Booman Tribune ~ A Progressive Community

Rhetoric of Hate

by SallyCat
Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:38:05 AM EST

Sweeping generalizations by an individual, in a blog diary, in the media, or by a government are ALWAYS wrong. There are so many times that a few people have spouted hateful comments and generalizations about the United States, about Republicans, about Democrats, about Arabs and Muslims, about Christians, about anything 'they' don't like. What happens is always predictable - attack and counter-attack.

During the past 2 months I have watched this blog from the sidelines and participated in the 'big' blog. The attacks are by a few...and participated in by the many. So - it looks like those that spew the rhetoric of hate are sowing the seeds of discontent and distrust that keeps them in power. Or maybe it just salves their egos to be one that has the power to disrupt.

All major theologies teach lessons of tolerance and patience and peace. Generically here I will include Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Shinto...and so many others. I believe, and this is a big jump for some, that almost all of us want peace and are basically compassionate caring people.

So what happens?

Many of us have been fighting for decades for peace. We have worked for the good of humankind - around the world - for all these years.
Many of us have been working for political change for years and years. Some are new to the political process but they are jumping into the fray with their heart and soul.
Many of us are religious and have worked with our respective churches for peace and compassion around the world.
Many of us are painfully aware that governments - of many countries - do not represent the will of their people.
Many of us are tired of the few that make claims and assertions that a brash and hateful generalizations about any people or country.
Many of us are no longer willing to turn the other cheek and being caring and compassionate to the hateful. We will fight for the dignity of accuracy and integrity in words and speech.

Now what?

We have choices if we are we willing to exercise those choices.

Do we tolerate hate and hateful speech or do we call for peaceful solutions?

Do we tolerate rhetoric or ask for specific points of fact?

Do we walk the walk and promote peace and change or do we accept the status quo?

This is not a political diary it is philosophical discussion of where we choose to be.

This is not an open forum for more rhetoric...but a forum for what we see and expect of ourselves and the world around us.

What choices do we choose to make?

Rhetoric of Hate | 164 comments (164 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 14)

Recently a question was posed as to which leader of any country or any religious group could be seen as a peacemaker and a leader for change.

I came up with only 3:
Ghandi
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jimmy Carter, as Statesman

It is a sad commentary that in the past 50-60 years no major leaders were at the forefront of peace. We need leaders and speakers for peace...not for hate.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:40:34 AM EST

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 8)

As far as change goes, I might add FDR to that list.

Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Curious as to world impact (4.00 / 5)

of FDR - excluding WWII?

I know what his impact is to the U.S. with the New Deal and other programs. How did these change a world view on issues or circumstances?

Along the lines of:
Ghandi - taught us non-violent resistance and peace

MLK Jr. - taught the world more non-violent resistance and that minorities can have a voice if they stand together peacefully.

Jimmy Carter - well he just keeps working for peace and legal elections around the world.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Curious as to world impact (4.00 / 5)

Maybe my focus was too narrow. I was thinking of the beginning of the social safety net.

Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Curious as to world impact (4.00 / 3)

As to Carter, he might have spared my life, and definetly did spare the lives of thusands of my fellow citizens.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 9)

I might also add Mandela and Archbisphop Tutu.

If you want things to get better, be prepared to deal with change.

by Kahli on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:58:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed - they are in the same group (4.00 / 5)

Mandela and Archbishop Tutu worked for peaceful change within a single country that echoed around the world.

Thanks for the additions!

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 11)

the Dalai Lama?

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes the Dalai Lama is one (4.00 / 6)

His impact is very powerful to a major portion of the world. It is sad that so much of his teachings are not known to more people.

Great choice for the list Maryb...

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He was on my mind (4.00 / 3)

because I found this concerning news from The Independent via Catnip's Blog.

... the Dalai Lama's office in London announced he was cancelling a European tour on doctors' orders, just as it was about to begin in Helsinki, after he was told "to take complete rest".

I don't know how old he is, but I hope his "complete rest" works.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Today is the Dalai Lama's 71st. birthday. nt (4.00 / 2)

lTMF'sA...the revolution will not be televised...Peace

by dada on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Today is the Dalai Lama's 71st. birthday. nt (none / 1)

George Bush and the Dalai Lama born on the same day? Boggles my mind.

If you want things to get better, be prepared to deal with change.

by Kahli on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yin-Yang (4.00 / 4)

"Reversal is the movement of Tao." This is the secret of life and the law of nature. When things have gone too far to the extreme, there will be a movement of reversal.
The Book of Lao Tzi

lTMF'sA...the revolution will not be televised...Peace

by dada on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are just trying to cheer me up damn it! (none / 1)

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by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Today is the Dalai Lama's 71st. birthday. nt (none / 0)

There's this balance in nature, you understand....

Every third American devotes himself to improving and uplifting his fellow citizen, usually by force. -- Mencken

by stormkite on Tue Jul 11th, 2006 at 09:53:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 6)

Does Vaclav Havel deserve to be on the list?

by no3reed on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Havel - early years maybe but not later (4.00 / 5)

There were so many parts to Havel that were profound towards change and leadership for change - at least in the 1970s or so. His writings were catalyst for so many ideals that resonated among the people.

Yet: one of his last actions as President of the Czech Republic was to support George W. Bush and his actions in Iraq.

So - my answer would be no...he was inconsistent in his goals and actions for peace at the end of his Presidency.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Havel - early years maybe but not later (4.00 / 7)

Fair enough. I was so disappointed in him then that I'd suppressed the memory. As I recall now, his support was pretty tepid -- but it was support.

There was a priceless photo taken at a joint press conference they gave; I wish I could find it -- it's stored on another computer that doesn't work most of the time. Bush was speaking and Havel was standing off to the side looking at him. The latter's expression was priceless; a mingling of utter disdain and wonderment that this person could be where he was. I gave it my own caption: "What if they scheduled a meeting of the minds and only one showed up?"

