Booman Tribune

Expression: 1966-1967

by susanhu
Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:02:48 PM EST

Today's BBC news reports that "[a] Sudanese man has been forced to take a goat as his 'wife', after he was caught having sex with the animal."

"The goat's owner, Mr Alifi, said he surprised the man with his goat and took him to a council of elders," the BBC continues. "They ordered the man, Mr Tombe, to pay a dowry of 15,000 Sudanese dinars ($50) to Mr Alifi.

'We have given him the goat, and as far as we know they are still together,' Mr Alifi said."

As amusing as the story is (but, for god's sake, nobody tell PETA), it illustrates the common habits of men (and no doubt women) who live in cultures, including greath swaths of the U.S., run by religious institutions that repress natural human sexuality.

Oh. That photo? it's a cropped, resized image from a collection of photographs by Larry Keenan who describes it (and the rest of the photos on the same Web page) this way:

In the hills [in the late 1960s] I was shooting a session with some medical students from Stanford and the Sexual Freedom League illustrating a Ken Kesey project. The basic premise was that the doctors spend all their time at school and in hospitals and are not exposed to the free life in the real world. Kesey felt that they were losing their sensitivity. This unknown old man walked in and sat down on the bench among some people sitting around. Suddenly they all got up, took off their clothes and danced around him. He refused to remove his clothes even when the women pulled at them. Everyone kept asking "Who is that old man?"

Somewhere in Yemen, as well as in the red states, there are many men who wish they'd been that old man on that day.

And, below, what does this have to do with anything on this blog?


.......................................

A lot of you have admonished (and in some cases outright condemned me or labeled me) because I dared to find lightness -- and light -- in a controversy.

One difference between some of you and me, it's occurred to me, is generational. A lot of you are simply too young to know the rather revolutionary times through which people like me have lived. Therefore, you don't perhaps appreciate how hard we fought for, experimented with, and sought expressive freedom. Often, just to say words that were forbidden.

I grew up in the repressed 1950s. We did NOT say the word "pregnant." (And nobody on television said it either.) I knew nothing about various sexual body parts and their functions, except when I sneaked a peek at the book on marital sex that my mother hid in the back of her bedside table drawer.

What DID I know? I knew, even when I was a tiny girl, that young women who got pregnant outside marriage were ruined forever, were a disgrace to their families and -- most frightening -- were condemned from a bright future because "no decent man" would ever marry them. (Trust me when I tell you that I spent endless childhood hours trying to figure out how a girl could avoid getting pregnant since it seemed, from my vantage, to just "happen" to some girls and that they must have done something wrong, but what I had no clue.)

You get the picture. Then I get to Stanford. By my sophomore year, I'd participated in an anti-war sit-in in the university president's office and was accustomed to walking by the "Sexual Freedom" table in the quad, which made me somewhat uncomfortable but aroused my curiosity.

I so wish I still had the button I picked up from those rather rowdy sexual freedom advocates. It said, "If it moves, fondle it."

I had a pal at Stanford who I knew already from state high school debate tournaments. He came from the state capitol city, Olympia (which boasted the greatest public high school in the state, brilliant students, and the scariest debate team to come up against). I came from a tiny farming town in Eastern Washington. Mel and I had met at a high school debate camp, and became fast friends who corresponded until we both ended up at Stanford.

Mel belonged to a fraternity that some say partly inspired the movie, "Animal House." (It fit the bill, and had been long banned by the national organization. One member went off to NYC and appeared in several of Andy Warhol's films. Surprise features at the parties included laughing gas and an unending array of drugs, which I avoided, thank goodness.) Mel invited me as his date to the Polack party. He knew I'd need help with a costume, so he came with a large bowling shirt, under which we stuffed a pillow ... he told me I was to be a pregnant Polack war bride .. and I spontaneously grabbed that sex freedom button out of a drawer and, twisting its original meaning, fastened it on my pillowy preggers tummy.

The costume was a hit. The party was riotously fun. And, because especially on a campus with a ratio of men to women of 3-1/2 to 1 and where I was told for the first time in my life that I was "beautiful," was finally "feelin' my oats" and Mel and I were mostly friends (at least that's how I saw it), I ended up going "home" with someone else.

(And, surely these days, such a party or costume would be roundly condemned by all the PC enforcers on today's college campuses, about which Bill Maher spoke so eloquently and rather sadly last night.)

Since those "heady" days, many scholars have weighed in ponderously on that sexual revolution.

But, for me personally, it was hugely liberating. I could SPEAK words I'd never spoken before. Inside, it felt shocking. It still is. Sometimes, I'm completely unnerved by the TV ads for male "enhancement" products and I've never become used to the title of Eve Ensler's play, "Vagina Monologues." Even when I saw in the local Sunday paper that the arch-right, Bush-lovin', spotted-owl-shootin' logging town of Forks -- around which so much national forest has been logged that the hills look like a nuclear bomb went off but where there's a museum to memorialize the rapacious logging -- was doing a production of "Vagina Monologues," I was shocked a bit. (But it cracks ME UP that the nearest town to Forks is Sappho.)

Hey, you never quite get over being so thoroughly repressed in the KEY developmental years, but -- boy howdy -- do I ever appreciate the chance to have unlearned so much of that tripe. So, when I'm ordered, condemned, and shunned (!) for saying what I think, and about an intellectually interesting subject that I'd rather naively thought we could discuss, it's a true blow.

We have not progressed. Nowadays, I can scarcely keep up with what's alright to discuss and what's all-of-a-sudden verboten. I'm also eternally damned because I happen to have a wildly imaginative, irreverent mind that "travels freely" in its thinking, and which finds subjects that, oh, I wish we could discuss rationally even if they're "sensitive topics."

I wish I could give you the list of topics I'd have liked to have written about recently. But even mentioning them would provide "ammo" for some.

So, these days, I tiptoe through the prissy pursed two-lips who disapprove, and who rule what's alright and what isn't. And who shun.

If time travel is ever a reality, I think I'll return to the mid-1960s. It's the only era of my life that ever made any sense because nothing was "settled," everything was an experiment ...

... and everybody but the horrified administrators was too busy exploring to stop and police each other.

Of course, the time travel would have to be precisely calibrated to circa 1965-1967. Within two to three years of my sophomore fun, it'd all become deadly serious, and the thought police were everywhere, most particularly on the far left which by then could only speak what was in Mao's little red book or in admiration of Stalin and Lenin.

As an old acquaintance wrote me recently, " I watched this same crap in the '60s and '70s when ultra-leftists started browbeating social democratic leftists for "not being 'revolutionary' enough. These people wrecked the left in this country and tainted us all for two decades with their bullshit."

Right on, bro. Power to the people. (But only if they can handle freedom. Some clearly can't. To quote the King, "They hate our freedoms." He's right. A lot of people on the left hate our freedoms too.)

