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Pardon the plug -- but feminists at daily kos love you!

by Spit
Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 09:04:52 PM EST

Please, if this is stepping on toes/breaking rules/whatever, somebody let me know, and I will immediately delete this and post it in a more appropriate way. I was just aiming for more and longer in the visibility department.

But here's the deal -- lots of us, for various and completely understandable reasons, felt the need to leave the Big Orange behind a summer ago. Since then, there has been an unfortunate lack of strong, feminist voices at that particular place -- a sad reality which poster hrh is trying to correct by starting a thursday night discussion group,
the Planet of the Savage DKos Feminist Supervixens.

(I have linked to one episode, but there are more under various other posters -- I will link to tonight's when it is posted).

This group will be meeting Thursday nights somewhere around 6 or 7, it seems.

So this is an invite, and it's also a Spit commentary.

The invite part is this:

for those of you who are willing to poke your heads back into the orange place, the discussion is waiting for you. There will be one tonight, and there will be one next week, and all are welcome to join!

The Spit commentary part is this:

I completely understand the exodus that occured last summer, and in fact probably would have thrown up my hands and left myself, had I been around for the infamous pie wars. Still, I think there is some value in providing a feminist discussion space within what has become the mainstream, both to involve new people and to provide support for those who stayed. I see a lot of benefit in having that discussion be central to one spot for the time being; however, I also am willing, with hrh's permission (which I'd still have to inquire about), to crosspost the discussion here, should there be a strong set of people who are really set in not going back, or who cannot for whatever reason.

Please come check it out if you can, and let me know if you'd like to see it crossposted or would prefer, as I would, to see the discussion grow in one spot first.

Pardon the plug -- but feminists at daily kos love you! | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

As an aside, perhaps (4.00 / 3)

what does it take to have feminist discussion spaces on general left wing blogs? Is it important, or do feminist blogs provide enough of a backdrop for the real discussion?

I'm not yet sure such a thing can gain traction, but I also figure, every person who didn't know "the f word" fit who gets sucked into the discussion makes the effort worth it.

Thoughts? Snark? Shut-the-hell-up, Spit?

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 09:19:12 PM EST

Re: As an aside, perhaps (4.00 / 3)

Thanks for posting this here, I'm glad to be aware of it. One of the things that drew me to the pond in the first place was the presence of the strong women here.

I'm interested in reading discussions on feminism, but probably wouldn't actively participate much. It's something that I'm definitely more in a position to learn about than to teach.

Although there are certainly some people I could teach a thing or two to :)

Tengo un sueño.

by ejmw (ewitham (at) umich (dot) edu) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 09:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Many good feminist voices (4.00 / 3)

have wound up here, and I think BT is much stronger for having them. Still, as somebody who tends to pop in both places, I'm all for trying to rebuild some kind of feminist awareness over there as well.

I've been hoping to give the link for tonight's discussion, but I don't see it up yet over there. At any rate, it's a pretty informal thing, so whatever participation or lack thereof anybody feels up to is great. :)

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 09:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Many good feminist voices (4.00 / 3)

I agree about BT being stronger for it. I still frequent both here and dKos, but expect to get different things out of each site.

I think dKos can sustain a thread or two on feminism without it imploding. And I think it would be a good thing, without a doubt.

Tengo un sueño.

by ejmw (ewitham (at) umich (dot) edu) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 09:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pardon the plug -- but feminists at daily kos (4.00 / 4)

Just read through the one from late July and it was very interesting. I'll pop over when it goes up. Thanks, Spit.

"Don't waste your time on the clowns, watch the real show"

by Second Nature on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 09:57:10 PM EST

Here we go (4.00 / 3)

tonight's episode is up, by righteousbabe .

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 10:12:43 PM EST

Looking forward to it -- (4.00 / 2)

RB is one of my favorite posters...I know she's busy with school and such (she's another along with our own PsiFighter37 that gives me hope for the future) but maybe she might consider a front page spot on weekends sometime?

-- Walking In Darkness --

by Cali Scribe on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 11:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would love (4.00 / 2)

to see her frontpaged somewhere. Lord, I wish I had half her energy, and at 15 (!) I was busy fucking myself up, not writing intelligent and daring feminist rants.

She gives me a lot of hope, too. A lot of the younger feminists do.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 11:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ask and ye shall receive (none / 1)

frontpaged at my left wing.

she's an inspiration.