Still, I guess you're right. That should be a disqualifier.

by no3reed on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:42:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like you I was disappointed (4.00 / 8)

It confused and disappointed me at the time.

For me I felt he was trying to get greater recognition for the Czech people from the U.S. Seeking good for through misguided political reasons.

Through the decades before he was a strong leader and idealist to believe in. I believe that history will treat him generously in the long term. So much good was done...

Let's give him an honorable mention - for all that went before.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:47:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like you I was disappointed (4.00 / 6)

"Honorable mention" -- a perfect solution. (I was thinking of giving him an asterisk, as they do with "tainted" sports records, but I don't think that's a strong enough "downrating".)

by no3reed on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For my money, I think you could add ... (4.00 / 7)

...Olaf Palme, Desmond Tutu, Alva Myrdal, Oscar Arias Sanchez, the Dalai Lama, Doctors without Borders, Aung San Suu Kyi.

"We're trying to give the illusion of due diligence." --Bennett Holiday to Jimmy Pope in Syriana

by Meteor Blades (tleelange@hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Senghor (4.00 / 3)

I was just reminded again today of the anti-colonialist, poet (founder of the negritude movement, and first President of Senegal, Leopold Senghor.

". . . the more educated you are, the more indoctrinated you are. After all, propaganda is largely directed towards the privileged." -Noam Chomsky

by Arcturus on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 3)

I'd add Cesar Chavez & Thich Nhat Hanh.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 04:27:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

SallyCat!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (4.00 / 10)

We pooties have been waiting so very patiently for your return! Hope the grandkiddes are well!

Thanks for the great diary, these are the key issues and, as you mention, directly concern my letter to my sister, posted just after you posted this one.

I've also been working on a longish piece that concerns the overuse of the designation "troll" which IMHO is dehumanizing and had no place in civilized discourse. There's way too much at stake for us to resort to childish name-calling, and I think we need to grow up the faster the better.

by mythmother (mythmother (at) gmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:19:20 PM EST

Thanks for the pooties! (4.00 / 8)

I agree with the use of the term 'troll' as being overused - at least on the 'big' site. Perhaps we can come up with another term that adequately describes disruptive and hateful diarists and commenters.

Dehumanizing is an interesting word in this diary scenario. Since the premise of a troll is that they create the level of rhetoric and generalizations that dehumanize those that disagree it might be a good word.

What I'm trying to do is find a way to stop the dehumanizing created by generalizations....

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:26:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a beautiful diary SallyCat (4.00 / 11)

Things have come a long way in a years time for me. Next month it will be the one year birthday of America standing at Crawford and My God how things have changed. It feels like a lifetime for me, it was a lifetime ago when people whispered their unsureness about this Iraq stuff. Forget about calling it an illegal war or any such thing, forget about demanding PEACE with an air of confidence and Democrats giving ProWar Dems the toss (bye bye Joe), and Bush dropping like a stone. When I think that it has only been a year getting from point "A" to here it takes my breath away. All of us standing in that ditch wondering if we would be arrested, the secret service snapping photos trying to intimidate us and news trucks and reporters and rain and portapotties and taking a bath with babywipes......and then that rally when America came to stand with us and all I could do was stand there and cry. I have seen the best of people who live in my country. I know it's hard to believe but there are amazing intelligent peace loving energy conserving child nurturing people who are even Texans.......who knew? Meeting each other and marching in D.C., creating an infrastructure of PEACE that has been built upon every day since! I'm proud to be an American today, but I don't think I'm George Bush's idea of an American who deserves to be proud. He's only president though, he isn't God! I think that I used to think he was God though....of ever considering that he wielded that kind of power and ability to control me - of that I am ashamed but I didn't let it lie. I got up and did something along with all of these other people and it was a day by day thing, and some days seemed hopeless but we continued on day by day and I woke up today and looked back.....looked behind me at the road that has been traveled, and I am astounded as hell at us all! I am reminded also that after Crawford's birthday will come Katrina's birthday too and all I really have is today and the day by day way I choose to live and I choose to ask questions and I choose to demand accountability and answers and I see that America is taking out a would be dictator all by her little ole self!

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by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:00:56 PM EST

Truly a long year and more (4.00 / 8)

Recently my husband recalled that when Bush was elected in 2000 the thought was 'what can one man do in 4 years?' Well, 5+ years later he is appalled and fighting as hard as I am for change.

He is a quiet, soft spoken man that has the compassion of the world inside of him...and a long fuse before he gets angry. He is angry now with me, and you, and so many others. He is no longer soft spoken about the evils of this government. He is fighting with you for an end to this war and the corruption. The diaries from Crawford and Washington DC touched many of us on levels so deep we can feel it still now. If there was another march - he would be with standing with you.

We are no longer turning the other cheek to those that create this hate among differing people. So many of us are standing and demanding accountability. Accountability from our government, from complicit governments, from the media, and from any that will stand and make broad generalizations.

Thank you for your fight and passion and your heart. We are with you....thank you for being here.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is a beautiful diary SallyCat (4.00 / 6)

I agree Tracy...this is a very beautiful diary. I also have to look back a year and how far we all have come and so much has been accomplished. Not as much as most of us would like but slowly but surely, we shall overcome. It will take a long time to heal our country but it WILL happen because of people like you Sally and you Tracy. You both have been great inspirations to me. Thank you both for your dedication and wisdom that you share with us. I have hope becausee of it!!

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

by alohaleezy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 9)

This was a very interesting dairy to read today. The first thing that came to my mind was is:

Serenity Prayer
---------------
God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
Courage to change the things I can
and wisdom to know the difference

I believe the simple philosophy in this prayer shows us all the way to deal with generalizations and the way leaders project their will on the peoples they lead.