THE HAPPENING
Oakland 1966

I was walking back to CCAC with some fellow art students when we came to a Goodwill box. Next to it was a bathtub. One guy took off his clothes, jumped into the tub and starts using an old brush to wash his back. As I got ready to take his picture, I noticed my other two friends kissing in the phone booth. A spontaneous street theater event right next to the busiest street in Oakland. (From Larry Keenan)



Display:
Susan, thanks for posting this.  There does seem to be less of the sense of play, of the absurd, this time around on the left.  Maybe because the economic times are less forgiving to nonconformists?  Maybe because we haven't yet figured out that we need to laugh at the emperor's new clothes in order to shame him?  Maybe I just hang out in the wrong circles?  I don't know.

BTW, I missed out on all the fun, except for observing it as a child - born in 1959.  It was very strange in college in the late 1970's.  Even then, there was already a clear difference between the people in classes ahead of me (the last of the boomers) and behind me (the first of the gen-X ers).  The latter seemed to find the former frivolous, self-indulgent, unfocused, into strange interests (e.g. dada, existentialism, Eastern thought) and generally frittering away the opportunity to get a great leg up on a career.  Perhaps the change in drug of choice from pot to alcohol was responsible?

My own younger brothers cannot understand me and my strange focus on left-wing politics, the environment, comparative religions, psychology, etc.  My parents think I own an inordinate, obscene number of records and CDs, LOL.

"Money ruined Democracy. Washington is lost. We only have the grassroots left." - Bill Moyers

by Knoxville Progressive (green_planet_2000 (at) yahoo (dot) com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:20:36 PM EST
I hardly meet anyone else any more who gets what it was like to be stuck between boomers and GenX-ers. Personally I ended up some weird amalgen of the two - intellectually a lot of boomer, emotionally a lot of X-er (parents were on the leading edge of the divorce craze, as it were...).

"History is ruthless, and will never flatter anybody." Zhou Enlai
by Other Lisa (redandexpert at that mega-ISP called yahoo.) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Posted yonder.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."
by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:35:36 PM EST
Susan, I had to think about it before daring to say this - God bless you for posting this.  

Don't you miss the yippies and their levitation of the pentagon.  And people who wrote books titled "Steal This Book."

We all think the years of our coming of age were the best.  Having graduated high school in '67 (summer of love)  I am SO glad not to be young at this time, can't figure out what freedom's just another word for now.

by Alice on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:39:40 PM EST
You have hit the nail on the head!! Us old hippies have to stick together. Abbie said, "never trust anyone over thirty", and that was true then, we had no generation to look up to. There is a choice now, but these whippersnappers, just don't understand...lol

"War drags human beings from their tasks of building and improving" ~ Scott Nearing My Blog
by meagert on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:40:52 PM EST
Do we have a generation to look down to with hope?

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."
by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The people I meet here, and across the internet, give me hope. "It just ain't weird enough for me"...lol

"War drags human beings from their tasks of building and improving" ~ Scott Nearing My Blog
by meagert on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How 'bout we have a naked blog-in tonight?

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."
by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
woohoo!

"War drags human beings from their tasks of building and improving" ~ Scott Nearing My Blog
by meagert on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:13:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We'll do it.

It'll have to be on the honor system though.  It's not like we can really make sure.

And we'll tell "biggest fish" stories .. the wildest things we've ever done.  (I've got some doozies in my closet.  Bet you do too, M!)

Meet ya 'round 5pm PT / 8pm ET.  Here.  In a new post, of course.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
or be square....

"War drags human beings from their tasks of building and improving" ~ Scott Nearing My Blog
by meagert on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
get out the web cams.  Oh well, after looking in the mirror, forget that idea.  It has been a long time since the sixties.

Just because the Clintons are showing their true "primary colors" doesn't mean we can forget the moral imperative:Impeach Bush.
by phronesis (swwiener@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 26th, 2006 at 07:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's too f--ing cold. My studio hovers around mid-sixties. Right now I'm wearing a sweater, a vest and a woolen scarf. Okay, I will remove the scarf...

To thine own self be true. W.S.
by sybil on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dashing out of the house now, there's much I want to say here. But will just mention that I see a lot of that spirit in some the Burning Man folks I've met -- politicized, alternative creative, hedonistic -- good bad 'n ugly all mixed in there as usual. But there is spirit that's oft hard to find.

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky
by Arcturus on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was too busy changing diapers etc. to become a hippie. I did listen to an underground radio station to keep in touch with the anti-war movement. I thought I was really liberal.

Much much later I moved from Montreal to Vancouver. Imagine my surprise when I was strolling along English Bay shore with my family when we came upon Wreck Beach, a nudist beach. The beach was segregated into family sections, gay section, sport section. After some bemused remarks we headed for the stairs up the cliff to University of BC. On the way to the stairs we saw signs:

"IF YOU ARE WEARING CLOTHES HERE, YOU ARE THE FREAKS."

Ironic when when a minority group discriminates against a smaller minority group; when differences are not tolerated by those who seek tolerance for being different.

---


To thine own self be true. W.S.

by sybil on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:43:19 PM EST
...I think I was a conservative in the sixties. I dressed like a hippy but was pretty up tight. Sometimes age mellows people. There is something about that time I miss very much, now the world looks so black and white....when then it was various shades of grey.
Susan, what topics are taboo here? I am curious!

The Israeli settlements doubled on Clinton's watch. But Hillary DID get her New York City senate seat. ...and now I will nuke Iran for you!
by Mattes on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:53:04 PM EST
The police here will let you know.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."
by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 01:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the diary police, the Politically correct police, the cut the enthusiasm police, etc. We need more "Lighten up, man" police, more "we're all one tribe" police, "get them, not me" police....

"War drags human beings from their tasks of building and improving" ~ Scott Nearing My Blog
by meagert on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I automatically KNOW about anyone who polices what I write are:

  •  they're all about the power-kick they get from it
  • about feeling superior to, more pious, more politically pure than me
  • and about finding subservient followers (absolutely essential to attaining power -- find the sheep, and herd them off with you)

The Yippies and the anarchists were all about nobody having a "higher power."

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:19:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and I say, Bring it on Susan.

To thine own self be true. W.S.
by sybil on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is a perfect example of what I'm talking about in my reply to you below.

"Anyone" who polices your thread?  Who is "anyone"?  You obviously have someone(s) in your mind, so why not call them out on it instead of making these blanket statements?

I expressed my disagreement with your cartoon thread, am I a member of this group you mention?  Because then I would like to offer you a reminder that I have always advocated for this site and your efforts.  I take no pleasure in having this conversation, believe me.  But if it doesn't happen, then nothing is going to change.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 06:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, do I hear ya. I get tired of the "everything is serving the Corporate Overlords so why do you even bother" tone too.

Not that I don't feel that way sometimes, but...

"History is ruthless, and will never flatter anybody." Zhou Enlai

by Other Lisa (redandexpert at that mega-ISP called yahoo.) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"we are all doomed anyway"

or

"what good is your little effort"

Still, I keep on...

