times and skipping the paper's editorials.

against liberal boomers and their fellow travellers. 2/3 of American society and its entire power structure have been fighting this war since July 1967.

"Gentlemen, unless these things are stopped, they will take over the world."

We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

As I understand it is this:

a) With the R's in the majority, they control the Congress - they elect the Speaker, Senate majority leader. They control which bills reach the floor. They can then pass (because the have the votes) any nasty legislation they like. D's can't defeat their legislation or bring their own, better bills, to a vote, because the the D's don't control anything. Women, gays, minorities, poor people, middle class people, etc get nothing - by definition, just because the R's are in the majority. The R's will also vote to confirm judges who will make rulings that systematically erode our freedoms and rights - not a trivial issue.

b) Therefore - D's must be elected. Just because they are D's - even if they are anti-choice, silent on civil rights, anti-environment, pro-war, whatever. Because electing them will give the D's the majority.

c) When D's have the majority, they will block legislation that takes away our rights and judges that rule to support such legislation. Because even though there are some D's who are on the wrong side of this or that issue, D's as a whole are pro-choice, pro-civil rights, anti-war, etc. Once the D's have the majority, things will be a hell of a lot better for everyone than they will ever be with an R majority.

d) So endorsing any R, ever, is self-defeating for any progressive. It is suicidal for any gay, woman, African-American, etc. because it allows the R's to be in the majority and the R majority does NOT support our rights. q.e.d. any group that makes such an endorsement must be vilified and given no support.

Anyway, that's the way I understand his position.

I think he's wrong.

I agree with him that R's in the majority are an unmitigated disaster. I agree that a D majority is infinitely preferable to what we have now.

However, "infinitely preferable" is just a measure of how badly the neo-cons have screwed our country. And will continue to do so, if we opt out of the political process because we are - very rightly - disgusted by many D politicians.

I think a better political strategy is to support D's who are really and truly on our side. D's like John Conyers and Chuck Pennachio, for example. Work our butts off to make sure they have a chance to take their message to the voters.

Because most voters are just plain disgusted with the wishy-washy "electability" nonsense. Too many people are just saying "a plague on both their houses" and staying home, or voting third party. More people would show up and vote if they had candidates that stand up for all of us, who have the courage to be honest and passionate about fighting for our rights. All of our rights. Our right to a competent government who can cope with disasters - natural or otherwise. Our right not to have our kids sent off to war to die for a senseless neo-con delusion. Our right to love and make a family with whomever we choose to love. Our right to our own bodies.

NARAL and HRC send the message - support our rights and you can count on our money, our endorsements, and this will get you more money and volunteers and votes. Doesn't matter if you are an R or D - support our rights or you get nothing.

I think they are right and Markos is wrong. We must defeat the R majority, yes, but the way to do it is to get D's in the running who will stand up for us. We do this by showing that politicians who stand up for us will get support. Politicians who sell us out will not. Period.

With D's running who will fight for our rights - progressives will mobilize behind them. People will vote for them who might otherwise have stayed home. D's will win. D's will be in the majority and control the agenda. And the D's that are there will actually fight for our rights, not just be not-quite-as-bad-as-R's.

My argument with Markos is not just that his position is just wrong because it lacks principle - which it is - but it is also just plain bad political strategy for what he wants to accomplish - a D majority.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter. - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Kos is handing us a big, ole fat opportunity, if we have the gumption and energy to use it.

He isn't the only one handing us the opportunity.

The democratic party has not recognized the rights of poor people, or low-income if you prefer, for a long time now, possibly since Kennedy and Johnson.

Poor people were in the news when the superdome and convention centers were stacked with dehydrating and dying African-Americans. Now the issue has been boiled down by the media as to what FEMA did and didn't do.

The poor are still here, btw, and they still aren't getting the assistance they need. FEMA still hasn't set up a sight in Baton Rouge. Evacuees, I read, staying in Shreveport motels, haven't a clue and are being told by FEMA to apply for assistance on the internet; some don't know what the internet is.

There is a huge gap and divide in coverage of all related issues of class on the blogs and local media.
If you aren't one of them it is difficult to write about them, but it is possible.

We are wasting time trying to adhere to a two-party system. I predict social unrest as this breakdown in assistance continues, and as the economy continues its deterioration and focus on a "service" and low wage economy.