Maybe I am being too simple with this but I just feel the KISS (Keep It Simple, Silly) principle would solve the world's problems.

We must not continue to cure the symptoms and ignore the disease!
Spiritual Awakening

by vieravisionary (tdelaine (at) cfl (dot) rr (dot) com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:30:08 PM EST

Oh that prayer (4.00 / 8)

That prayer that I usually only say when I have been brought to my knees and there is no where left to turn and everything is intolerable and painful. That prayer that frees up my energy for what really matters and expands it exponentially in ways I never dreamed! I wish I could give you five 4's for this.

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh that prayer (4.00 / 7)

MT, it's so hard for me to imagine you truly brought to your knees because you always exude optimism even when you are justifiably angry about what's going on in this world.

I just wanted you to know that I respect you for maintaining that optimism when it would be so easy to give in to negativity and pessimism. Because without optimism, I don't see how any truly effective action is possible.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow Mary (4.00 / 6)

You just caused me to think about Bill Mitchell again at Crawford and how no matter how scared I was sometimes, whenever he was around I knew right down to my toes that we would be okay. These assholes scared the crap out of everybody last year....they had 9/11 in their arsenal and it was used to justify EVERYTHING so who knew what they thought they could get away with? And on Sunday the Vietnam Vets were going to start their walk onto the ranch after Thursday came and went and no one was arrested. After the rally and some CNN coverage they were going to be arrested and who ever wanted to go with them could. I was ready, I was going.......but something that nobody anticipated happened and thousands and thousands of people came. Everybody stood around gawking at each other....what the hell do you do after this.....you don't take the most amazing beautiful party the God's ever conspired to throw and end it with getting arrested do you? It's time to pass out canapes damn it! And so they did........canape anyone?

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by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh that prayer (4.00 / 5)

Because without optimism, I don't see how any truly effective action is possible.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, maryb. If someone has no hope for the future, why do anything? And as Nag said below, all that hot air of negativity just sucks the oxygen right out of me.

by CabinGirl on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks! (4.00 / 5)

I appreciate your efforts and strength of character to actively fight for your beliefs. This prayer is my daily call to see what can be done and trust in God for the rest.

A new day is dawning!!!

We must not continue to cure the symptoms and ignore the disease!
Spiritual Awakening

by vieravisionary (tdelaine (at) cfl (dot) rr (dot) com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 8)

Thank you for this diary, SallyCat. That's all. Thank you.

by no3reed on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:31:26 PM EST

Ahhh, fresh air! (4.00 / 9)

All that hot air blowing around sucks the oxygen right out of me.

It's so hard not to feel defeated and helpless when you're told that everything you believe, everything you fight for, all your hopes amounts to nothing but a hateful generalization. The most that I can do is to live by my own ideals with all my heart. If that involves political activism to try and change things, then great. My problem is that I get depressed when I see how hopeless the situation in our country looks, despite my best efforts.

I read Tracy's comment and feel proud to know her, even if it's only through this blog. I stand with her. We are stronger when we stand together, and that counts for attacks from within. Why would someone attack our community? To weaken us, to sow defeatism, to destroy our hope. If we didn't hold hope in our hearts that the nightmare that is the US government could be changed we wouldn't be here. It is people like us... millions of us... who will change things. By attacking our integrity and motives, they attack the only hope this country has of pulling away from the horrible course we're on.

Ignore 'em. I proudly take my place alongside you, SallyCat, and you, Tracy and all of you who continue to fight with all we've got to take our country back.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.- Thomas Jefferson

by Nag on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:41:29 PM EST

We are stronger (4.00 / 10)

This I know because I was scared to say anything and I just shut the door behind me every day and sat behind it and hurt. This entire nation was a hostage eleven short months ago and Bush was great in the polls and the Republicans reigned supreme. Those days are drawing to a close, and the longer it takes the stronger OUR infrastructure becomes because it is built out of need and hardship and hunger and the pains of death and it just keeps building and building! Hell girl, we are starting to throw the "bad" Democrats out with the trash!

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 01:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We are stronger and no longer afraid (4.00 / 9)

Fear of the unknown and each other is the strongest weapon used against any people. We were all subjected to that fear and anger and unfortunately a lot of people bought into it.

We are stronger and more vocal than before. Sometimes we need strategic retreats away from the battle lines to let the smoke clear and regroup. We come back stronger each time with reinforcements.

The sense of community in the blogosphere...around the world...gives us hope that we are all fighting for justice and peace. Last night I sat with my husband followed the election results in Mexico...on a blog. We know the issues and the candidates...because people care and share.

I'm pleased to be here with you Tracy, and Nag, and just so many that are here. Each of us touches the other for good or bad. I'd like to continue to believe we are fighting for good. We are growing and changing - not as one nation or group of people...but as a world together.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 9)

I just try to stay out of the loop of blog politics. It's better for me that way. No, I'm not being an ostrich... it's just I need to keep my batteries charged for other matters and there's others here who can carry the torch...

I'm very sad today. Sad and angry and I've angrily written my tears onto posts... Today... Lt. Ehren Watada is being charged and will face up to 8 years in jail.

My heart is breaking... right now. I try to be strong. Strong by even showing my weakness my fears... but right now folks... this just feels like a kick to my heart. It's even hard to swallow, you know.

GAWWWWWWWWWWWWD I met this man. He tried to console Danni when she started to cry when she went up to him... She was sad he would have to be alone, might go to prison...

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK FUCK ... what is wrong with this fucking picture??? I don't know what to say to her. I haven't been able to tell her much of anything when she asks me the hardestest yet simplest quetions. That is why I march. That is why I act, write, yell, scream, place my vertigo ass on fucking bridges!!!

