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How come most of the Israeli "leftists" supported the 2nd Lebanon War?

by Tammy
Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 09:43:22 AM EST

The 2nd Lebanon war began 36 days ago after the abduction of 2 soldiers, the killing of another 3 and rockets attack on some northern populated areasin Israel, all those actions committed by Hizballa warriers.
The response of the Israeli government was declaration of war.

Israel is historically divided into 2 main political blocks: the right wing identified with support of the settlements in Judea and Sameria, and support of aggressive policy against the Palestinians and the left wing identified with supporting territorial waiving and define itself as the "peace camp". (in the last few years this division changed and another block has emerged - the "Center").

Usually, acts of aggression made by the army against our neighbors were condemned by the "peace camp", this time however, about 90% of the population supported the acts of the government in general and believed that Israel is justified in it's retaliation on Lebanon and the Hizballa.
Amongst the supporters of the justification of this war were many important humanists who are considered to be part of the "peace camp", among others: Amos Oz, A.B. Yehoshua and David Grossman who justified the war (but on later stage urged the government not to expand the scope of the war), Yehosua Sobol, Yoram Kanyuk, and even young artists like Aviv Gefen a well known anti - institutional singer songwriter.

I believe that it raises a simple question: how come people who identify themselves as peace people, who support negotiations with the Palestinians, who want to withdraw from the 1967 occupied territories - how come those people supported this war?

I believe the answer is that this time the people in Israel felt that the Hizballa attack had no justification what so ever, and listened to Nassralah when he said that his ultimate goal is to destroy Israel.
Since Lebanon has no territorial dispute with Israel after the unilateral withdraw of the Israeli army forces from south Lebanon on 2000, any attack on Israel from Lebanon was perceived as a "causus belli".

That's in addition to the fact that Lebanon didn't follow the 1559 UN resolution that demanded the disarm of Hizballa and the deployment of the Lebanese army in the area of south Lebanon.

The Israelis who see Hizballa as an extension of Iran are very concerned with the voices coming from Tehran. The fact that the Iranian president keeps talking about the need to destroy Israel and the fact that Iran is developing nuclear weapon.
All those facts made the Israeli people very agitated and naturally they see Hizballa as the front line of the confrontation with Iran.

Most of the people in Israel believe they have no partner for negotiation, both Nassralah and Ahmadinijad made very clear statements about their goal - to destroy Israel, so most of the Israeli believe that we have no one to talk to, therefore military reaction was the only option.

In future posts, I'll discuss the Israeli's army air strikes on Lebanon and the situation in Israel after the cease fire began....

How come most of the Israeli "leftists" supported the 2nd Lebanon War? | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Sincerely Appreciated (4.00 / 2)

.
Thanks for your insight from Israel!

Once again, welcome to BooMan! The greatest site to discuss and listen to contrarian views on politics.

Welcome Wagon Invitation

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

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by Oui on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 10:13:31 AM EST

Re: How come most (4.00 / 3)

This helps explain why the actions were supported, but it still does not explain why the actions made any sense.

First of all, as has been documented by Sy Hersh, the campaign against Lebanon has been planned and coordinated for months with Washington and merely awaited the proper provovation.

It is best not to react like one of Pavlov's dogs when the neo-cons set their plans in motion.

Second of all, I know that the rhetoric of Nasrallah and Ahmadinejad is very disturbing and I know that there is not much point in trying to negotiate with them. I also know that it is not an acceptable situation to have an armed militia on your border that occassionally sends out rockets at civilian targets and does cross-border raids.

But it never pays to enable the neo-cons. Do you really believe that the brightest minds in the Israeli and American government thought that bombing Beirut and infrastructure would unite the Sunnis and Christians and Druze against Hizbollah? Of course not. This is not some wild-eyed miscalculation. No one is that stupid except, perhaps, our President.

There is only one way to marginalize Iran and Hizbollah, and that is to make peace with Syria. Making peace with Syria isn't going to be easy, and it will require some hard sacrifices. Syria doesn't deserve the concessions that will be required. But once Israel has peace with Syria, it will be reconciled to all its immediate neighbors.

Iraq is broken, America basically has veto power over the use of the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Saudi armies. Lebanon has no effective military, and Hizbollah requires resupply from Syria.

Syria cannot invade Israel, especially alone, because they have no replacement parts.

It is really not that hard to figure out. Concessions in land will take the steam out of terrorism. It will take the appeal out of martyrdom operations. And it will take the heat of international pressure of Israel and put it all squarely on those that continue to pursue violence.

American can assure Israel's security with a mutual defense pact if and when Israel concedes the settlements.

This is the only way forward.

The other way involves unceasing violence and as the venture into Lebanon proved, no assurance of victory.

by BooMan on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 11:42:28 AM EST

BooMan for State! (4.00 / 3)

.
Great comment Martin!