</bush>

by wu ming on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 03:27:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pardon the plug -- but feminists at daily kos (4.00 / 5)

I haven't really said shit about dKos since I left over a year ago. I was actually one of the original commenters there, too, long before the switch to Scoop. (Under a different handle.) I stayed out of the Pie Wars almost entirely, although I watched from the sidelines, and I said very little anywhere regarding why I left. But because it's you asking, Spit, I'll say what I think.

I have very low regard for sizeable chunks of the community over there in general, especially some of the members with power. This isn't just about feminism, though. It's also about how, from my pov, power is (ab)used, and how there's a marked lack of respect for progressive politics on the whole. I'm well to the left of most folks around here, let alone over there, and I think this whole "centrist" politics thing masquerading as lefty politics is, while always distasteful and nasty, really fucking dangerous considering the current context of our country.

Still, I could probably get past all of that. I'm a grown woman who's smarter than most people, plus I've had a very rough life so I understand better than most how the world works. But the kicker for me is Markos himself. I have no interest spending time in any place where the host is not only disrespectful toward and ignorant of feminism, but actively hostile toward it and committed to maintaining his ignorance of it.

It was Markos himself who so rudely showed me and mine the door just because we want equality taken seriously and our equality is a non-negotiable part of feminist politics. I don't think he wants to listen, I don't think he wants to learn, and I know for sure that I don't want to beat my head against a brick wall, all the while being insulted and dismissed. I've spent too much of my time in this life doing that already and I'm too old for it, and life's too short. So at the end of the day, Markos is the primary reason I won't go back to that blog.

That said, I think it's super that the feminist women who are still there or have joined up since the exodus are trying to (re)organize, and I wish them all the very best in their endeavor. Hopefully they'll have a positive influence.

by IndyLib on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 10:50:04 PM EST

I agree with you (4.00 / 3)

on so many different levels. I cannot tell you how many times I've walked away from that place thinking, why the hell bother? The powers that be have decided on their way of thinking, and they've decided to marginalize any other way. The politics involved are absolutely dangerous to me -- I suspect we're about equally left -- and that's about far, far more than feminism, though of course feminism is one of the important casualties.

I stay there for a number of reasons, all of them arguable. For one, I like to see what the mainstream conventional wisdom is, so I can try to work through it with friends, and sadly, that's what the place has become IMO. Also, many people start out by finding dkos because it is the most visible -- they're people who often have original and good ideas, and are often quickly cast aside there. Add to that that I think that there's some strange value in saying my usually unpopular and oft-ignored piece -- on the off chance that somebody smart will avoid getting sucked away, and you've got the bulk of why I still bother. I make no guarantees that I won't throw in the towel in light of the massive echo chamber I fear the place is becoming -- as another oldster there, I suspect you share my sense of disappointment that this medium has been allowed on any scale to simply become another piece of the media machine.

Again, I will never blame anybody for never going back.

On this:

I don't think they'll wind up having a positive influence on the larger narrative of the blog, because the larger narrative of the blog is sadly moving on one note by design. I do, however, still have hope that they'll wind up having a positive influence on a subset of readers of the blog. That's worth a lot to me, but then I'm also one stubborn fucker, so maybe I only stop in there out of a need to be the thorn in somebody's side, even occasionally.

I hope the community there devolves somewhat more slowly for my efforts. It's a damned hard call, frankly.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 11:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you (4.00 / 2)

That's worth a lot to me, but then I'm also one stubborn fucker, so maybe I only stop in there out of a need to be the thorn in somebody's side, even occasionally.

heh, as I was stringing together my post I was thinking, "Spit's totally going to talk to me about being mule-headed."

But yeah, big nods to the rest of your post. You know that you & I share a great deal of not just philosophical underpinnings, but analysis of the sociopolitical facts on the ground as well.

imo the upside of the morph to mainstream and devolution of dKos is that it clearly evidences the power beginning to emanate from the 'net as a medium. I think this medium is the future of far more political organizing to come, and we are just seeing the infancy of that yet. And that's encouraging.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think things are probably going to get worse before they get better (re: the general state of the nation), but I think this medium will let progressives have far more influence than any other before it as we move forward. You can already see that happening at the overtly feminist blogs, where more and more folks are washing up on the shores, receptive to hearing about all manners of progressive politics. We may well slide into open fascism before this scaryass ride is over, but the 'net will let us resist and fight back and strategize in ways the folks of the past who didn't have such a beast could not even dream of.

by IndyLib on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 11:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope so (4.00 / 2)

I think this medium is the future of far more political organizing to come, and we are just seeing the infancy of that yet. And that's encouraging.