Please... I am so sorry but my heart feels like it's breaking and I need you guys. There's so much fucking fighting. My issues, their issues. Whose issues... It's like a fucking Dr. Seuss game in blogs sometimes... and

Ehren is going to jail.

Loved ones are going to wars.

Friends are being arrested.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:30:17 PM EST

He is going to jail for peace (4.00 / 8)

Janet my heart breaks for you and for Lt. Watada and Danni and so many.

Yet I'll ask you to be strong and be proud of Lt. Watada. He is a man of convictions and a man seeking peace. A person of ideals willing to accept the punishment from an unjust system for his beliefs. So many others before...simple people making a stand...MLK Jr. in jail, Mandela in jail, Malcom X in jail. They were in jail before they were well known...yet they became known to the world.

We'll hold Lt. Watada in our hearts and minds...and not let his actions be in vain. We'll keep fighting for peace...and a pardon for those willing to stand for their beliefs.

Hugs DJ...be strong and be proud of his actions.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He is going to jail for peace (4.00 / 9)

Thank you my friend. I'm sorry for barging in this...

Americans don't all suck. We don't. My tears and runny nose and complete fucking verge of just wanting to breakdown should be some small sign that we do care and we are aware and we are trying to stop this craziness. My country isn't perfect holy shit I know that. That is why my heart breaks as it does. That is why my tender feet have blood blisters on them. That is why I'm willing to shrink from my own personal needs and safety and try do something.

I am an American... I am America. I am a part of this planet.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:46:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's people like you, DJ... (4.00 / 6)

and your family...and Lt. Watada...and Tracy and her family...and the CodePINKers and VFPs and all the other groups out there talking and fighting that make me proud to be an American.

And I have to believe that there are far more of "us" than there are of "them"...far more Americans are opposed to this stupid war and Bush's stupid policies (foreign and domestic), but they're still too scared to speak, or they (we) haven't found their (our) voice or the outlet to express it. The day will come, though, when the multitudes will be silent no more...and in the words of Mrs. Loman in Death of a Salesman, "Attention must be paid."

I think I know the diary that Sally is referencing here...and I refused to click on it. My doctor wants me to keep the blood pressure down. :)

Blessings and peace to you and yours...yeah, even Wesley... ;)

-- Walking In Darkness --

by Cali Scribe on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Cali (4.00 / 4)

I got up. Heard the news. Checked our hockey site... and saw the "crap" directed at Liberals. Pushed me over the edge perhaps.

I felt bad at first for bawling in Sally's diary about division and hate... but.. you know what... This is probably the best diary to regroup in.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll be there in a bit (4.00 / 3)

Not sure what I can lend other than moral support...or maybe "immoral" in my case... ;)

-- Walking In Darkness --

by Cali Scribe on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sorry = wrong diary and alll (4.00 / 8)

But I feel safe amongst you all here.

It's like a culmination of all that I do try to do... on this one thing and it for what? An article on page 8 of the Oregonian? That after all this he's going to prison.

I wrote. I called. I got involved. I got involved in getting others aware and involved. I made signs, hell Danni made signs. We hung banners. We called the base.

I stood near a base gate while people made troat slit gestures, while they flipped me off, called me names like FUCKING CUNT! I stood till I came home to vomit. I took three showers to get the smell of the highway off me. My friends were spat at. People threw our pamphlets back at us. They circled around and around to continue to scream at us.

I wrote Wyden. I wrote the media. I sent out press releases. I spoke to reproters. I sent follow up press releases.

And today me and Danni sit in shock.

Yes... it's about peace and personal growth... I've changed dramatically with every passing week this President has sat on his stolen throne... but I had wanted so much to help in some small way to keep Lt. Watada out of jail. To support those who have no voice and have the strongest things to say. This war is illegal I will not fight it.

I'm sorry for blabbering in here... but I'm prone to finding safety zones and havens because there ain't much of them out there anymore for a silly woman, with a pink shirt and signs that say things from her heart.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not wrong diary at all (4.00 / 9)

The question posed asked what we are doing with our choices on the rhetoric. You answered by living your effort to make a difference...one person at a time.

You are sharing you pain here because that is what community is about. We each have been there with you in your diaries, we have felt the pain and anger and frustration, and we are all saddened by the government actions.

You are making a difference. Fighting for change and justice is what we are all about. Take some time to regroup...let your heart and soul heal some...you'll come back stronger than ever. We are always right here for you and any one that needs our support.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not wrong diary at all (4.00 / 6)

Sorry, had to get the pizzas out of the oven... I swear that's all I've been making for my kids lately... (insert mom guilt version 3.1,22394)

I'm not done. Just down.

There's going to be things we can do, call, send letters of support. I'll be there when he's released.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Look out for that boy when he gets (4.00 / 7)

released! I cried when Kevin Benderman went too Janet but he taught me a lot.....jail isn't the worst thing that can happen to any of us.

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tracy (4.00 / 6)

I'm gonna need your inside knowledge of how this works when the dust settles and we no more. Where he wil be sent. What can be sent to him... all that jazz. Okay?

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I will see what I can find out you dear heart! (4.00 / 5)

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I will see what I can find out you dear heart! (4.00 / 6)

Friend from CodePink just emailed me as they knew I had really taken this one on. I popped my pink cherry on this one. Even had to learn how to do PR and shit which I learned a big lesson about.

Anyways when the dust settles and we know more - there will be more campaigns. Maybe not National Level... but one Pink Lady will be continuing to make sure he's remembered and cared for.

These are my marching orders.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:21:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

{{{{Janet}}}} (4.00 / 9)

OK, so you didn't succeed in keeping Lt. Watada out of jail. He's not the first person to go to jail for a principle, and he won't be the last. But you put your heart and soul into it, and you know what? Now you have a failure you can be proud of. You have done the right thing, even if you didn't get the results you wanted.