To thine own self be true. W.S.

by sybil on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My mom told me to find out about sex from my friends because her mom told her about sex in such a way that it felt dirty to her!  Of course I couldn't ask my friends and I was ignorant except for my own bodily feelings.  And now when my midwife daughter tells me of some detail - like when women ovulate they excrete a kind of mucus - I really get angry cause I didn't know and excited because I've learned something new.  

Grandma Jo
by glitterscale (glitteryscale@yahoo.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:17:09 PM EST
I was a little on the young side for the events you recall Susan, graduated from high school in '72. But I felt a real angst a few years ago in my relationships the young people I work with - mostly 25-35 - and their seeming antipathy.

As I tried to understand this generational gulf, I realized that I grew up hearing things like John Kennedy saying "Ask not what your country can do for you - but what you can do for your country" and Martin Luther King, Jr. "had a dream." These young people grew up after all of our institutions had been shown to be corrupt, ie government (Nixon and Viet Nam), church (Baker, Swaggart, and now Catholic priests), and charities (United Way of America years ago and Red Cross at the beginning of the aids epidemic). They tend to not trust any large movement to be honest or ethical. And rightly so. But this leaves one feeling pretty hopeless in such a large country with so many issues requiring collective action. In this context, I learned a lot from the movie "Pump Up the Volume" staring Christian Slater - especially his radio rants. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants a better understanding of "Generation X".

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:20:02 PM EST
Some of us Gen Xers are turning 40! I oughta know - I'm one of them.

I grew up in the shadow of the 1960s & early 1970s, and often felt like I was getting the dregs, the leftovers. I remember as a teen trying to get anyone - ANYONE - interested in that b.s. draft registration law that got passed under Carter's watch and enforced during the age of Raygun. Nothing but apathy. The 1980s was all about going along to get along. And our supposed role models from the previous generation struck me as some of the worst offenders. For every Abbie Hoffman, it seemed there were a hundred Jerry Rubins. I decided, "fuck em."

I also decided "fuck apathy" although I undoubtedly am considerably less optimistic than the previous generation's radicals.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the movie tip!  Never seen it.  here's the IMDb link

it's not airing this coming week, sigh.  But i'll try to watch for it!

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of you have admonished (and in some cases outright condemned me or labeled me) because I dared to find lightness -- and light -- in a controversy.

Really?  I was under the impression that the vast majority of people here agreed with you.  And what labels are you talking about?  I thought we established this wasn't a personal attack.  Apparently not.

One difference between some of you and me, it's occurred to me, is generational. A lot of you are simply too young to know the rather revolutionary times through which people like me have lived. Therefore, you don't perhaps appreciate how hard we fought for, experimented with, and sought expressive freedom. Often, just to say words that were forbidden.

Nice.  I'm not sure if I can keep my neck in the upward position long enough to respond since that reeks so much of condescension.

You know nothing about my life.  You assume too much that because someone is younger than you, perhaps even younger than most of the members here, that we haven't had experiences or environments that allow us to see some depth in the world.

Since I need to practice "lightening up", would you do me a favor and put this image up on the front page so I can practice:

Since the image might be too small for you to see the details, I took the liberty of making it a link so you can see the larger view.

It's just a cartoon.

I'm outta here.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:38:09 PM EST
I have no idea how old you are since i've never seen you state your age or seen a photo of you.

it wasn't personal.  

It was an idea -- i'm looking for ideas / thoughts / explanations -- to explain why so many people, like you (I guess, altho i saw your diary the other day?) have left.

It's hurt the blog badly.  Take it out on me if you feel so deeply about it, but don't take it out on BooMan.

I get your reference about the cartoon.  As I explained that night, I had only looked closely at the image when it was reduced in size on another site.  (And I was unable to read all of the many diaries and all of the comments because I was in bed most of that time period with the flu.  But I did receive "highlights" and was deeply concerned.)

If you'd contacted me directly, by e-mail or by phone, there's so much we could discuss.  Directly.  You and me.... not you and other people.  (I haven't discussed you with other people because I don't know what the problem is.)   No idea at all.   Because you haven't told me.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 02:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We all have trigger points, and my intention was never to set off anyone's trigger points except insofar as the issue of free speech was involved.  It was never -- had anyone asked me -- a mocking or 'tooning of the Muslim religion, with which I have zero problems as long as they don't enforce it on me because I am a heathen.

If I had the patience, I'd go back and find various posts by you with which I did not agree or with which I may have taken offense ... but I had to decide to pick my battles / and also to be tolerant of diverging views.  What in the heck is the point of talking to each other if we all nod in unison?  So, diverging views are interesting, intellectually, and can be discussed beyond simply taking offense.

Further, my feeling of you - overall, through all of your wonderful diaries and your wonderful posts -- is that you're a heck of a person.  

In other words, I have a history of reading your writings.  That history informs me that you are a liberal, a humane person, an advocate, an activist, a very FUNNY person, a good friend to others, and that you're thoughtful.

I would have thought that I had had -- if not as overall positive an impression on you -- at least some impression that leaned to the positive.

After all, you were the one who -- in a very cute way - would e-mail me quickly and remind me when, in my absentmindedness, I'd forgotten to log out as Larry Johnson or Patrick Lang.  And I'd gasp and log out / log back in as me.

It was very sweet of you.  And good-humored too.  

It told me that we had a good relationship on some levels.  That could survive an intellectual disagreement -- or a differing way of seeing a problem.  

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry if I am unable to turn off my "trigger points", it goes with the turf of being a minority in a country that constantly berates my existence with their broken system.

This is more than an intellectual disagreement, it is fundamental.  And as long as it gets sidelined to emails, it will continue.

I made several comments on my position regarding the cartoon in the various threads.  They were never responded to directly (aside from someone taking exception to the characterization that the cartoon, not you, was racist) so why should I have to be the one to seek clarification behind closed doors when I've already done it in public?  One of my comments was in your thread, I would hope that you at least read all the responses to your stories.

The "debate" was shut down the minute you threatened to leave the site and threw up a smokescreen about bad monitors and small images.  Several times now, you have used ambiguous groups of people to be targets of what you consider the PC/diary police, or censorship advocates.  If I've taken this personally it's because you have never directly targeted this nebulous group that raises your ire.  The broad statements like "lots of people" or "conspiracy of rabble-rousers" puts everyone on notice when you leave it open-ended like that.

I'm 25 years old, so put yourself in my shoes (and tons of lurkers in my age group) when I read your words about "generational differences" and the fact that the youngins "don't get it".  Well, what makes anyone so sure that they "get it", we are constantly in a state of learning and growing.

I appreciate the thoughts you've had on my writing and personality but this has made me angry, Susan.  While I don't question your credentials on human rights and peace advocacy, I hope you take the opportunity to step outside of your shoes and see why this has pissed some of us off.

I hate this, I hate it.  I want nothing but good things for this site, but this is a continuing problem of calling out people without directly addressing them.  It's passive agressive and unproductive.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:55:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

who did not read any of my admittedly somewhat incoherent posts at the time, I will attempt to explain, as best I can, what occurred, from my point of view.

The cartoon in question was one intended to depict the Prophet Mohammed, with a bomb in his turban.