Is Daily Kos now the new lawn mower?  

He calls himself a "fighting Democrat." Does it suggest that other Democrats are not fighting? Not sure.

But here is really what's going on -
Democratic Congressional Candidate Paul Hackett Demands A Refund Of Kos Kidz' Allowance"

Kos is now sounding like Gov. Mark Warner who recently said
"America Hates Democrats."  

This is not a good way to build a majority or win. But then, when you are the largest blogger, you have the luxury to be ...
 

He seems to think that politicians and pundits are supposed to tell the voters what to think so that the "right people" get elected.

Seems to me that one excellent way to get elected is to represent the people and speak to what the people believe and think and need.

I notice that his NDN PAC has a Latino initiative. It seems identity politics have a place, if they're the right kind of identity politics.

media girl

It's about strategy. Kos' beef isn't with the issues or the people who they affect. It's with interest groups who endorse and fundraise for Republicans; a party who, clearly, is against their own interests. I'm sure Sen. Chaffee is a great guy, but his very presence, as a Republican from one of the bluest states, helps to give Republicans control of the senate. I don't think I need to go into what it means to be the majority party in congress.

Our country has been under GOP control for last 36 years or so. All but 12 of those have seen Republicans in the executive. 7 out of 9 justices on the Supreme Court were appointed by Republicans. Since at least 1980 the Democratic majority in Congress slowly waned until 1994/96 when the Republicans finally took over the legislative as well.

Despite the fact that many, many of the GOP's issues are far outside the mainstream of American public opinion, they continue to win. Republicans and their interest groups know that, in a democracy, winning is everything. They work together, in collusion, to do whatever it takes to keep their majorities.

I just don't understand how NARAL or HRC can really believe that having a Republican controlled congress is in their best interest. The Democratic party is the party with a pro-choice plank in their platform. The Democratic party is the one who sticks up for the rights of all people including those in the GLBT community. Including women's rights. Including minority rights. Including environmental rights. Including fair taxation. Including equal access to education and healthcare.

In ten or twenty years, when the fruits of the progressive blogosphere's labors come to fruition. When we can look back on a decade of Democratic controlled federal government and Republicans shifting left to try to get elected. When Americans can see the benefits of universal healthcare, legalized gay marriage, federal funding for alternative energy, a fair tax policy, etc., etc.. Then, Parker, you will owe Kos, as a small cog in this process, a small apology.

Well, firstly, Kos does not scare me.  He is an Archie Bunker .  I see him as someone who does not have the brain to see the forest for the trees, so to speak.  When I left that site, I did not let the door hit my rump when I left.  I from time to time go and read to remind me what kind of democratic party is, that I simply will not join.

I have often said that the progressives of the democratic party is a different breed altogether.  The democratic party needs to heed the progressive thoughts and the number of which they are, otherwise they will cut their nose off to spite their face.  There are way to many of the progressives out here in the land of oz that they do not see or hear from so they are ignorant of your being.  I see it as you all have to really step up to the plate and hit a home run, for them to notice you all.  I think I saw this in the veteran who ran in Ohio in their special election recently.  I think this man will not run as a democratic from the dlc or the dnc, he will run as a progressive, or at least that is how I see it.  If the democratic party can not see this, they truly need to loose.

As you know, I am an independent and I have said, I will not vote for the dlc memebers and I seriously mean this.  As I talk to others of my cloth, I hear the same thing.  So it is up to those who want to win, to do the winning. I think it will not be the dlc for the most part, it will be true Americans over all that will run and do the winning.

I have often said we need to wipe the slate clean and start all over again.  Get the old parties of both sides out of there and start anew.  

Tracy, my dear, since you are active military, this is were youare getting your anger. This is why we stay clear of the dangerous of both parties, or at least that is how I understand it.  I am for Gen. Clark; however, if he goes the dlc route, he has lost my vote.  He needs to loose the Clinton tag altogether, too. I am begining to think more of Senator Finegold (sp).  I want to see more of what he stand for on many issues.

That is just me tho.  I am one of those independents that you want in your corner.  I have said on occassion that I think I lean more left than most democrats do....:o)...

Good diary.  To hell with Kos.  He doesn't tell me who, what, when, and where.  I am an adult, contrary to his belief, and I think for myself, thank you very much!  I have found my voice, and I will not give it away for anybody for anything!