Small consolation, I know, but who knows whether you might not have made just one of those people who drove by think a little. And when we get people to think, we win.

The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

by Omir the Storyteller (omir.the.storyteller -CAT- gmail -DOG- com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OMIR (4.00 / 6)

I've been so upset about the attrocities and wondering what they'll get for time and here Watada is doing time. I know life's not fair, gawd I know that... but I just wanted some sign that we aren't just bashing ourselves up against a brick wall.

I assure you I'm not giving up on this one. Not yet. And even if he goes for the full 8 years or even 1 yaer, I will continue to say it was wrong and I will be there when he gets out.

So.. a party for when we bust out this regime in DC and another party for when Watada is returned to us.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lt. Watada has made empowering choices though (4.00 / 8)

too Janet. To face the abyss and to be inconvenienced for the greatest truths in our lifetimes, arms and feeds our higher selves. This won't be fun but Lt. Watada will never be the same old person he was before this. He has been tested and found not LACKING!

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 02:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry = wrong diary and alll (4.00 / 9)

(((Janet)))

You did your best and I'm sure Danni is as proud of you as we all are.

Tell her about Martin Luther King Jr. and how he was willing to go to jail for his beliefs. And Nelson Mandela. And Ghandi.

And the whole time they were in jail, there were good people who kept up the fight and wouldn't let the world forget them or the fact they were in jail.

Don't lose hope.

Help me raise money for Jay Nixon, the next Democratic governor of Missouri

by maryb2004 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:01:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Mary (4.00 / 7)

But I'm not sure I did all I could do. It's hard to do everything and sometimes that's what it takes. Yes, I tried to do as much as I could do.

Maybe I should have laid out in the street you know. I feel like I let him down, as well as me down. But I jsut didn't think getting arrested in such a martyrous way was good for anyone including Watada or the movement.

It's so frustrating to show up with six people and know that those six people are going to have to give more than 100% to cover the lacking. It's draining. And yet you gotta get up and figure out what to do next.

I'll find out where he'll be sent. Not sure if it'll be close by. I'd like to be able to send letters, make visits if I could. Find out what can be brought to him. I'm just reeling, you know Mary.

this really sucks. And I know my tears are somewhat selfish ones right now. I'm not completely thinking of Ehren or his family or what this says to the rest of the officers who were thinking of standing up and saying no. Right now I'm being a pansy ass whiner.

But I'll get a grip. I can't come in here and pretend I'm some tough, hard core activist who has it under control. Cause I am SO not that. I was thinking last night about the accolades and it's just not so. The other CodePink ladies don't seem to be as scared or introspective. They just haul ass and go, man. They're incredible. They know so so SO much. They lend me books and DVDs so I can one day catch up. LOL. I'm just a newbie and this one... this one really hurt. But.. it aint over. XOXOXOXO

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Janet, you are a darling darling person (4.00 / 5)

He knew what he was doing babe. He knew what he was risking and had weighed it all out for himself and he was/is ready for the worst! He asked you guys to stand with him and he asked you to fight with him, and you guys did! I have a funny feeling about this guy though.......he's one of those guys who they are going to wish they just quietly let go of if they could have. I'm not sure he would have allowed them to get away with that though! Where warmongers are concerned though they are fashioning something that will prove to be their own undoing in the end.

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Tracy. (4.00 / 7)

he wasn't going awol he wasn't saying after all this time he was a conscientious objector. He said he'd figh in Afghanistan... (which made him lose some of the anti-war folks) but what sparked me was that he was an officer, a warrior willing to fight, kill and die... but not for a LIE.

This is what was so different about him. This is what set him apart.

I support those who run from this lie... but it's even as important to stand up with those who let it be known that Iraq is wrong. Bush lied.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dare I say Janet (4.00 / 4)

That I don't consider taking action on the Taliban in Afghanistan warmongering. Stacking them up at Gitmo and military courts and ignoring the Geneva Convention not okay, firing our military leaders in the Pentagon who had ethics and morals because they might not slaughter very well not okay......the people in the twin towers though did not deserve to die and governments that aid in organizing such things are accountable in my book.

PMS Purchase More Shoes

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dare I say Janet (4.00 / 4)

Oh that's not what I mean Tracy. I meant that he would go and fight in Afghanistan. I had no issues with that really, but many many did.

I'm anti-war... yes. But the bigger picture is that this man stood up against the "war" in Iraq. That's what I had to focus on.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks Tracy. (4.00 / 3)

DJ, thanks for all your efforts and diaries. They have truly been an inspiration as we get to see things through your eyes. Rest assured that your efforts have not been in vain.

Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you my friend (4.00 / 3)

I play hard. I protest hard. and sometimes that means I crash hard.

And thanks for the photo fun diary the other day. :)

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(((((((DJ)))))))) (4.00 / 3)

Please hang in there my friend. Know that all you do and say and write is appreciated. Please also let us know when you find out where the LT will be kept and how we can go about wrting him and supporting him. Know that I love and admire you girl. Don't ever forget that, EVER!!

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

by alohaleezy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(((LEEZY!!!!)))) (none / 1)

You have no idea how much I've missed you!!!! Cripes, I was just asking about you on the phone to Sally last night when she called me.

My world's more stable when I know you're near. :) And yes I will let you know whassup when I get a clue as to what exactly needs to be done and what I am going to do and how you all can do a part of it, too.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (((LEEZY!!!!)))) (4.00 / 3)

You have my email and home phone girlfriend so call anytime you need to talk. I have missed you too!! I have been mostly lurking but I am feeling really good these days. I have been a nonsmoker 6 weeks tomorrow. I never thought I would be able to quit so this is a freaken miracle.

Sorry, didn't mean to make this comment about me. I just want you to know I am here for you always! Take care of yourself!