This would be like a cartoon depicting someone urinating on a Torah scroll.

It was, as someone else has pointed out, accompanied by approving text, and calls for the cartoon to be widely posted and distributed off as well as online.

Others have already covered the implications of this, both then and today.

Some of us, as has been so eloquently stated by others, are no stranger to that element of surprise, and I am proof that it is not something to which one becomes immune with the years.

As I said at the time to ManEegee, I felt like the child at the slumber party, all excited about his new friends, when one of them refers to somebody as a beaner, a kike, a nigger (sand or original recipe) a dyke or a queer or a gook.

It does not matter which term is used, nor which, if any, the child is. Once back in his own bed, he will cry into his pillow, unable to explain "what is wrong."

While I respect the right of every person to their beliefs, and the expression of them, I also respect the right of every person to express his or her opinion of views expressed by someone else, including mine, and I have noted no timidity on the part of people to take issue, or even offense, at things written by any number of people, again, including myself.

All have the right to their opinion, no matter how it makes me or anyone else feel to see such an opinion where we least expected to see it.

When several individuals expressed variously, surprise, shock, dismay, horror, sadness and anger that such a diary, text as well as image, would appear on a site that they had come to think of as a cyber home, the diarist claimed that she had not really seen the image, or read the text, had not been feeling well, and just posted it all without knowing what the image was, or what her text said.

I cannot claim to have found such remarks convincing, especially in the case of an individual who has garnered a well-deserved reputation for meticulous and thorough research, and accuracy and conscientiousness as well as conscience in her writing.

I respect the right of all to believe what they will, to express it, regardless of how it makes me or anyone else feel, no one should feel obligated to shirk their right and obligation to defend their stance, or to sink to the depths of declaring that the yellow liquid on my shoes is due to meterological precipitation.  

one man's conspiracy is another man's business plan
Blog updated as needed

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 06:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can even step inside myself, Manny.  Not ever as you, though.  Only you know that pain.  But I can in other ways ... perhaps similar?

This is more than an intellectual disagreement, it is fundamental

Yes, that is how I have felt all my life whenever I heard and saw women demeaned and when I -- myself -- was demeaned, humiliated, sexually abused, assaulted, beaten, scorned, ignored, set aside, forced to do lesser work just because I was a woman.

(It's just an example, remember, and it's a safe one because I'm wary of getting too personal here) -- Every time a friend sends a joke -- they're invariably about how dumb or bitchy or bossy women are -- my heart sinks, my sense of self-worth is minimized, and I wonder if we'll ever, ever truly let women be equal in this world.

And those times when I heard young men say -- in front of us women because they had no self-censorship about it -- say that what some other woman needed was a "good rape."  (Yes, it was said, and often, when I was younger. )

And when I went with a boyfriend to a 40-hour Psychodrama marathon at the famed, "progressive" Esalen Institute and the men told a story about one woman at an earlier marathon who the men had decided was "too uptight" so they all forcibly held her down, stripped her clothes off, and raped her.  They felt that this liberated her.

And the time that a professional engineer picked me up for a date, had champagne on ice in the back of his sportscar, then said before we went to the movie that he needed to stop at his house to pick up something, and I naively walked in with him only to see nothing but a mattress on the floor and a red light bulb swinging from the ceiling ... and I couldn't escape ...

Yeah, I think I can appreciate your pain, Manny.  Very much so.  

Was I able to fully appreciate it that day when I posted in a hurry, and was sick?  Obviously not.... it was not my best day.  And so that's one reason why I retreated, and for a lot of other reasons.  For one thing, I was intellectually unable that day to take on all the posts. ... I didn't have it within me to cope with it all.

Do I still think that, intellectually, the free speech subject should be discussed?  Yes.  But not here.  

Do I want you to stay around and remind me when i post as Larry?  Yes!  I love you!  We all love you!

(And I never meant you couldn't post your objections publicly, but that sometimes, if individuals have concerns, ity can be better to communicate on the phone or by e-mail where we can focus and not get distracted by hundreds of other posts and threads.... I can't keep up with all those long, long threads ... and i really couldn't keep up that week because of the already difficult physical and mental pain that I was in.)

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 06:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
see if I can explain to you exactly how this narrative has unfolded to my eyes.

  1. the cartoon was posted, causing valid outrage
  2. you posted your "what I am feeling" thread which was an apology served with a heaping side of guilt trip and a veiled shot at someone who still remains unnamed.  (I think catnip asked for your clarification in that thread if you would like to go back and read it).

It served to make me feel like my objections were leading you to consider leaving the site, I resented being made to feel guilty and accused of making a personal attack.  I posted a response in that thread and never got a response.  Nothing.
  1. the "small image" thing and "bad monitor" read like a bunch of excuses rather than admitting that you made a mistake.
  2. your subsequent posts, "Even We are Habituated Sheep", "New Monitor Open Thread", and the one we're currently writing in, seem like attempts to stick your thumb in the eyes of anyone who disagrees with your position.  By using broad statements of "people" and "lots of people" it does not make the point that I think you are trying to make about free speech.  If you are pissed off at certain members here, call them out directly, that way I, and others, don't have to be paranoid that we are making you feel like you have to censor yourself.

Finally, I don't know how many times I have to type this here.  I support free speech.  I do not support, however, hate speech on the front page of a liberal blog in the context that it should be spread far and wide.  For me, it is better to denounce the xenophobic and hateful sentiments ascribed to those types of images.

You took down the image, or rather, altered it.  That sent a chill through the "debate" that the detractors were trying to censor this blog or exile you out of this community.  I suggest that if you are engaging with someone on heated topics, in the future you leave out tidbits of information like fevers, emotional stress, crying sessions with your doctor, burned fingertips from cigarettes, etc.  It will only be a cause for anger from the other side of the discussion and make matters worse.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 07:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Manee, I think you have explained your side patiently and with uncommon grace.  I certainly better understand how hurtful the post and subsequent comments were for you.

"Don't waste your time on the clowns, watch the real show"
by Second Nature on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 08:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm rambling my way through this, but it's an important discussion.  I'm glad that I was able to explain my position more clearly for you and others.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz
by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 10:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey Manee, there was another caricature by an Australian, who responded to the Iranian request for drawings about the Holocaust. That was not published here in the US all. I was about to post it simply because it did not get any publicity in this country.What would have been the reaction here at BT?Would I've been treated as xenofobic?Or would this community understood that I was just simply adding one more piece of information of this controversy?

I would like to think that at least I would get the benefit of the doubt.

What abut Oui, when inadvertedly posted a quote from anti-jewish piece. Didn't he desrve the benefit of the doubt?And what about SusanHu. Doesnt she desrve the same? Look at her writings, and her past history.

All I am trying to say is that we all fuck up every now and then. But for what I've read (and I will admit I missed the caricatures, and most of the debate about it) she did and does feel terrible about it.

