Booman Tribune

Thoughts on Iran

by BooMan
Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:06:47 PM EST

I have mixed emotions about Iran. Iran has been a de facto enemy of the United States ever since Ayatollah Khomeini sanctioned the kidnapping of American hostages that were held for 444 days. They fought a proxy war with us throughout the eighties. Many of the stars at Langley, indicating CIA officers killed in the line of duty, were killed by Iran. Their Council of Guardians, who control the government, armed forces, and intelligence agencies, are very bad guys. Imagine a Council of Guardians led by Tim LeHay, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson, that could veto any legislation as un-Christian, and even deny liberal Christians the right to run for office. Some of their leaders do subscribe to an eschatological, apocolyptic world view, similar to the Rapture crowd here at home. And they are no friends of Israel and continue to make bellicose insinuations against peace.

However, having said all that, things are not as bad as they can be painted to seem. I doubt Pat Robertson is really a believing Christian at all. I assume he thinks Christians are idiots with deep pockets. The same is probably true of George W. Bush, and pretty much any charlatan that has achieved riches and power through the promotion of 19th Century style religion. Therefore, I don't think the Iranian leadership has any interest in catapulting armageddon. But you never know.

What I do know is that Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon in not a happy prospect. In fact, it is not a happy prospect for any nation to obtain a nuclear weapon. I am not happy that Pakistan and North Korea have reached a nuclear capability. It's a terrible threat to life on earth.

The question is, though, what are we willing to do about it? With Iran, we have pursued a reasonable path with the Europeans, in consultation with the Russians and the IAEA. Iran has thumbed their nose at us. It's another example of how badly Bush has weakened America. I do not enjoy seeing us disrespected in this way. And I do expect Bush to pursue some form of sanctions, if for nothing else, to save face.

However, while Bush has been playing checkers, the Iranians have been playing chess. As we can see from the following:

In addition, the sanctions effort may also be hampered by a report to be issued Thursday by the International Atomic Energy Agency, in which inspectors will describe only slow progress by Iran in enriching uranium.

The report, according to diplomats familiar with its contents, will describe how Iran has resumed producing small amounts of enriched uranium since temporarily stopping in the spring, but has not increased the rate of production.

Furthermore, the report is expected to say that the purity of the uranium enrichment would not be high enough for use in nuclear weapons, but only for power plants. Iran has long insisted that its program is for peaceful purposes only.

This doesn't tell us anything about what Iran intends to do down the line, but it shows they are outwitting our President. Bush is going to start out calling for "an embargo on the sale of nuclear-related goods to Iran...the freezing of overseas assets and a ban on travel for Iranian officials directly involved in the nuclear program." He might not get even that.

Things are set up just as they were for the last midterm elections. Bush will go before the United Nations and tell them why a nuclear Iran is an unacceptable threat to world peace. He will essentially say, "This guy wants a nuke and he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Anyone who thinks he should have a nuke is weak on defense."

The argument will be quite compelling and loudly supported at home by the traditional neo-conservatives like Cheney and Rumsfled, and by the right-wing media like Fox News, the Washington Times, and the New York Post, by the National Review Online types, and even by Democrats like Ed Koch, Alan Dershowitz, and Chuck Schumer.

The counterargument is difficult to make. It's impossible to make it in a 15 second blurb or commercial. The easiest thing to say is "So, what to plan to do about it?"

Counterprolferation is a worthy goal and it would be nice if China and Russia would back up the rest of the Security Council when they try to enforce counterproliferation through peaceful means. In the end, I think that would make war less likely as well as work as an effective deterrent. But that is not the situation we find ourselves in.

Instead, Iran has been careful to cultivate economic and diplomatic relations with Russia and China, while tying down our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. They've also been careful to claim they only have civilian intentions for their nuclear program. They have limited their enrichment to what would be useful for civilian purposes. Their only weak point?

The mystery has been deepened by Iran’s recent restrictions on where international inspectors can roam, and its refusal to allow them to see facilities that Iran has not declared to be related to its nuclear program.

The atomic agency’s report is also expected to detail questions that Iran has failed to answer about suspected nuclear activities that it has declined to show to international inspectors.