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

by alohaleezy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (((LEEZY!!!!)))) (none / 1)

6 weeks!! That's fantastic!!! You righteous surfer woman, you!!!!! Er... I lost your number. I'm horrid about that organized stuff.

These diaries are about all of us. Otherwise, what's the point, right? :)

I'm so glad you're mending.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (((LEEZY!!!!)))) (none / 1)

I will email you when I get home from work with phone#. Love you girl!

Frodo failed...Bush has got the ring.

by alohaleezy on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks Mary (4.00 / 4)

DJ:for what I've read so far, you are just getting started. The should have,could have, would havewill do you no good. Instead look at it as: Now what? And don't give up.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 5)

My own take on a topic closely related to that of DF's post was posted on Memorial Day. It is harshly critical not just of the Bush administration but of generalized aspects of US cultural mentality with respect to war. If I may say so, I think it shows that one cas express such ideas without rhetorically painting Americans as a lesser form of humanity.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 03:08:17 PM EST

Definitely a topic for ongoing diaries (4.00 / 3)

As compassionate citizens of the world, as well as being U.S. citizens, we need to have an open dialogue about the problems that we are confronting. Those of us that participate in blogs are painfully aware of the wrongs perpetrated in the name of America.

Your diary touched on historical issues as well as moral issues. I would like to think that we can have a reasoned series of diaries on both topics.

Right now I'm trying to put the focus on which choice we want to make...rhetoric or discussion. One person or one issue at a time or generalizations.

Thank you for the link to your diary it was very thoughtful and insightful. I'll read all the comments in depth tonight.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 8)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I wanted to write these ideas on the diary that inspired yours, but couldn't bring myself to comment.

We are all capable of being better than this.

I abhor stereotypes of any kind, even of Americans. I was thinking recently that I decided to study Russian when it was politically incorrect to like Russians. I've just never seen vast generalizations about an entire country to be constructive in any way whatsoever. What has it ever accomplished? Nothing.

I share the shame & disgust that most of the world has in response to much of America's policies and cultural values. I couldn't even celebrate the 4th. But the only way to reverse those policies and improve those lifestyles is to find out why they exist & persist and work to eradicate those root causes. Saying things like "Americans cannot be reasoned with" might feel cathartic, and I certainly utter my daily share of epithets aimed at Americans who commit all kinds of crimes against decency. But while they might help me deal with momentary fits of anger and frustration, they do nothing to improve anyone's situation. And in fact, they even work to cement the divide between the various US and THEMs.

In short, writing anyone off is almost a self-fullfilling prophecy. Who values the opinions of those who have no faith in them to begin with? Few. And so it is both counter-productive AND disingenuous. Writing off 300,000,000 unique individuals, most of whom you have never met, is intellectual laziness on a scale only George W. Bush could appreciate. Americans are many things, but a homogeonous monolith is NOT one of them.

And one more thing about statements writing off America: Those who say it can't be done need to get the hell out of the way of those doing it.

At this point you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. And show me problem solved by ignorance and hate...

I don't want to invalidate anyone's anger. There are few who don't have every right to be angry. It's what we do with that anger that is the difference between good and evil.

by poemless on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:15:18 PM EST

Re: Rhetoric of Hate-i-ness... (4.00 / 2)

" But the only way to reverse those policies and improve those lifestyles is to find out why they exist & persist and work to eradicate those root causes."

I threw my television out more than twenty years ago; I moved to France.

Really. I think I've done my part.

The rest is up to you guys.

by proximity1 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nope - not letting you off the hook (4.00 / 3)

As small creatures sharing this fragile world we are all entwined by our actions. So...as a butterfly flits is wings in France so shall there be a gentle breeze near my home in California.

You are fluttering your wings toward peace and understanding...we feel it and welcome it.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wax on, wax off, wax on, wax off... (none / 1)

"Writing off 300,000,000 unique individuals, most of whom you have never met, is intellectual laziness..."

Hey! Just a minute!

I've met a lot of Americans, lady!

by proximity1 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:50:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate-i-ness... (none / 1)

"Those who say it can't be done need to get the hell out of the way of those doing it."

How's France? Is that out of the way enough for you?

by proximity1 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chins up, DJ and all (4.00 / 4)

I know how you feel-I was at the Tibetan festival a couple weeks ago and when I stopped by the Amnesty International table and started reading and signing yet one more petition I broke down crying and couldn't stop, totally incoherent too. And I'm a member so this wasn't any new info.

The activist Rob los Rios just got out of prison after serving 7 (I think) years for allegedly throwing a rock at a cop in Eugene OR. He said that what kept him going was letters, letters, letters.

Do you remember the defiant additional verse, written during the McCarthy years, to the old hymn/folk song How Can I Keep From Singing?
...
In prison cell and dungeon vile,
Our thoughts to them are winging.
When friends by shame are undefiled,
How can I keep from singing?

'soup

by homemadesoup (homitsuatyahoodotcom) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:17:05 PM EST

Re: Chins up, DJ and all (none / 1)

We have to meet soon! :)

You know I think that's what scares me the most about any public protest is that some nutcase not from the group will throw something and we'll get busted for it. All it takes is one rock, bottle and a riot happens. It's crazy.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I had lost my mind... I have this in order so I can go out.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix

by Damnit Janet on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Always a .... (4.00 / 4)

"Sweeping generalizations by an individual, in a blog diary, in the media, or by a government are ALWAYS wrong."

Good opening.

by proximity1 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:47:23 PM EST

Exception that proves the point? (4.00 / 2)

I re-wrote that three times and still went back to 'that' sweeping generalization. ;^)

Actually - my sweeping generalization is that most people, no matter where, are good intentioned and really want to do what is right. To that thought I hold tight as it keeps me fighting for this little blue orb we all call home.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exception that proves the point? (4.00 / 3)

Yeah, yeah, that's what they all say.