Straw that broke the camel's back, and all that.
I'm going to change my nom de blog.
No more free advertising for them when I post.

See the diary I'm posting & take the poll to help select my new pond name.  :-)

"Money ruined Democracy. Washington is lost. We only have the grassroots left." - Bill Moyers

He uses the web.

Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

but I want to say that I found the discussions on Kos' postings linked in this diary to be so thoughtful and thought-provoking as to make Kos' immature generalizations very useful. Every once in a while I follow a link here and am treated to some very thoughtful discourse on DKos. Kos is just one guy but the Kos community still has some very good writers and thinkers. I swore off Kos in pie fight days, but thinking more cooly now I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

ITMFA!

Well, by golly whiz. Another pie war. Or whatever.

Missed it entirely. Probably because I don't read much of what Kos writes, although I do skim some of the diaries, as remarked on by SallyCat and others. I think he's smart and clever and good at marketing, but I'm afraid he's started to believe his own publicity.

There's a very high level of agita over there--rant, shout, keep adrenaline levels up, all the time. Lots of macho swagger. Here, not so much. I'm more inclined to take the time to read front-page articles, because they are informative and substantive. I skim though the diaries, look at some of the recommendeds, read more of the not-yet-recommendeds. I learn a lot. BooMan and Susan have distinctive voices, but they also leave room for other voices, other ideas.

Too often, if I prepare to comment on something at dKos, I hesitate, frequently cancel the comment, because I really don't want to get dumped on by someone who hasn't bothered to read the thing carefully and is making a nasty or too-hasty and substance-free reply.

But my main question now is: Has anyone opened up the welcome wagon? Brew up a fresh pot, set out the teapot, wash some extra cups and flatware.

A politician is a man who will double cross that bridge when he comes to it. -- Oscar Levant

When Armando gets personal, people notice, and reveals a truth underneath the veneer of principled disagreement. Armando is not Kos, and to his credit has written a lot lately about the importance of women's equality and reproductive rights -- a helluva lot more than Kos -- but the tone from the front page is clear: they are the "chiefs" and we are the "indians." (Apologies to our Native American brothers and sisters, but the expression seems to capture the apparently regressive attitude coming forth, at least from my perspective.)

media girl

I read most of the stuff over there...

Here this particular thread has "debate and discussion" - over there... it's bashing and major case of Prickosaurus. Armando is seriously lacking in some basic social skills.    

Which out of all the "issues" and such - is the big turn off - the way debates are handled over there.

But it's not the "leaders or front pagers" that make DailyKos... it's the friendships and the great diarists that do. It's the people who make a community.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

FIRST they came for Donna Brazille, but I didn't mind because I was not kidoakland.

Oh wait, I did mind!

- pyrrho

I left after the whole reality-based purge of conspiracy theorists...  

Besides, it was getting to the point where posters were glad handing and high fiving each other over "victories" as far ranging as kossacks significantly improving "Countdown with Keith Olbermann" ratings to that kid not being suspended as long at that GA school (after taking a cell call from his mother in iraq at school)...  

I doubt it's not far off that they'll be claiming a big kos victory for the sun rising in the morning...  (okay maybe not that bad)  

"Did God need to create Man or did Man need to create God...? The answer is both..." Rass Kass

.
I'm not good in this sort of diary - dealing with divisiveness in the blog community.

Early November 2004 when I joined dKos, I was UID 32,000 and change.
Recently I got banned for the 2nd time, I see there are now double that number of users.

Quantity does not necessarily build a better community, I like it here at BooMan. Martin and the BooTribbers are in a process of getting people together.

In the blog community it's not about power in a style of political machine, Jimmy Hoffa, Mayor Daley or a Godfather. Let's just keep it simple, it's about ideas and arguments. People are willing to give their support because of ideas, what follows is getting influence.

I just jotted down some of your remarks ::

1. you need to silence dissent
   
2. Kos has the ear of powerful people, from media types to politicos
   
3. he alone in the blogosphere can raise serious cash for candidates
   
4. and that makes them listen to him
   
5. and to us
   
6. NOTHING matters until we are in power again

A perfect example of reasoning in a circle - what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

kossacks - community - activism - money - unity - goals -

Kos is human, makes mistakes just like us.
Powerful people do not exist, or else you'll see corruption.
You need to silence dissent? - BooMan with his own Patriots Act?
Nothing matters ... to gain power.