Many liberals question what right the United States or the Security Council has to dictate who has nuclear weapons, or why it is okay for Israel to have them and not for Iran. The answer to that lies in power politics and the inherent interest the international community has in non-proliferation. There is a reason that Iran is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and also a reason why Israel is not. Until recently, those decisions reflected the self-interests of Iran and Israel. However, things have changed for Iran.

We are now occupying their left and right flank and building bases on their north flank in Azerbaijan. We are openly talking about regime change and hinting at air strikes, possibly involving tactical nuclear weapons. They feel threatened because they are threatened.

And the question for the United States is "what are we going to do about this?" We've talked a lot of smack but it doesn't appear that we can back any of it up. We cannot get the UN Security Council to act in a unified way to deter Iran. We can't get them to make any concessions. We can't get them to accept a deal. We don't have the military strength to invade or effect regime change. We don't know where all the targets are should we want to destroy their nuclear program from the air. And we are reliant on the good will of Iran sympathizing Shi'a in Iraq for the security of our supply lines there.

At some point it should occur to people just how badly Bush has undermined American power. In the end, that might not be such a bad thing if it teaches us to have more humility and more faith in international organizations and collective security. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear either party, nor the intelligentsia, have come to terms with the extent of Bush's failure or the likely consequences.

Bush intends to try a repeat of 2002. He will go to the UN and cry wolf. The UN, this time, will flatly reject his cries. And then he will run on his failure, calling it strength, and daring Democrats to admit America is powerless to overcome his failure and get Iran to back down.

It is going to be ugly.



Display:
Boo, I have mixed feelings about Iran also, but then I remember that it was the Bush administration that ignored their peace offering in the Summer of 2003 when a deal could have been struck that would have helped the security of Israel and the US.  Everything was on the table then: the nuke program, assistance against Al Qaeda (which is a Sunni group after all), reining in Hezbollah, etc.

After I remember that, all I can think of is that our leaders are not only criminals, but they are criminally stupid as well.  

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:47:05 PM EST
well said Steven.

And all of this talk about the US and Iran and no mention of installing the Shah and how we earned their hatred with that one. Does anyone not think that half the population still remembers that regime and the rest have been told the stories endlessly, of the torture that was done by us indirectly by 'our boy' that we placed there?

Then we need to also mention that Iran was moving toward ousting those we don't like in power until Bush played right into those hands by his elective war on Iraq.

America fucks up repeated with Iran and we're about to do it yet again.

by wilfred on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm more than half convinced that our opposition to Iran during the runup to the Iranian elections was designed to assist the more radical candidates at the expense of the more moderate.  Just as bin Laden's October surprise allegedly helped Bush, the Bush admin's statements about the lousy election Iran was holding benefited Ahmanejehad.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt
by Steven D on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:19:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iran is within it's rights as a sovereign nation and signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Agreement to enrich uranium for civilian use. NO ONE has been able to show that they've been doing anything BUT that. They have complied w/ the required inspection regimes. Note that this is so while two of the US' allies in the region, Israel & Pakistan, both refuse proper inspections, are both notorious proliferators of nuclear technology and are both NON signers to the Non-Proliferation Agreement.

Quit swallowing the propaganda Booman & friends. It's not good for you. I can't believe how many people are falling for the same kinds of lies and BS that got us into the Iraq debacle. Of course, coming from people who support the war pigs running the "leadership" of the Democratic Party in Congress, I guess I shouldn't be suprised. Will it take millions of deaths due to the blast effects and firestorms from Bush's nuking of Iran before you wake up?

Oh, and go Hass, well done, though confronting those brainwashed by a generation or more of Military-Industrial complex driven propaganda with FACTS is much akin to banging your head against the wall. Americans are, if nothing else, remarkably prone to fantastical thinking and the simple-minded submission to voices of what passes for authority in this country. Good on you for making the attempt.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:00:39 PM EST
Let me ask you a rhetorical question.  If you knew at the 100% level that supporting current Iranian political administrations and views would prevent you from ever winning an American election, would that fact alone change your strategy.  I'm curious about how inevitable your desire for losing American elections really is!
by NG on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 08:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I refuse to bow to fake either/or's ...

I have more faith in people than the rest of you do, apparently. I have faith that we'd rather act like civilized members of the world community than superstitious and bigoted bullies acting out of fear. Only 50 years ago the American electorate was able to back more rational policies when we actually weren't led by corporate war-mongering hacks, but rather by well-educated statesmen.