It is encouraging, and the influx of voices to -- well, outright theoryish blogs is hugely encouraging, too -- there are more real thinkers out there than I thought, and they're finding ways to explore and express themselves earlier than I'd hoped.

I give some begrudging credit to markos, too, for the format of the thing -- but I think that real leftist folk are going to have to learn what they can from the place and then move forward elsewhere, in the long run. Simply twisting the existing media/political narrative isn't good enough, but that seems to be where markos is at. What I think might wind up happening, though, is dkos working as a kind of gateway into other, more philosophy-driven blogs. We'll see.

I wonder frequently what will happen to that place if the democrats win majorities. And what will it do with itself now in a democratic presidential primary, where philosophical questions hit the forefront?

Bumped into both kid oakland and a gilas girl over there today, and it made me sad on a whole lot of levels, thinking back to all our hopes years ago.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 at 11:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope so (4.00 / 2)

None of my speculation about that is very civil, so I'd best not get too deep into it. It all involves rants about corporate power structures and faux liberalism and the failures of centrist-identifying-democrats to see the class wars and culture wars for what they really are, yada yada, I suspect these are similar to rants in which you may also indulge. :) Regardless of whatever happens, I don't think the philosophical questions will get much consideration, but that's because they never really do, and it wouldn't be fair of me to blame either Markos or Democrats for that, heh.

But it's getting late here back east and we've pretty much got family crisis going on here 24/7 (my housemate's mom is gravely ill) plus my health is flagging like it does, so I've got to get to bed. As always, it was groovy to catch up with you. Until next time, then. :)

by IndyLib on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 12:02:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As always (4.00 / 2)

I hope you're doing well. Some of these rants are probably best for the ol' email -- which I keep meaning (with other things) to send -- it's been a weird, fucked up kind of a year so far, so I've been really crappy at that contact thing. Yeah, there are a lot of such rants we could probably co-write.

Sleep well and best of luck with the crises. I'll do my best to catch up again soon. ;)

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 12:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As always (4.00 / 2)

My thanks to both of you, Indylib and Spit, for this thread. I still read dk, and once in a blue moon, make a comment. I stayed a bit after the pie wars, but had a bad interaction with one of the "progressive police", lost my TU status, and being already here, stayed here.

It'll be interesting to see what you can get going over there, Spit. Seems like Meteor Blades is one of the few who can bring up things like the huge threat to Roe v. without being crunched. I'll be horribly bigoted, no doubt, and note that fearless leader is similar to a couple of other Latino males I have worked with who just didn't get women who didn't buy into the machismo culture for the sake of winning. Let's just say that I want all of the folks to stuff envelopes, not just the females.

I am sad to see the young women I work with (doctoral students) - who are mostly Democrats by voting pattern, avoid feminism as somehow tainted, unsavory. And they really talk it up as unnecessary. They will learn, sooner than they think. I'm glad you're giving this a go.I will lurk if I remember. Cross posting here will help.

by Kidspeak on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:45:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As always (4.00 / 2)

young women I work with (doctoral students) - who are mostly Democrats by voting pattern, avoid feminism as somehow tainted, unsavory. And they really talk it up as unnecessary. They will learn, sooner than they think.

Yeah, they will. Probably the hard way. If history's any predictor of the future, a good lot of them will tragically be beaten by a spouse, raped, and/or sexually harassed at work by the time they're 30, and first they'll actually blame the feminists for it, but the ones who can think will soon have that thing that Oprah calls the "light bulb moment" when it all finally comes together for them.

And so it goes. As the wise Scribe always says: ONWARD! :)

by IndyLib on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 10:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you (none / 1)

...they're people who often have original and good ideas, and are often quickly cast aside there. ...I make no guarantees that I won't throw in the towel in light of the massive echo chamber I fear the place is becoming -- as another oldster there, I suspect you share my sense of disappointment that this medium has been allowed on any scale to simply become another piece of the media machine.

That's why I was not unhappy to be kicked off (for calling out a front pager on their lack of backbone addressing the e-voting issue.) They seek to be mainstream, and to me mainstream automatically means willing to compromise the truth. In fact, the comment for which I was banned demonstrated that, in spades.