;^)

by proximity1 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 04:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 2)

This diary recommended by...

proximity1 and, oh, my---

BooMan
shirlstars
Meteor Blades
CabinGirl
alohaleezy
diane101
dada
Sirocco
Nag
boran2
Militarytracy
Damnit Janet
cruz del sur
Alice
Brementown Musician
shermanesqe
redwagon
mythmother
Kahli
poemless
KMc
esquimaux
Shalimar
maryb2004
Iowa Victory Gardener
Chris

...too!

You go, girl! ;^)

by proximity1 on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 05:06:49 PM EST

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 4)

And this counts for what?
To do more of that which you are indirectly accusing DuctapeFatwa of, divisiveness?

I've learned a lot today and yesterday about priorities. And how to waste time.

"green grass and high tides forever"

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I took the generous position of a compliment (4.00 / 3)

of my diary and efforts and hope that was the intent.

There is a time to stop rhetoric and I was hoping that this diary would provide a path in that direction. So...I'll presume proximity is enouraging my efforts...as others encourage other writers. I'm sorry you were offended by the comments. My presumption is that culturally proximity and I are working from different perspectives (France and U.S.) but for the same goals.

Peace supersoling...

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I took the generous position of a compliment (4.00 / 3)

Hey Sally, Super is just jealous because he wasn't included. :-)

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Counts for what?... (4.00 / 2)

Your question is a fair one.

Of what significance are the "recommendation"? Frankly, of little significance, since you asked.

The real import is in the arguments and their validity or lack of it. So, I can't dispute you for posing the question.

As for any accusing DuctapeFatwa of divisiveness either directly or indirectly, on that charge, I plead, "not guilty".

I am certainly not accusing him (or her) of any such thing and, to those who'd interpret my very lightly-made post above, to which your comment respond, as intended to support others accusations of DuctapeFatwa of being "divisive", I expressly disavow any such intention. Phooey on that.

In a forum, the point is to argue it out; state your views and defend them--even change them when others show you that you've been mistaken.

Divisive? Yes, I'm for it. I want to divide the valid from the invalid, the reason from the nonsense; the blinded cult-worship from the clear-sighted fair appraisals which hold our own to account just as much as we hold those we oppose to account and let the chips fall where they may.

I'm sorry to have left any other impression with you.

I've often read with a great deal of reservation the recommendations of others. Their value can be easily overdone and that ought to be avoided.

You've attached a great deal of importance to a post I tossed in with mainly a humorous motive; that perhaps was anything but clear.

In that case, very well, let me correct the impression here in this post.

by proximity1 on Fri Jul 7th, 2006 at 06:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What the hell is this? (4.00 / 3)

parvum opus

by olivia on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

See my comment to supersoling above (4.00 / 2)

I am taking it in a spirit of encouragement.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay ... I can understand that SallyCat (4.00 / 4)

It is somewhat disconcerting to see the 'who rates who and who recs what diaries' game going on though. Please don't think that those who haven't rec'd or commented here disagree w/ your diary or the discussions. The discussion have been very important ones, and I'm glad you posted your diary.

parvum opus

by olivia on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I write to share an opinion and idea (4.00 / 3)

I would hope that some find my words of interest. Sometimes we struggle to find the write words and phrases that express our thoughts. Mine are just simple words and ideas...if they reach one person I shall be glad.

Rating and recs - lol - I've spent the last couple of months on the orange site...my ego is pretty hardened these days! Comments of a few thoughtful people mean more to me than all the recommends there are....

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric of Hate (4.00 / 5)

Let's see if I've got this straight:

posting a diary that reflects the opinion of much of the world about the attitudes of most Americans = being hateful

telling said diarist that he is a "Republican troll" who writes things that are "pathetically fucking stupid = not being hateful

What strange parallel universe have I dropped into here?

I'll tell you one thing: I am profoundly grateful that I am not hateful towards anyone because it would kill my spirit and I would cease to live. And, as Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see..."

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:38:30 PM EST

Yet here we are in this same mode (4.00 / 2)

Attack and counter-attack...

I do not hate Ductape for the diary.
I do not hate those that espouse rhetoric generalizing hatred and stupidity towards any nation.
I stand by my comments in that diary - and by the defiintions within FAQ's and Common Wisdom as to disruptive diarists and comments. At least one of the comments you quote is not mine, and I am sorry you felt it necessary to attribute the comments of others to me.

I did not post these comments in that diary and ask that they be limited to the topic of this diary.

I asked that this be a philosophical diary - and did not bring politics here.

I am asking whether it is what we expect of each other...and how far we have become divided.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yet here we are in this same mode (4.00 / 4)

At least one of the comments you quote is not mine, and I am sorry you felt it necessary to attribute the comments of others to me.

I didn't attribute it to you.

I asked that this be a philosophical diary - and did not bring politics here.

You wrote:

That has nothing to do with politics?

I am asking whether it is what we expect of each other...and how far we have become divided.

And so am I. Why is it acceptable behaviour to attack each other so viciously (as some have) on a lefty blog where people are working towards the same aim? Yes, opinions differ and everyone has a right to their own. The discussion in that diary was very informative in many ways, but what really causes divisions is when people choose to bring their emotions and preconceived notions of a person into the debate in order to negate whatever that person says. And that is definitely trollish behaviour. I have read the FAQs and I am well aware of the main rule here: don't be a prick.

You want to heal divisons? Treat people with respect and humility. It really is that simple.

by catnip (llamg88 at hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's this old Archie Shepp quote (4.00 / 3)

Something I wrote last December that might be appropriate.