I agree w/ the Bushies on one thing ... we create our futures. We need to start making better futures for ourselves.

"Whenever a Voice of Moderation addresses liberals, its sole purpose is to stomp out any real sign of life." - James Wolcott

by Madman in the Marketplace on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 10:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good comment & one that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Just because your name has "Madman" in it, one should never assume a lack of critical thought on your part. Nice of you to speak well of Hass also. I very much agree with his take & knowledge of the situation.

The difference between theists and atheists is that the atheists don't set the theists on fire for refusing to agree with them.
by KNUCKLEHEAD on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 09:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He may try but the citizens are no longer listening. Problem is the likes of The Hill, The Boxer Short, Balding Biden, 'Suckup Schumer' and Ramit Emmanuel are not listening either. They are lost in their little game of political musical chairs never getting their heads out of their asses long enough to realise:

'We got trouble. Yes, we got trouble right here in River City.'

Global warming...

Hurricane fill-in-the-blank....

Collapse of our military...

But...

As long as we do not, in fact, bomb Iran there is hope for the future. I take exception to you analysis of how 'bad' Iran is however. Their interests are not our interests. Contrary to what The Idiot would have you believe however that does NOT make the 'evil'. It makes them hard to talk to.

That's why diplomacy was invented. Something The Idiot and Madame SuperTanker have no grasp of.

Don't buy into any NeoCon talking points.

It's not smart.

"Dynamite...that's the stuff."

by Nestor Makhnow (oakland@drinkingliberally.org/) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:20:52 PM EST
Indeed.  To start a discussion of Iran with the hostage period is absurd. That may indeed be when Americans started paying attention, but for those actually living in Iran, the perspective is much different. If one is unwilling to recognize that Iran was a WRITTEN history that is over 5000 years old, and was the center of science and culture when Europe was in the dark ages, at least start with the invasion of Iran by Britain and USSR during WWII. These two countries (and USSR) have been meddling in Iranian internal affairs for 200 years. And at LEAST make some reference to Shah Pahlavi, and the pro-democracy movement of Prime Minister Dr. Mossadegh, and the CIA coup (Operation Ajax) that assisted the British Intelligence Service in ousting Mossadegh. This was reported on by James Risen in the NY Times in 2000 [http://tinyurl.com/3jg88], and the NY TIMES carries links to the original CIA docs.
In reading the NY Times article you will discover that the coup was led by "Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the father of the Desert Storm commander". (Again upon close examination of Desrt Storm one will discover that  it appears Saddam was snookered by the U.S. in invading Kuwait, and that the evidence for Saudi Arabia calling on U.S. troops for help was likely based on false satelite photos, hand delivered by Powell and Cheney.
http://tinyurl.com/lmhsj for the Cristian Science Monitor story.

One might also read the wikipedia entry on Mossadegh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh

In any case, seeing the Iranians as the problem is like seeing the Confederate States of America or South Africa as still being justified to hang on to their vision of using force to exploit people and extract resources. We will get no where as a Nation until we acknowledge, recognize, and atone for our past despicable behavior that has given rise to the legitimate grievances that breed terrorists.

It is not that the Muslims hate out freedom. Quite the opposite. They are tired of the hypocrisy of U.S. and Britain in denying them the freedom, democracy,. and rights to decide their own destiny.

So lets get out of this fantasy world folks, and get a grip on reality.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

by erichwwk (* erichwwk at gmail.org) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgot to include a reference to Osama. Osama offered (and felt he had proven he could by helping to oust the Russians in Afghanistan) to defend Saudi Arabia aginst Saddam before "Dessert Storm", and resented Faid selecting the U.S. instead. Of course, Ossama may not have been aware the the King was complicent with the U.S. in sending the Mujaheddin to Afghanistan, lest they continue pressure on him to grant more democracy in Saudi Arabia. And we wonder why Ossama is PISSED, and quibble over whether or not his grievances are legitimate???

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire
by erichwwk (* erichwwk at gmail.org) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's their mullahs that are 'bad'.  The Persian people are wonderful and they deserve a government without a Council of Guardians layered on top.  But that should be their problem, not ours.
by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't we all deserve a government that reflects the goodness in the populace.

It's not. This is a use of language problem. Why is it that we can't write in our comments "the fundamentalist-run government of Iran" rather than "Iran," or "the neocon-run government of the US" instead of the "US?"