And it is true what you said, we don't know shit about each other, except that there is somthing that unites us, beyond race, gender, or age. And it is precisely that diversity that makes this place such an unique jewel.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 08:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you should post the diary.  Understand that my objection with the frontpage piece was the context that it was presented (calling for the turban/bomb image to be spread out to the masses).  There were alot of threads, and it affected me enough that I took the time to read everything that was attached to that discussion.  Susan has apologized for posting the image, and you're right, there is alot of emotion attached to this conversation, but there is still some 'talking-past-each-other' going on.  I am trying to stop that by engaging, and I would rather do it here than via email because I know I'm not the only one who has been disaffected by this.  

The benefit of the doubt, I can do.  I have done it over the past year, but this was enough for me to take a stand for what I felt was a bad situation handled badly.  If it's the case that I'm asking too much from Susan, then I would appreciate being told that directly from her instead of reading it as a reply to other comments.  We're all adults here.

Some will read this as an attack, that's unfortunate.  I would hope that people who consider themselves friends would be able to point out times when the other one has said or done something that hurt deeply on all sides and there would be some type of direct response to the issues raised.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 09:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Manny,
I owe you an apology as well. I don't know if you read my comments in the original diary but knowing you as I hope I do, I'm sure you probably did. My comments were short but hurtful. I realize that they were dismissive of those who were offended. There was no excuse for those remarks at all. I can't defend them. The best I can do is give you my word that I will try to be a better member here and work to change the biases that are obviously still somewhere within in me that let me make those comments.
I have been troubled for days about it now but was too lazy to address it. But tonight's post crystalyzed it better for me and I'm aware it's more than I thought it was in the initial post.

I'm sorry.

"green grass and high tides forever"

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 09:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
don't owe me an apology, but thank you for expressing yourself here.  This whole thing has been hugely complex, and all of these things needed to be said out in the open.  It is probably deeply hurtful and perhaps angering to some, (mostly myself), but if we can't communicate with one another, then how can we expect to get our message of peace and justice out to the rest of the world.

Peace and man-hugs.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 09:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're speaking for me just fine Man E. Couldn't have expressed it better myself.

Namaste my friend.
Peace

by spiderleaf (spiderleaf at gmail dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 10:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Namaste and Peace

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz
by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 10:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Manee I understand exaclty where you are coming from.
As a matter of fact, I had a huge discussion over the original caricatures with my girlfriend Diana (she is from Iran). I did defend the right of expresion of the artist. And it got me in deep shit. And if two hard headed people like us could relolve the issue without killing each other, then there is hope that you and Susan can too. :-)

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)
by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 09:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz
by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 09:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in a somewhat different context:

While a lot of my elders COPPED OUT or SOLD OUT, some of us still continue to HOLD OUT.

I don't know jack shit about Mao, but I sure learned a thing or two from Lao Tzu & Chuang Tzu. David Dellinger was one of those cats who would no doubt be villified as one of those extreme left baddies. Noam Chomsky too. Jello Biafra and Gylan Kain and Chuck D, oh my.

Never trust anyone who ever published or wrote for zines with anarchy signs on the cover. You can't shit the shitters.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:06:01 PM EST
by our own religious extremists. Here's an example: my wife asks why I don't play more rap on my weekly radio show. There's some rappers I simply would love to share with a radio audience - some cats who have a message that I think should be heard. Problem is, a lot of the underground rappers' lyrics are laden with obscenities (as an aging punker I dig what they're doing), and since Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" the fines are just too stiff for a college station. So I stick to instrumentals - I dig jazz - and hope that the song titles speak in code the word I want to get across.

Speaking of "wardrobe malfunctions" I suspect if someone tried the same type of protest today like those you depict above, they'd find some overzealous DA trying to get them prosecuted and then registered as sex offenders - right along the rapists and molesters.

Your enemy isn't the young, nor is it those "extreme leftists".

Remember it's easy to stand in solidarity with the established orthodoxy of a dominant culture. It's a lot more challenging to stand in solidarity with those who are oppressed by the dominant culture.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:25:05 PM EST
That's really too bad about your radio show, James.

Are you on-line?  It'd be fun to listen in sometime.

Yeah, although my piece above doesn't get into all of it, I paid a lot of HEAVY dues for my activism.  It's never easy.  But it's also hard to have solidarity if one happens to have an "indy" mind because the far left can be as dogmatic and severe / ostracizing as the far right.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At this point the station doesn't stream. So for the time being it's strictly old school. I have fun doing it - it's a cool hobby. Sometimes, my son accompanies me.

Who knows - maybe our culture will lighten up just enough to let me get away with dropping a few lines from Mos Def, Jurassic Five, or even some really old school shit like Gylan Kain's classic "The Blue Guerrilla."

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the case today, but the only repression I felt in college came from the left.  

I remember being told the following in an intro student sensitivity class (paraphrasing):

[Because the cafeteria self-segregated we (white people) were told] that it was rude to walk into the cafeteria and to look at the black tables, but that is was also rude to walk into the cafeteria and avoid looking at the black tables.  And they actually suggested there could be consequences for getting your cafeteria entry wrong.

Other equally nitwitted clauses were inserted in Student Handbooks throughout the early 90's.

My tables were generally intergrated but that didn't solve the problem of where to put my eyes when I walked in.

And these types of semi-regulations seeped into the classrooms, the student papers, and student organizations.  It was subtle but very much a stifling of expression.  

I think the tide has turned back a little since then.  But it was not always the Christian right that was crimping my style.  

And, ultimately, I think the backlash from political correctness run amok has far outweighed whatever it accomplished in sensitizing people.  

by BooMan on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I must've missed out on that. Did my undergrad study behind SoCal's infamous "Orange Curtain" so it was mainly right-wingers who were busy trying to shut down and shout out any speech or behavior they didn't approve of.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.
by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Back then Andrew Dice Clay was immensely popular and his whole act was one big pile of mysoginy.  I always thought people like him because they were so sick of being lectured to about PC speech.  His act was a big FUCK YOU and it was aimed at the wrong people, but it was part of larger backlash.

Back in the 60's it was different.  People were reacting against a different kind of suffocation.  They wanted to say anything, no matter how outrageous.  In the 90's people were trying to keep people from saying anything outrageous.  And it was a good segment of the intelligentsia that was behind the effort.  

It was also in that time that Ice-Tea and NWA came out and took it to the police and others.  They were allowed to say those things (as far as the left was concerned) but the opposite could not have been further from the truth.  

Looking back it was an interesting time and a sideline from the Reagan revolution's trajectory.

by BooMan on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you eat meat in those cafeterias?
Did you not recycle?

(If your answers are yes, you've crossed my personal switch-point sensitivity handbook guidelines, and you're in deep trouble.  Sigh, I already know the answers, so ... :):))

Seriously, your story is quite shocking to me!  We had none of that kind of stuff in the 60s.  Woah.  Say, did you catch Bill Maher last night?  His story about giving a talk at Smith College, and the students he talked to afterwards?


Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
with a friend and her mother. It was raining buckets, the subway was closed because 6" of rain had flooded it. We were in downtown Manhattan and although my friend knew the city well, she was at a loss to find a restaurant that would suit her mom. Finally we ducked into a cozy place and went to an empty table without looking around much. We picked up the menu and saw that all the items were southern food, greens, grits, fried chicken, fritters. Then we looked around and saw that we were the only white people in the place. Our worries that we might not be welcome were put to rest by the courtesy of the waitress and the fact that no one paid any attention to us. It was a great meal.

To thine own self be true. W.S.
by sybil on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that rather than blame the pc police when we run into these kinds of limits, we need to ask some questions and have some dialogue.

I'll relay a story from my own experience.

I was the chair of a nominating committee for the work of United Way in this community. As such, I recommended a Latino man that I admire alot to fill an opening on a committee working on diveristy issues. The head of the local Urban League criticized my recommendation asking, "Why do we always assume that it needs to be a person of color serving on these kinds of committees." I did not respond, but got angry thinking about how much criticism I would have gotten had I recommended a white person. I surrounded myself with the pity of thinking that, when it comes to these issues, you just can't "win."

Upon reflection, I am so sorry that I didn't engage in a conversation with this leader about his comment. Instead I got angry feeling stuck in my attempts to figure out what the "rules" were. This is what we so often do in this area. Instead of conversation and relationship - we want rules. And that won't cut it.

Doesn't information itself have a liberal bias? Steven Colbert

by NLinStPaul on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great post Susan.  Of course I would say that since I sprouted my sexually free wings during the same time.  Ahhhhhhhhh, the summer of love.  Woodstock, Richie Havens singing Freedom, the Beatles bringing us Hey Jude and Imagine.

And that's what we did, we dared to Imagine.

I remember not being able to say the word pregnant.  I remember the 50s perfection standards for women and the horrendous notion that women not be allowed to work outside of the home.  I also remember television shows like Lucy that forbade a man and a woman being shown occupying the same bed.  It was as if women became pregnant by osmosis.

I also remember being too shy to tell a boy I was on my period.  I remember agonizing over when to tell him.  How far could we go without disappointing him, that the 'dirty' time of the month was in the same backseat as us.  Now I wear the tshirt that proudly came out of the Vagina Monlogues that says Vagina Warrior. I also performed in the Vagina Monlogues at the university near me.  We've come a long way baby.  

I was raised by a controlling father and had been married and divorced twice before I was legally of age, I couldn't drink or vote but I could be forced into motherhood which came at the bonus price of being wed.  

All of that changed during the sixties.  It was as if I had never known freedom before.  I stepped out of the bondage I'd been in my entire life into the arms of Feminism, protesting the war in Vietnam, very much a part of the era of dissent with the civil rights movement, watching with awe the likes of Mario Salvo, the Black Panthers, Angela Davis, Eldridge Cleaver, and the Attica Prison riots.

I found my voice in those years, a voice I never knew was there.  That voice became the voice that would fight sexual harassment and discrimination instead of just going along because that's what women had always done until then.  The voice that screamed out against a government that condoned the shooting of college students at Kent State.  The same voice that cheered and danced in the streets when Roe v. Wade was finally made the law of the land.  The same voice that screamed in agony when women were told we would not be equals in our Constitution.

It all began in the mid sixties.  It began then and has only gotten stronger, this voice of mine, because with age I've gained something else of equal importance, I no longer care what anyone else thinks.  As Eugene told me last night, I kick 31 flavors of ass. I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

What women want is what men want. They want respect. Marilyn Vos Savant

by caliberal on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 03:31:44 PM EST
OK-- I don't know and don't really care how many of the readers can say that they are over 65 but this old fart will come right out and say it 68 and fading!-- Sue- Ya really did it! Thru the tears I finished the post and lady- oh how beautiful! How Beautiful!
 Not only was it a time but also a dream and this is what has to be recaptured.
  If it isn't recaptured, this country is doomed!
by billjpa (billjpa@aol.com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:19:10 PM EST
Yes, oh yes.  Here's a tissue for you... it was in so many ways a bright shining time ... where it seemed like we were heading somewhere wonderful.

Who knows how many times I've wished for the 60s to come again.  God knows we need it.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 08:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even have the words. I've been trying to formulate a comment, or at least attempt to present an alternate view, but I'm afraid it may be beyond my capabilities. Still, I can try.

Type and delete, type and delete... this is not working well.

See? You're not the only one who doesn't post everything they think, as they think it, although my self censorship is usually not due to any fear of nebulous "pc police", but to common courtesy. As a non white person who visits (mostly) white liberal blogs, there are many times when I bite my fingers to keep from responding to some of what I consider the most amazingly ignorant, inane blather when it comes to discussing topics that many are patently unfamiliar with except in the "I'm a Liberal and I care because I should " type of way.

Why do I then not jump in and start slashing away, right and left, instead of going off somewhere to figuratively bang my head against a wall? Because, for one thing I recognize that, for the most part, the posters/commenters have good hearts, that are at least tilted towards the right place, and that they mean no harm. Usually. Also, after so many years, one just gets tired of all of it.

Sometimes you have to speak up tho, as in the case with the 'bomb in a turban' posting.

I know that when your frame of reference for something like this is the ability to say vagina or pregnant, or dance naked or free love and expression or blonde jokes... that it is almost an impossibility to imagine what that post meant to others. I don't know how to connect with such a disconnect, I'm afraid... but maybe if you try and take yourself out of yourself for a minute... and put yourself in the position of a target, there can be progress.

Not a target of blonde jokes, or a target of 'pc police' that want to suppress your 'free speech'... but a target of ropes and guns and lynch mobs and posses and rocks and dogs and a larger community pulling their skirts back and closing their doors to shut out the screams of a smaller, villified community, secure in their self righteousness and their contempt for those who are at the bottom of the heap.

From having trouble starting I've moved on to typing too much, but let me just say that much of the adverse reaction to that particular post came from those not seeking to repress 'free speech'., It came from those who looked at that poster (bomb or no bomb) combined with the text calling for putting it on telephone poles and and pasting it everywhere in a sort of "we'll show them" type of attitude and who immediately heard the echoes of other times such excercises of 'free speech' have been carried out. Whether it was against the Jews, Blacks, Mexicans, Japanese, Arabs/Muslims, Native Americans or whoever... the connection was immediate, as well as the opposition to anything like that appearing here especially. The post did not call for discussion and opening of debate of the larger controversy (which would have been welcome, as far as I am concerned) so much as it was a call for target practice.

The fact that there is still no clear understanding of how offensive that post was to some (mostly of the "others" faction, but not all), and that the sense of betrayal felt by some in this community is put to down to being prudish pc police who are just trying to stop people from expressing themselves and having their 'fun', and whose concerns are being compared first to blonde jokes, and now to naked dancing and free love is just disturbing.