There was something from the liner notes of an Archie Shepp album (Live in San Francisco, which by the way is an excellent album) that caught my eye, where Archie says:

"Love is fundamental to art. I can't go to work with hate in my heart. I go to work with love in my heart. But love can express itself in bitterness and rage. That's only an aspect of love."
That I think sums up my own work, whether it's in the classroom, in poetry, my professional writing, or when it comes to blogging. Friends and acquaintances have referred to my poetry as dark - sometimes gloomy, sometimes angry. The same is said about my sense of humor, and again the same could be said about what I do here in my little corner of blogtopia. Know that the anger that can periodically jump out at you has its foundations in love: for my family, my country, my planet, my faith, etc. I sincerely doubt I could create - whether in an off-the-cuff blog remark or something more substantive such as a scientific paper - with hate in my heart. Hate destroys. There's no need to go there. And love in all its forms, is everywhere to be found.

I've interpreted DTF's writing as in the spirit of love. I wish love were all nice words and flowers. It ain't.

The Mahatma X Files. Peace With Attitude.

by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Love is fundamental... (4.00 / 3)

Dark has its place in art and life and writing...yet...

Framing and direction and responsiveness to the readers of the darkness helps those that do not see the love you do. We need more open communication and even dark poetry and writings are clear as to the source and direction of their anger.

So...when you write in darkness - let there be a candle showing us where your heart is. Not all of us can see through your eyes...we need to be shown the way through the darkness that you share.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 06:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Love is fundamental... (4.00 / 2)

So...when you write in darkness - let there be a candle showing us where your heart is. Not all of us can see through your eyes...we need to be shown the way through the darkness that you share.

This is very insightful SallyCat. However, I don't believe that you mean it. Because if you did, you would also be open to seeing things through the darkness that DTF sees things through, and that many more of us see things through. Pagan and Wiccan poetry does not make patronizing someone any less wrong. Nor will it do much to save the next innocent Iraqi child from being blown up, or the next American soldier from being blown up.

"green grass and high tides forever"

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Love is fundamental... (none / 1)

You don't believe I mean it? That is your choice yet it is my belief.

I am asking that DTF write in a way that shows us why he sees the darkness. I am asking that all of us write in a way that shows what our perceptions are.

The same question that I asked of catnip I ask of you:
Is that your choice - that we continue to disbelieve another's belief?

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 07:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Love is fundamental... (4.00 / 3)

See, when you ask someone to write in ways that are more comfortable or easier for you to understand, IMO it's like the American media covering up the realities of destroyed bodies, homes, villages, civilizations. It's not the full picture. Dark is stark. It isn't comfy. I think he showed pretty clearly what his perceptions are. And he was supported in that perception by enough of us, I would hope, to put to rest this notion that he is an America hater, a troll, a right wing plant. Because if he is all of those things, then so am I.

"green grass and high tides forever"

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Love can be stark but not brutal (4.00 / 2)

To slap someone around and say 'it's because I love you and know whats best' is still wrong. To beat a partner or friend or wife or child and then say...I'm sorry...it wasn't you it was everybody else that upset me...is still wrong. In my opinion your analogy doesn't work.

Communication doesn't have to be brutal to be honest. Brutality is for bullies.

Is that your choice?

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Love can be stark but not brutal (4.00 / 2)

My choice is to know exactly how someone feels. I don't want or need it to be dressed up so that I can handle it better. I can either handle it or not. I think it's been shown pretty clearly now who can handle it, and who can't. I'm willing to challege and examine my own failings as an American enough to handle what someone from the outside looking in thinks. That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt sometimes. It does. But just because honesty, as I see it, hurts sometimes, doesn't mean it's brutal. Nor does it mean that brutality was intended. And it certainly doesn't make someone an abuser.

"green grass and high tides forever"

by supersoling (colorsplash62@optonline.net) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 10:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sincerely disagree (none / 1)

My choice is to know exactly how someone feels. .....I think it's been shown pretty clearly now who can handle it, and who can't.

My perception is that you choose not to see how I feel. That is your choice.

My perception is that you choose to make a presumption about what I can and cannot handle. That is also your choice.

So be it...as others have said above...do not presume do speak for me.

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sincerely disagree (none / 1)

My advice is for people to read my latest front-page post, or actually the PW link, and think about urban crime, rather than fight about whether Ductape is, or is not, offensive.

by BooMan on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh boy...you're no fun... (none / 1)

Actually I just got home from getting deeper on the NSA list! Went out and bought a couple of books on Islam and the Quran. That should set off more NSA buzzers.

Oh yeah...and I've got tickets to see Al Gore next Friday night talk about his book....neener, neener, neener...

Got to have my priorities...now off to your diary...

by SallyCat on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 11:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I remember (4.00 / 6)

reading recently a similar request to Arthur Gilroy to change his writing style, and he basically responded that his writing is his writing. It's part of his 'voice'. It really made me stop to think that perhaps I needed to get past any sylistic blocks I have with some writers and make the effort to read what he/she is trying to convey. Most of time I do a good job at discerning a message, but I'm also willing to concede that I can get it wrong. That's why you'll usually see me ask a question instead of jump right in with fire if I disagree. This is especially important when I'm reading something so complex like a Ductape diary.

I think it's a worthy discussion to have regarding how to communicate in a way that provides some breathing room for differing opinions, but when it comes as a result of a thread involving personal attacks and questions of motives that are merely opinions and not known facts, then it's hard to break out of that cycle.

Just some thoughts. Peace

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I remember (4.00 / 3)

you know, I am surprised to see all these comments about how ductape's writing is mystical, or complex, or symbolic, or stylistic difficult. I guess they are for a lot people.

I just see them as formulaic. Once you recognize the theme, you can kind of just focus on the artistry of it. That's what I do. I don't even read the nuts and bolts, but just at looks for hooks and bends.

I know the argument by heart, so why focus on every word?

But, I guess I've read too much Cold War propaganda on both sides not to see his stuff as standard tradecraft of the Marxist/Third World sch