Expediency.

I feel and I don't feel responsible for the actions of the government in Washington. I'm propagandized by the Center and the Left to believe I am a part of this governing process because I can change things if I just put my nose to the grindstone of involvement in the political process, but the reality is that I'm a person with a purpose in life, and I can't make a dime as a political activist if I'm going to be effective. In other words, I have to work for a living at my chosen profession. I am not a part of my governance because I spend my waking hours struggling through the economy of this country.

Iran, Iran, Iran. What about the people of Iran? Thanks Booman for adding that dimension, reminding us it's about the people, not just the juvenile bullies that crave leadership.

Share. Share resources, share delight, share burdens, share the healing. Sharing will bring us back from mass suicide. www.share-international.org

by Isis on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 09:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"They fought a proxy war with us throughout the eighties"

You're sorta forgetting the  facts here, l'il pilgrim. Saddam Hussien was the US proxy. We were fighting them - and we were giving Saddam chemical weapons whilst Rumsfeld was pumping his hand.

"What I do know is that Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon"

Is this something you "know" or merely something you "believe" or "assume"? There's a world of difference, because even the IAEA inspectors say they don't "know" this, and even US intelligence reports to Congress say they don't "know" this either.

Also, there's no "mystery" about why Iran won't allow inspectors to go to places that they legally have no authorization to go - remember, Iran allowed more-than-required inspections for 2 years, and then pulled back from that after such cooperation got them nothing in return.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:36:03 PM EST
Once again, give me any proof that we gave Saddam chemical weapons.  I've never seen any.  We gave him satellite intelligence.  We gave him some arms, but not much.  And we gave Iran arms too.  Of course, Iran had an all-American military so they could not have fought at all without our spare parts.  That's a whole other untold story.  

But, yes, we were rooting Saddam on and given him help.  But the real proxy war went on in Lebanon.  

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some links:

Common Dreams

Guardian

Here's the Money quote for mec from the Guardian story:

Howard Teicher, an Iraq specialist in the Reagan White House, testified in a 1995 affidavit that the then CIA director, William Casey, used a Chilean firm, Cardoen, to send cluster bombs to use against Iran's "human wave" attacks.

A 1994 congressional inquiry also found that dozens of biological agents, including various strains of anthrax, had been shipped to Iraq by US companies, under licence from the commerce department.

Furthermore, in 1988, the Dow Chemical company sold $1.5m-worth (£930,000) of pesticides to Iraq despite suspicions they would be used for chemical warfare.

We may not have handed ready made US Governemnt certified Chemical munitions to Saddam, but we made it easy for him to acquire the means to build the ones he did use.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, let's look at that.

Reagan signs an E.O. that we should do whatever is 'necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war'.  So we start giving them intelligence on Iranian troop movements and arrange for cluster bombs to be delivered so Iraq can deal with Iran's human wave (child) attacks.  

We are aware that they are using some chemical weapons but we don't block a big shipment of pesticides that could be converted for that purpose (in the last year of the war), and we ship them some biological samples, including Anthrax (which would be almost useless in a munition).  

That is evidence that the Reagan administration was indifferent to the use of chemical weapons, not evidence that we provided Iraq with his weapons.

As the article states, the Germans and Brits supplied the bulk of his non-Soviet weapons.  I am not a big fan of our decision to take sides in the Iran-Iraq war, but I can understand why we did not want Iran to defeat Iraq.  In fact, I don't understand why this administration didn't use the same consideration to decline to hand power to the Shi'a by toppling Saddam and setting up a 'democracy'.  

As for the 2003 proposal, do you have a good link for the details on that?

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You said: "and we ship them some biological samples, including Anthrax (which would be almost useless in a munition). "

Actually, according to the Congressional Investigations by Riegle and Gonzales, the Anthrax was weapons-grade and was in fact used in Saddam's weapons program. SO why were we handing out anthrax to Saddam? Was there a sudden anthrax-shortage?

You said: "As the article states, the Germans and Brits supplied the bulk of his non-Soviet weapons"

 We don't have to have handing him US-made weapons to be guilty of arming him - don't resort to sophistry and denial. When we weren't arming him directly, we financed his purchases & we encouraged others to sell the stuff to him. Read Teicher's affidavit (which incidentally was later sealed by the Reagan administration.)