Human rights, politics, social issues and food!
Human Beams Magazine

by Nanette (nanette at humanbeams dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:34:37 PM EST
One of the defining moments of my youth was nearly being attacked by a bunch of goons driving a Chevy Blazer because I apparently looked like a "fag." That got me - once I was able to catch my breath - to start thinking a lot about what it's like to be a target of ropes, guns, and the occasional SUV. Whether the issue is gay bashing or a cartoon villifying members of a particular ethnic and religious minority, it's a damned good idea to try to put oneself into the shoes of "the other."

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.
by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 04:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

It is easy to think that because we are "liberal" or "progressive" that we automatically put ourselves in shoes of "the other", that we automatically understand what the other is thinking.  We assume that our liberal tolerance and good wishes just make us better able to do that. And its simply not true.  It takes an effort; it takes constant reminders to ourselves.

The cartoon fight on this site will never be over until/unless there begins to be some understanding of EXACTLY WHAT was offensive about that posting and WHY it was offensive.  And it does no good to focus on the WHY until we get down to EXACTLY WHAT was offensive.  It's a shame that many of the people who were offended have left and aren't here to explain EXACTLY WHAT offended.  But I think Nanette's post tries to do that.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
o are just trying to stop people from expressing themselves and having their 'fun', and whose concerns are being compared first to blonde jokes, and now to naked dancing and free love is just disturbing.

actually, I think I said that my point in that post a cuople weeks back was my deep belief in free speech.  I'm an ACLU extremist ... if Neo Nazis want to march peacefully, i can't see stopping them.

If you find my other examples poor, I apologize ... I was just grasping for some examples of things that recently bugged me and so were fresh in my mind ... and I could point out far more ugly situations with which I've had to deal ...

let's see:  If I told you that I was molested by a state senator when i was a page in the state legislature, would that be a more appropriate example?  That it made me feel powerless, silent, weak because I was a young woman and I'd been taught that young women could NEVER speak up about such things?  And no one had ever told me that i COULD speak up about such things?

and i have far worse examples ... and if those don't suffice, I can find still better ones, I hope. ...

but, to get back to YOUR post above, may I say that I completely respect and treasure how you have expressed your disagreement with me?  Because you said so intelligently, thoughtfully, and kindly?  That you acknowledge that most of the people here are -- and I think yuou're right -- good-hearted.

Then there are the problems of how to express one's thoughts in a flat medium where the way one receives can be altered by the other person's world view, particular mood, bad day, or earlier discussions.

I can tell from your lists of my excuses that all this was discussed in great depth somewhere.  I don't know where.  

No one wrote to me about their problems with what I wrote.  I received many letters of support.  

But none with personal objections that we could hash out one on one.  

Yet, some people now refuse to answer my e-mails.  And I have no clue why.

I also had to be very self-protective at the time because, besides having the flu and a fever -- and not thinking very well (obviously) -- I was also having terrible reactions to medication, and had lots of other family stresses.  I had to be careful which diaries I opened because I could not invite much more stress into my life at the time.  So, if it appears I was nonresponsive, or flippant about it, I wasn't.  I just had too much on my plate.

And that's where the history that we have with each other becomes important.

You've read my writings and comments before.  You know the kinds of causes which are important to me... as I know which are key to you.

Yet, all of that history suddenly became meaningless.  It bore no weight in assessing me. That was truly shocking and disheartening.  

Not to mention that i removed the offending portion of the image so that the story became a focus on free speech.

Sometimes, my more virulent accusers have posted some pretty angry, strange stuff here -- sometimes even some really crazy, scary stuff -- and it's always been a call to tolerate, to ignore, to take into account the whole of the person and that person's history.

Manny took personally my comment about younger generations today.  I wasn't thinking of him at all when I wrote that.  Yet he assumed I did.  How can i logically interpret such postings?  And why doesn't he remember how much I've cared about issues and fights dear to him?  The woman in Yemen?  Gitmo?  Bucca?  Baghram?  And on and on?  It's Alice-in-Wonderland-ish, and I feel like a book missing the first ten chapters.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Susan

It would be really helpful if you could write, in ONE sentence, EXACTLY what it was in that original post that you think Nanette and Manny  and the others are offended by.  Not why they are offended -- but what it was in that post that they were responding to (in your opinion).

I get the feeling that everyone is talking past each other instead of to each other.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes conversations remind me of those... you shake things up and see one thing... show it to another person and they see something completely different. I guess the only option is to keep shaking ;).

I can tell from your lists of my excuses that all this was discussed in great depth somewhere.  I don't know where.

Might as well get this out of the way right away... no, the vast majority of the conversation has gone on on this blog, in the various diaries and comments. Probably some have conversed in emails, I don't know... but mostly everything has been conducted right here, in the open, in hopes of at least coming to a greater understanding, if not an agreement. When the likelihood of that happened seemed ever more remote, people just moved on to other conversations (some, in other places).

actually, I think I said that my point in that post a cuople weeks back was my deep belief in free speech.  I'm an ACLU extremist ... if Neo Nazis want to march peacefully, i can't see stopping them.

I too... and with more at stake, support Neo Nazis and Klan marches and so on. I also support counter protests, with decidedly more enthusiasm. But to move further in this conversation I must make one, simple point...

The main sticking point in all this has nothing to do with free speech. Try this kaleidoscope picture: :)

When I was about 9, I attended a private school in North Hollywood, called Summerhill. The concept of it was no rules - no punishments for not attending class or for anything at all you did... just understanding, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, acceptance of differences, experimentation, and whatever else. We lived the life without boundaries that many adults were seeking. We were actually the first students in this school (about 10 of us from me at 9 to a 13 year old...  after our year they decided to start with kindergardners ;).

If we wanted to try drugs, the teachers either got them for us, or looked the other way when someone else brought them in. If we caught some of the teachers running around naked or having sex in the pool, well hey, it was all a learning experience. Grow with it.

I loved the place, of course, although even at the time it reminded me of that book "Bless the Beasts and the Children". (I was a big reader).

If I recall, all the rest of the kids were white (I had little concept of color at that time, because of my upbringing, but looking back I'm fairly sure). However, I am sure that when we all went to one of their apartments for a birthday party or something, I was the only non white kid present. That I will never forget because of what happened.

We had the party and then all went out to the pool, and were playing and splashing around and doing what kids do, when all of a sudden the apartment manager came barrelling out of their apartment, screaming at me to get OUT OF THE POOL! GET OUT OF THE POOL!

Of course I did... we all did, and went running back to my friends apartment. Some of the older kids stayed back to find out what was wrong... and what was wrong was me. I absolutely could not be in that pool, or else the other tenants would demand that it be drained and refilled. He thought he caught it in time to avoid that, as long as I stayed far away.

My friends were horrified, and ashamed... but they also wanted to have fun. After all, it was a party. I still remember sitting there on that couch, looking at them surrounding me with sympathetic expressions, telling me that they were sorry, but of course I must understand that ... it's hot outside, and there is a pool there, and that it's okay for them to go in... and that one of them would keep coming back to keep me company for a few minutes. Why, they would sacrifice their fun and take turns, even!

I learned a very valuable, never forgotten lesson that day. For all our liberalism, and all our free expression, and all the lack of boundaries, one thing we didn't learn was that one of the most important things that makes it all work is standing up for one another.