We could suggest some bloggers here in the community who would have a policy that at least makes more sense to the American 'no-sense' voter.

PS On a less serious note, say hi to a new member from IL.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

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by Oui on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 11:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How come most (none / 0)

First of all I enjoyed reading your comment, and I generally agree with you.

I don't know if America and Israel planned the attack and just waited to a "causus belli" but it's not really important.

I agree that basically peace agreements are the best solution for the area, and I'm aware that Israel will have to make concessions.
However, unlike you, I believe that right now it's impossible to achieve peace agreement either with the Syrians or with the Palestinians.
The reason is, that as far as I see, both the Syrian and the Palestinian governments believe that Israel is on the edge of collapse.
The unilateral steps taken by Israel- the withdrawal from south Lebanon on 2000 and the withdrawal from the Gaza strip last summer were misinterpreted by them.
They believe it demonstrates Israel weakness.

I think that the Israeli government believed that If Israel will demonstrate it's strength it would make both the Syrians and the Palestinians understand that they won't achieve their goals by violence, and therefore they will have a motivation to negotiate with Israel and reach a peace agreement.

Unfortunately, it seems that Israel failed to achieve these objectives, and I'm very sorry for that.

There was another rationale to Israel actions, and that was the destruction of Hizballa infrastructures. Hizballa is not only a militia, it's an organization with headquarters located in the Dahya quarter in Beirut.
Israel believed that if we'll succeed to ruin the organizational infrastructure plus the fighting with the armed warriors it would lead to the destruction of the Hizballa.

I don't know what will be the political consequences of this war, but I'm sure that unless the international community will make it clear for the Hizballa, Iran, Syria and the Palestinians that the conflict in the Middle East should be resolved in agreements and not in firing missiles on civilians or calling for the destruction of Israel, this area will soon be a war zone again.

Unfortunately, I'm not optimistic.

by Tammy (neu75@hotmail.co.il) on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 02:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shebaa Farms (none / 1)

Lebanon believes it has a territorial dispute with Israel to this day. There is also the outstanding issue of some Lebanese prisoners that israel had previously said it would release and then didnt. Hezbollah use the Shebaa Farms as their rationale to remain armed. Hezbollah also staed previously that it would have to capture some Israeli prisoners to exchange for the Lebanese ones after they were not released. It had always been standard practice in the pst to conduct prisoner exchanges. They later did capture the 2 soldiers. The rest is history.
Maybe the Shebaa Farms and the Lebanese prisoners are not recognized to be contentious issues in Israel but they are in Lebanon.

by observer393 on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 09:58:08 AM EST

Re: Shebaa Farms (none / 1)

I think your comment emphasises the problematic nature of the unilateral withdrawal Israel carried out in 2000 (and any subsequent unilateral measures taken).

As you probably know, the Lebanese Hizballah militia is the one who refused to negotiate a compromise with Israel, leaving Israel with two options: to continue occupying Southern Lebanon, or to withdraw unilaterally from there with no peace agreement.

Israel in a rare gesture of peace, withdrew from Lebanon with no guarantees of quiet or peace on its northern border.

The U.N. acknowledged that Israel's withdrawl from Lebanon completed its obligations under U.N. Resolution 425, effectively ending its occupation of Southern Lebanon.

Regardless of the reasons why Israel chose not to withdraw from the Shebaa Farms, it must be recognised that unilateral steps cannot be negotiable as the other side refuses to talk. There can be no compromises when there is no one to compromise with.

The Arab response to Israel's unilateral steps has consistantly been more violence and more attacks, both on the northern border and in the south.

The lack of any agreement demonstrates that there is no interest in creating in creating a peaceful middle east. This is the heart of the problem and not the Shebaa Farms or Lebanese prisoners...Had there been a desire to create a true peace, these issues could have been resolved.

by lmissdt on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 01:13:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shebaa Farms (4.00 / 4)

oh, those kind-hearted and peaceful Israelis! How wonderful, magnanimous ... how white of them.

They have ruthlesslessly grabbed land and water from the Palestinians. They launched an occupation of Lebanon, held it for many years, used their proxy Christian militia as death squads, STILL cling to lands in contravention to agreement and numerous UN resolutions, have enacted repeated collective punishment of civilians in contravention of the Rules of Warfare. They practice targeted assasinations. They hold numerous political prisoners, including women and children. They enforce a form of aparteid within their own borders. They are a nuclear power holding an arsenal built in contravention of non-proliferation agreements. They have lied, stolen and killed their own leaders rather than make peace. They elevate ruthless monsters and former terrorists like Sharon to their highest offices and look the other way as he lines his pockets with bloodsoaked money.

Please, spare me. Israel flaunts international law with impunity, and what little sympathy they deserved as a surrounded people has been degraded by generations of thuggish, lawless, racist behavior.