You said: "but I can understand why we did not want Iran to defeat Iraq."

Considering that IRaq started the war this is a ridiculous statement. So you're saying it was OK to be complicit in mass murder as long as it served our interests? Do other countries get to exercise that excuse too, or just the US?

As for the 2003 peace proposal see Gareth Porter's Burnt Offerings article the The American Prospect:
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=11539

Note that Iran has made repeated efforts and compromise offers on the nuclear issue which have been dismissed without any consideration by the US:


"[N]ow we know, thanks to documents posted by the Arms Control Association on its website that contrary to the usual rightwing propaganda, that Iran has no serious intent of negotiating over its nuclear program, Iran has devised at least five proposals which included provisions designed to assure the international community that its nuclear activities are exclusively for peaceful purposes, rather than nuclear weapons (See: http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Iran_Nuclear_Proposals.asp ) " .

SOURCE: David Isenberg, Preparation of the Iranian Battlefield: http://blog.psaonline.org/2006/08/18/preparation-of-the-iranian-battlefield

And also see this:


Since August 2004, Iran has made eight far-reaching proposals. What's more, Iran throughout this period adopted extensive and costly confidence- building measures, including a voluntary suspension of its rightful enrichment activities for two years, to ensure the success of negotiations.

Over the course of negotiations, Iran volunteered to do the following within a balanced package:

1- Present the new atomic agency protocol on intrusive inspections to the Parliament for ratification, and to continue to put it in place pending ratification;

2- Permit the continuous on-site presence of IAEA inspectors at conversion and enrichment facilities;

3- Introduce legislation to permanently ban the development, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons;

4- Cooperate on export controls to prevent unauthorized access to nuclear material;

5- Refrain from reprocessing or producing plutonium;

6- Limit the enrichment of nuclear materials so that they are suitable for energy production but not for weaponry;

7- Immediately convert all enriched uranium to fuel rods, thereby precluding the possibility of further enrichment;

8- Limit the enrichment program to meet the contingency fuel requirements of Iran's power reactors and future light-water reactors;

9- Begin putting in place the least contentious aspects of the enrichment program, like research and development, in order to assure the world of our intentions;

10- Accept foreign partners, both public and private, in our uranium enrichment program.

11- Iran has recently suggested the establishment of regional consortiums on fuel-cycle development that would be jointly owned and operated by countries possessing the technology and placed under atomic agency safeguards.


SOURCE: We in Iran don't need this quarrel - Int'l Herald Tribune op/ed by Javad Zarif, Iranian ambassador to UN - http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/05/opinion/edzarif.php
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are really a sucker for Iranian propaganda while you have a great nose for American.  

Within a 'balanced package' is a key qualifier there.  If you think Iran is truthful in not seeking to obtain a nuclear bomb that is your right and your judgment.  I do not believe it for a minute.  

That, however, doesn't mean we should and even can do anything about it that won't just make matters worse.  That is the point of this article.

Why it would be ridiculous for us to hope one side of a war does not lose is not clear to me.  The fact of the matter is that we probably encouraged Saddam to invade Iran and hoped that it would lead to the end of the Shi'a revolution there.  I haven't defended that decision and it certainly didn't work out very well.  

You said we were giving Saddam chemical weapons.  I said I saw no proof of that.  I never said we didn't give him other conventional weapons or intelligence with which to use chemical weapons.  I never said we didn't know he was using chemical weapons.  

And none of this has much relevance anyway.  This diary is about how Bush has failed to get Iran to come to the table on his terms, that he has failed to get the UN to go along, and that he does not have the wherewithal to do shit about it.  And he is going to use his weakness to bash Democrats that suggest the truth, which is that we cannot prevent Iran from getting the weapons if they want them because we have lost the good will of the world and we don't have the troops.

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can 'believe' whatever you want - some people 'believe' in UFOs and Bigfoot.

The fact is that Iran's proposals match the same proposals that was made by a commission of the IAEA itelf:


"While defending Iran's sovereign right to produce nuclear power using indigenously enriched uranium, and enumerating the reasons why Iran cannot rely on promises of foreign-supplied reactor fuel to power its economy, [Ahmadinejad] proposed to operate Iran's enrichment programme as joint ventures with private and public sector firms from other countries, to ensure that the programme remained transparent and could not be secretly diverted for military purposes. This was no small offer. It closely resembled a proposal previously put to the IAEA by a committee of experts looking into the risk that nuclear technology developed for peaceful purposes might be diverted to non-peaceful uses (See: Bruno Pellaud, "Nuclear fuel cycle: which way forward for multilateral approaches?", IAEA Bulletin Online, vol 46, no 2, 2004.)