They were kids. We are not. What happened with that posting of the bomb in the turban thing is that not only were people falling into the right wing frame of the entire situation, and not only was that what I would consider a racist post, but even when it was realized the deep, deep hurt, sense of betrayal and offense that it caused DuctapeFatwa, Man Eegee and others, that people forgot the most important part - standing up for one another.

To me, that was the most obscene offense.

Human rights, politics, social issues and food!
Human Beams Magazine

by Nanette (nanette at humanbeams dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 06:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nanette, that's an excruciating story ... god, how that must have been painful, and you surely didn't even want to be the center of their sympathy.  Oh dear.  

(And what a fascinating childhood -- i've read about Summerhill, although it was a long time ago -- what a life you've had!  GOOD too!)

The main sticking point in all this has nothing to do with free speech.

Well, for me it did, see.  Because that is something that means a lot to me.  

And I certainly see -- now more than ever -- that that is not how others here saw it at all.  But I didn't know that when in my dopey, sick state I saw Dan Savage's post, and threw it up just to get something up, and flopped in bed again ... and then I got all defensive and self-protective, which was not the best either but that's all I was capable of at the time.... and so it goes.  But i'll never grasp why it was the end-all be-all of all that I am to those here and that there were not intervening historical experiences and factors.... and so it goes.  And I will never understand why it'd be alright to mock the Pope and the Catholic church or the Mormons, but not okay to ever mock another more sensitive faith.  Every religion is precious to each of its groups of practitioners.... why I could post a cartoon of the Pope but not of another religion is still something I can't grasp.

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 08:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In answer to most of your reply.... what poco said in his/her reply... big time.

But i'll never grasp why it was the end-all be-all of all that I am to those here and that there were not intervening historical experiences and factors.... and so it goes.

There is a change that happens, and it's pretty much irrevocable. I am not sure how to explain this so that it's easily understood. I suppose I can sort of go back to the above example. The Summerhill I went to was based on the original in England, but I am pretty sure that the people here were just playing it by ear, and hadn't a real clue what they were doing (and I'm pretty sure our parents had no idea what it was really like... I know my mom thought it was a nice farm atmosphere, where we'd learn about animals and things, as well as attend a Free School).  

As for us kids, I bet every one of us remembers that year out of our lives, because we were sort of tossed into a petri dish, stirred around and then left on our own to either turn into mold, blow up or maybe save humanity... no one knew. (I don't believe this is a good way to raise children, by the way). Some of us became very close, and very dependent on each other (I can't remember one actual fight) and because we were there all of the day and sometimes into the night (can't remember why that was) we came to feel that we were all each other had. The adults were useless (and we were quite free to tell them so), so we took care of ourselves as best we could, trusting in each other.  

This is one reason why the pool incident came as such a shock to me, and you can imagine that, while we all returned to the school and things may have been almost the same on the surface.. they were never really ever quite the same. No matter what all had gone on before, that element of trust, of belief that we would all stand together and stand up for one another was gone, and couldn't be brought back.

That's the same as what happened here... I realize you were ill for most of what went on, but I'm afraid that doesn't lessen the shock and hurt that was felt when people realized that others were not going to stand up for them, and would instead stand on the other side of them. It's like all the causes of strangers you've stood for before mean nothing if you cannot stand up for those closest to you, or even recognize that they might be imperiled by your actions.

The free speech part of it doesn't do much for me... I suppose I am just way too much of a politically correct  lefty socialist whatever to think that free speech has anything to do with siding with the powerful against the oppressed.

As for the Pope thing, many left leaning sites underwent great upheavals when the last Pope died, and many were offended at all the posts about the evilness of the Catholic church and the Pope and whatever else (I didn't follow it all). Even here, when Pastor Dan was posting, people were asked (or required) to avoid his diaries if they just wanted to debate the religion or whatever it was. I didn't pay much attention to that either, because it's no hardship for me to accomodate my friends in matters that are important to them, even if they are not important to me. Or something like that.

Human rights, politics, social issues and food!
Human Beams Magazine

by Nanette (nanette at humanbeams dot com) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 10:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it will NOT be okay to post cartoons of the Pope WHEN there is open season on all Catholics--when the Abu Ghraibs and Guantanamos are filled with Catholics, and we are bombing Italy day and night--when that time occurs, posting cartoons of the Pope will be extremely hurtful and will contribute to hate speech,
and all of us who otherwise support free speech, will find that posting unacceptable.
by poco on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 08:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sad.  That is what it is so...so

Some of my favorite people have left this site and have given up trying to explain their reasons why.  I do not pretend to understand the nuances of racism or even of free speech, but I believe that if someone feels that you have wronged them, then you probably have and you ought to apologize.

I am sad because what used to feel very much like a community no longer does.

"Don't waste your time on the clowns, watch the real show"

by Second Nature on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Susan feels that she did apologize. Unfortunately, the people who were offended do not feel that she apologized for what it was that offended them.

So if Susan did X and Y and thinks that it was X that offended the others but it was, in fact, Y that offended them -- her apology for X doesn't get the two groups together.

That's why I think its important for Susan to say (briefly) what it was that SHE thinks they were offended by and let someone (Nanette?) say whether or not she is right.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did apologize that night.  And changed the image.  And I apologize again.

But no one has written to me and told me that they're upset, and why they are upset, or tried to communicate this or share their feelings with me.

They just won't communicate with me, and don't come here anymore.

(And i can't emphasize enough the section of my reply to Nanette's wonderful, perceptive, thoughtful post here that it was a very bad time for me.  And I will not go into WHY it was such a horrible time because I don't feel safe to do so.  BooMan and my daughter know.  That'll have to do for now.  But, because I had so much anxiety already, was crying a lot, and was sick as a dog and got up out of bed to throw up a fast post to give BooMan some relief, and ended up causing a huge firestorm without a clue in my impaired physical and mental state that I was doing so -- ALL I was capable of (and I was NOT capable of more) was a couple attempts at explanation, and then I had to go into full retreat. I just retreated  to deal with my other tensions and frightening stresses in my life.  But here's where the history could have kicked in ... I retreat, and give obviously poor examples, but none of my history here mattered at all.  It was over.  They were gone. Without a word to me.  Or a reply to my inquiries personally to them.)

Hickok: "You know the sound of thunder. Can you imagine that sound if I ask you to? Ma'am, listen to the thunder."

by susanhu (susanhuatearthlinkdotnet) on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 05:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Susan what are you apologizing FOR?  What is it that you think you did?  What is it that you think Manny thinks that you did?

We all understand that you were having a difficult time and we sympathize.  But if you truly want to heal this breach you would be well served to stop focusing on yourself and start focusing on what you think Manny is angry about.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Sat Feb 25th, 2006 at 06:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mary, thank you for asking me to do this.

I see its importance and its deep value.

It was very helpful of you to push this because, at first, I wasn't quite sure about it... but now I think you had a very good idea, and it felt good to express my apologies and my recognitions of o