So I won't be headed over to DK to participate.

That said, I wonder at the value of a "feminist" discussion - I guess I see our values as the same as any progressives. I care about anyone disenfranchised or underfranchised, which includes women, minorities, the physically and mentally challenged, the poor, etc.

I think the main value would be not letting certain dominant male personalities there (several come to mind) stomp all over some of the more sensitive women there. But beyond that - it seems that all people should care about feminist issues, not just women, and limiting the discussion to women is a way of factionalizing, not unifying, our base.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone - I'm justs voicing my own thoughts. If someone good comes from it, my hat will be off to all who participate! :D

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 12:11:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good points (4.00 / 2)

on this:

I guess I see our values as the same as any progressives.

I wish I agreed, honestly -- not that there aren't similar values, but that progressives were by nature fighting for greater equality and justice for all people. But it's just not how it is -- in any "big tent" kind of group, IMO, the focus of the discussion, the whole framework of the topic, is going to wind up being controlled largely by those with the most social power, unless they're very, very conscious and thoughtful about that possibility. I see no sign that the bulk of the progressive movement is, particularly.

But beyond that - it seems that all people should care about feminist issues, not just women, and limiting the discussion to women is a way of factionalizing, not unifying, our base.

Everybody should care about feminist issues. But not everybody does. At all. And IMO there are times for unifying the base, and there are also times for splitting off so that issues important to feminists (or Black activists, or gays and lesbians, or...) don't simply wind up being ignored in the "unity".

Dkos has been a great place to see this effect in action, frankly. Disturbing but useful as an illustration. Are the concerns (rather than simply voting patterns) of Blacks ever really discussed on the front page? Women? Latinos? Anybody else?

As progressives, I think one of the bigger challenges in front of us is finding a way to give voice to the concerns of those who have traditionally been marginalized, while still building unity and understanding that often many of the issues at the core of those concerns are (or should be) considered universal concerns.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 12:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good points (none / 1)

Good points re DK, Spit. Now - the difference left is that I don't see DK as a progressive site. I see it as a site where people are free not to counter DK and other intimates, where the discussion is narrowly focused to getting specific people elected. The broader discussions, some of them excellent, are usually ruined by the thought police that come barrelling through.

So I agree completely re your assessment. I guess I just don't think the site is very progressive. Yes - key topics like Labor, women, etc. get discussed in diaries, but those don't get recommended much or front-paged, for the most part.

I long to know more about union history, myself. I think unionization is the only thing that will help reclaim America for Americans. I wish there were more diaries on that topic, now that you mention it! I'm getting hungry now, darn it!

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 06:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you (none / 1)

I should note that the discussion is NOT limited to women. Just focusing on women's issues.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 12:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Off to bed myself (none / 1)

but will check back in the a.m. for any comments, complaints, general discussion.

Regarding the time of posting of the series, wanted to clarify that it's Thursdays between 8 and 10 EST. Thanks to all for interest and/or comments.

by Spit (spit36@gmx.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:52:54 AM EST

Yep. Onward. (none / 1)

Because, what's the alternative? Going backward? Trust me, NOT a good move. Stand still? Ignore? Deny? Stay willfully distracted, as the right wing covertly strips us back down to aprons draped over pregnant bellies? This is am illusionary option: it can only lead "backward." So it's ONward or backward. Period.

This diary was the first thing that motivated to go back to kos in many many moons, just to recommed this incredible young gals diary. I did not stay to comment. This is because I have come to the absolute end of my tolerance for nasty, willful, sexist ignorance, and I was afraid to read too many comments for fear to getting that nasty shit all over me again. Then I'd get yanked out of my chosen serentity and have to kill somebody..which raises havoc with my buddha-like nature.

Besides I see there are plenty of powerful young women to take my place on the front lines, and I see more and more finding thier voices now. Plus, I have more than amply replaced myself with four more powerful females: two powerful daughters,and two powerful grandaughters, who will be here carrying on long after I've shuffled off to wherever the hell the next adventure is!

Good work, gals! (and the guys who have wised up and joined you!) If you ever feel a strange warm sensation at your back..that's me, and all of us uppity old bra burning womens libbers!

ONward!

by scribe (scribe40@comcast.net) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 11:15:52 AM EST

Pardon the plug -- but feminists at daily kos love you! | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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