SOURCE: Iran needs nuclear energy, not weapons
Le Monde Diplomatique November 2005
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Wv7d_FdiMH0J:mondediplo.com/2005/11/02iran
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boo it was revealed by Laurence Wilkerson initially.

Here's a good summary from American Prospect

In the spring of 2003, the Islamic Republic of Iran not only proposed to negotiate with the Bush administration on its nuclear program and its support for terrorists but also offered concrete concessions that went very far toward meeting U.S. concerns.

[...]

As the United States was beginning its military occupation of Iraq in April, the Iranians were at work on a bold and concrete proposal to negotiate with the United States on the full range of issues in the U.S.-Iran conflict. Iran's then-ambassador to France, Sadegh Kharrazi, the nephew of then-Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi, drafted the document, which was approved by the highest authorities in the Iranian system, including the Supreme National Security Council and Supreme Leader Khamenei himself, according to a letter accompanying the document from the Swiss ambassador in Tehran, Tim Guldimann, who served as an intermediary. Parsi says senior Iranian national security officials confirmed in interviews in August 2004 that Khamenei was "directly involved in the document."

The proposal, a copy of which is in the author's possession, offered a dramatic set of specific policy concessions Tehran was prepared to make in the framework of an overall bargain on its nuclear program, its policy toward Israel, and al-Qaeda. It also proposed the establishment of three parallel working groups to negotiate "road maps" on the three main areas of contention -- weapons of mass destruction, "terrorism and regional security," and "economic cooperation."

The document was sent to Washington just in time for a meeting between Iran's U.N. Ambassador Javad Zarif and Khalilzad in Geneva on May 2, 2003. One copy arrived at the State Department by fax, and a second copy was taken to State in person by an American intermediary, according to a source who has discussed the letter with the intermediary.

The proposal offered "decisive action against any terrorists (above all, al-Qaeda) in Iranian territory" and "full cooperation and exchange of all relevant information." It also indicated, however, that Iran wanted from the United States the "pursuit of anti-Iranian terrorists, above all MKO" -- the Iranian acronym for the Mujihedeen e Khalq (MEK), which had fought alongside Iraqi troops in the war against Iran and was on the U.S. list of terrorist organizations -- "and support for repatriation of their members in Iraq" as well as actions against the organization in the United States.

At the May 2 meeting in Geneva, a separate proposal involving exchange of information about al-Qaeda detainees and the MEK was spelled out by Ambassador Zarif. According to Leverett, Zarif informed Khalilzad that Iran would hand over the names of senior al-Qaeda cadres detained in Iran in return for the names of the MEK cadres and troops who had been captured by U.S. forces in Iraq.

To meet the U.S. concern about an Iranian nuclear weapons program, the document offered to accept much tighter controls by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in exchange for "full access to peaceful nuclear technology." It proposed "full transparency for security [assurance] that there are no Iranian endeavors to develop or possess WMD" and "full cooperation with IAEA based on Iranian adoption of all relevant instruments (93+2 and all further IAEA protocols)." That was a reference to new IAEA protocols that would guarantee the IAEA access to any facility, whether declared or undeclared, on short notice -- something Iran had been urged to adopt but was resisting in the hope of getting something in return. The adoption of those protocols would have made it significantly more difficult for Iran to carry on a secret nuclear program without the risk of being caught.

The Iranian proposal also offered a sweeping reorientation of Iranian policy toward Israel. In the past, Iran had attacked those Arab governments that had supported the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, and Tehran had supported armed groups that opposed it. But the document offered "acceptance of the Arab League Beirut declaration (Saudi initiative, two-states approach)." The March 2002 declaration had embraced the land-for-peace principle and a comprehensive peace with Israel in return for Israel's withdrawal to 1967 lines. That position would have aligned Iran's policy with that of the moderate Arab regimes.