Shabaa farms, the Heights, the West Bank, illegal settlements, the new Berlin Wall, evil echoes of the very kind of slums and abuse they once suffered. The great-grandchildren of a victimized people now wear the jackboots. They are now the abusers, and please spare me talk of how damned saintly they are. Impoverished, hopeless people are only going to take so much before they strike back in any way they can. The Israelis have sown the seeds of their own destruction, and they have only themselves, and racist and imperialistic Americans, to blame.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 02:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you met the blood thirsty Israelis in person?

For some reason, I tend to think not. After all, there's not a nation on earth that would tolerate the kind of atrocities the arabs have been inflicting on Israeli civilians since the day their state was created.

From kidnapping men, women and children, to blowing up buses and crowded markets, the arabs have stopped at nothing in their fight against Israel.

And I'm sure this will surprise you, but it's been going on since 1948, not 1967. So with all do respect, it has nothing to do with "stealing palestinian lands" or "occupying lebanon".

It has to do with the Arabs desire to wipe the Jewish entity off the map. Plain and simple.

And as for your comments about Israel sowing the seeds of it's own destruction, I find those comments particularly disgusting.

Would you blame a rape victim for attacking her assailant? If you have any decency, I'm sure you'd call it self-defense.

The same applies to Israel. In all of it's years, Israel has never started a war with the Arabs. It has always been the other way around.

Even in the current conflict, it is the Arabs that crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

So please spare me the "poor Palestinians" tirade. They chose their corrupt leadership who continue in the path of misery and death.

by lmissdt on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 10:27:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shebaa Farms (none / 1)

I know all of that. 15 years ago I was much more willing to see it as a two-sided problem.

Not any more. They've moved past protecting themselves onto committing repeated crimes.

For every one Israeli killed, they take out a score of people. I'm no longer buying the "victim" thing.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 11:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jimmy Carter on ME Peace (none / 0)

On America's role in achieving peace in the Middle East:

«« click for Der Spiegel interview

CARTER: Yes, as a matter of fact as you know ever since Israel has been a nation the United States has provided the leadership. Every president down to the ages has done this in a fairly balanced way, including George Bush senior, Gerald Ford, and others including myself and Bill Clinton. This administration has not attempted at all in the last six years to negotiate or attempt to negotiate a settlement between Israel and any of its neighbors or the Palestinians.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

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by Oui on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 04:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

It is not only Israel who disputes the Lebanese claim to Shebaa Farms. The UN also have doubts about the legitimacy of the Lebanese claim, yes even Syria disputed the claim up until recently and the reason for their u-turn, I suspect, is of a more tactical and strategical nature than out of sincerity.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 01:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The UN recognize the farms as Syrian but (none / 1)

Syria says it gave the land to Lebanon.
Whatever, they do not belong to Israel but neither do the Golan Heights or the West Bank, so we probably have a long term intractable problem.

by observer393 on Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 11:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How come (none / 1)

Interestingly, members of the "peace camp" are now supporting the cease fire, in part, due to an event covered by a recommended diary.

Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 11:26:18 AM EST

Re: How come (none / 0)

True, these people urged the government not to expand the invasion into Lebanon and to accept the cease fire agreement, however it is important to say that they have justified the war although they might have disputed the way the war was conducted.

by Tammy (neu75@hotmail.co.il) on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 02:48:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Peace Camp Writers (none / 1)

David Grossman gave a joint news conference with fellow writers Amos Oz and A B Yehoshua, calling on the government to stop fighting. The group urged Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to seek a diplomatic solution.

David Grossman, 52, slight and soft-spoken, is often described as the anguished conscience of Israel. He is the author of best-selling novels including as "The Smile of the Lamb" and "See Under: LOVE" and the book-length political treatise "The Yellow Wind," about Israel's occupation of the West Bank.

≈ Cross-posted from my diary --
Uri Grossman, Son 'Peace Now' Activist Killed in Lebanon ≈

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY

by Oui on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 11:42:47 AM EST

the political game we will now see (none / 1)

is the left and center in Israel claiming a great Israeli victory and supporting the ceasefire while mentioning the conditions being set for settling the middle east problems. The left and center will want to move on to another agenda.
On the other hand the right will claim disastrous strategies, defeat etc as they aim to grab power on the back of disappointment by a lot of the Israeli public. Then they can unleash more adventures.
How this will play out in Israel will be interesting, and will potentially be very dangerous for the region. It has been said that Netanyahu is a good at filling his bucket with ammunition, but also very good at throwing it all away with no gain. Let's actually hope this reamins true as it could all end in catastrophe.

by observer393 on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 11:49:16 PM EST

How come most of the Israeli "leftists" supported the 2nd Lebanon War? | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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