I don't believe we have the knowledge or competence to establish: what is dissent. On a blog you exchange views, discuss and debate issues. I prefer an atmosphere with an open minded approach, alternative thinking that permits creativity to be used to find new solutions.

By excluding dissent on your blog, you will pretty soon find out, you are just talking to yourself in a mirror. It will be very lonely, because the activists have left. I believe success in politics is accomplished by uniting people, standing up for minorities.

I certainly don't see Kos as a leader, a leader by definition has followers. I do appreciate Kos in his own right as a trailblazer, making use of the Internet to bring a community together, makes use of it as a tool to reach people and produce political cash for candidates.

▼ ▼ ▼

I'm late to the party again, I see.  I suppose that's why the punch is all gone.  At least the parking was easier.

This "we must defend the almighty KOS, no matter how flawed he is, because he gives us a voice" reasoning -- well, it perfectly explains why betrayed Republicans still stand behind Bush, doesn't it?

Seriously.  The spinning in his "defense" is so ... Republican.

I feel sorry for the folks who negotiate "shared allegiance" with dKos.  I already do that -- I vote Democrat.  I don't need to do it with a glorified social club.

Its funny, for all the cries of betrayal over there (Doesn't Armando keep a list of betrayers and enemies a mile long?), in order to be good "netroots" supporters, we're supposed to blindly follow the 'party' line as dictated by a single man in California, because only he can see a way to unite the entire country...  How does anyone keep a straight face when they think about this?

Where does Daily Kos get its power?

• Markos?  But most people make asides like "I read dKos for the diaries, not Kos's frontpaged stuff".  So if he isn't compelling to netroots denizens, why should politicians give a damn about his lousy opinions?

• Because of the 60,000+ users?  Ahem.  Discounting the stubborn types who re-register after being banned (ironic, Markos doesn't want them as users, yet they are counted multiple times...), those of us who felt unwelcome and left (been happening since the very start, not just since the pie wars... see every single "Is Armando good for dKos" diary, and the pre-pie, pie, and post-pie purges), freepers and trolls who only registered to cause trouble, and folks who found nothing of interest and never came back... is that even 15000 active readers?  Back pre-pie, I think the numbers were around 3300 posters/commenters a week.  60,000 isn't a ballpark number, its an outright exaggeration.

• Because of the page-views?  I read that the Left is sooo much powerful than the Right because the Left gets more page views, esp dKos.  Um... doesn't the page view count have an awful lot to do with the diaries? (like... 95%).  And isn't most of that people hitting refresh to see comments added to their diaries, and replies to their comments?  So pageviews are a flawed count of participation, not agreement with the site-owner

• Because of all the money that is raised for candidates?  Well, hows this sound -- you dislike Markos/Armando's bile, but read the diaries.  A diary posted by a local asks for donations for his candidate.  You donate.  Congrats!  Kos gets credit for that donation and credit translates into access/influence -- even tho it wasn't his money, his post, his nothing (he's like a Bush Pioneer!)

If you like the community of dKos, but don't agree with the ownership, ask yourself -- what does more good for your "cause" -- what best supports your beliefs?  Is giving Markos undo influence over your (alternate) party the price you have to pay to participate in net-politics?  Is that really the only/best way you can participate?  Is it Markos' right to be a political player using your name/uid/donations to push his agenda, because he opened a site and lets certain fragments of the online community continue to squat on his blog (until he finds them detrimental, and gives them the boot)?

Bleh.  More power to those folks, but I'm plenty happy blogging here at Booman Tribune.  I get most of the same information, with most of the same "big name" posters, and a hell of a lot of exclusive fantastic bloggers, and best -- a wonderful community atmosphere where community is the emphasis, not conformity.

I get all that, without compromising any of my principles, and with no undue stress, conflicts, and pointless bickering.

And here there are no self-righteous "leaders" "calling bullshit" when they can't put together a simple convincing argument of their own.

dKos's 'historic' role is drasticly overstated by its backers.  Its the equivalent of Mosaic (the pre-Netscape web browser).  It gave a taste of how things could be, but never achieved it itself.

I'm a slave to no man, Right or Left.  I reserve the right to life, liberty, and to think for myself, thankyouverymuch.


The Religious Right didn't take over the Republican party with a brilliant strategy of appeasement and selecting 'electable moderates'