The document also offered a "stop of any material support to Palestinian opposition groups (Hamas, Jihad, etc.) from Iranian territory" and "pressure on these organizations to stop violent actions against civilians within borders of 1967." Finally it proposed "action on Hizbollah to become a mere political organization within Lebanon." That package of proposals was a clear bid for removal of Iran from the list of state sponsors of terrorism.



A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More here:

Lawrence Wilkerson, then chief of staff to secretary of state Colin Powell, said the failure to adopt a formal Iran policy in 2002-03 was the result of obstruction by a "secret cabal" of neo-conservatives in the administration, led by Vice President Dick Cheney.

"The secret cabal got what it wanted: no negotiations with Tehran," Wilkerson wrote in an e-mail to Inter Press Service (IPS).

The Iranian negotiating offer, transmitted to the State Department in early May 2003 by the Swiss ambassador in Tehran, acknowledged that Iran would have to address US concerns about its nuclear program, although it made no specific concession in advance of the talks, according to Flynt Leverett, then the National Security Council's senior director for Middle East Affairs.

Iran's offer also raised the possibility of cutting off Iran's support for Hamas and Islamic Jihad and converting Hezbollah into a purely socio-political organization, according to Leverett. That was an explicit response to Powell's demand in late March that Iran "end its support for terrorism".

In return, Leverett recalls, the Iranians wanted the US to address security questions, the lifting of economic sanctions and normalization of relations, including support for Iran's integration into the global economic order.

Leverett also recalls that the Iranian offer was drafted with the blessing of all the major political players in the Iranian regime, including Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khomeini.

Realists, led by Powell and his deputy, Richard Armitage, were inclined to respond positively to the Iranian offer. Nevertheless, within a few days of its receipt, the State Department had rebuked the Swiss ambassador for having passed on the offer.

Exactly how the decision was made is not known. "As with many of these issues of national security decision-making, there are no fingerprints," Wilkerson told IPS. "But I would guess Dick Cheney with the blessing of George W Bush."



A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt
by Steven D on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh for goodness sakes! This is old news. We armed Iraq directly, we financed indirect weapons purchases, and yes, we gave him chemical-bio weapons material too.

For a start, remember that 1982, Saddam Hussein's regime was *REMOVED* from the State Dept list of "Terrorist Nations" to ease the transfer of funds and technology to his regime.


Profile: Helping Saddam; Iraqi government ordered anthrax and botulism-producing bacteria from United States in late 1980s

60 Minutes (CBS) 02/22/1998
MORLEY SAFER, co-host:
Exactly what weapons Saddam is hiding and where he's hiding them remains a mystery. Where he got them and how he developed them is not. He got a lot of help from the British, the French, the Germans, the
Russians and from us. Back in the late '80s when Saddam was considered by some as our friend or at least the enemy of our enemy Iran, we provided Iraq with two of the deadliest substances known to man,
bacteria that produces botulism and anthrax . Among those who thought that what we were doing was all wrong was a former deputy undersecretary of defense named Dr. Steven Bryen...

And see


Hypocrisy Seen in U.S. Stand on Iraqi Arms
Mideast: Officials say American intelligence aided Baghdads use of chemical weapons against Iran in 80s.

By ROBIN WRIGHT, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON -A decade before the current showdown
over weapons of mass destruction, the United States turned a blind eye when Iraq used American intelligence for operations against Iran that made rampant use of chemical weapons and ballistic missiles, according to senior administration and former intelligence officials..."It was all done with a wink and a nod," said a former U.S. intelligence official. "We knew exactly where this stuff
was going, although we bent over backwards to look the other way."

And when Saddam was caught using chemical weapon, the US tried to cover it up and shift the blame into Iran


America didn't seem to mind poison gas
by Joost R. Hiltermann International Herald Tribune  Friday, January
17, 2003
http://www.iht.com/articles/83625.html

Analysis of thousands of captured Iraqi secret police documents and declassified U.S. government documents, as well as interviews with scores of Kurdish survivors, senior Iraqi defectors and retired U.S. intelligence officers, show (1) that Iraq carried out the attack on Halabja, and (2) that the United States, fully aware it was Iraq, accused Iran, Iraq's enemy in a fierce war, of being partly responsible for the attack. The State Department instructed its diplomats to say that Iran was partly to blame. The result of this stunning act of sophistry was that the international community failed to muster the will to condemn Iraq strongly for an act as heinous as the terrorist strike on the World Trade Center.

THe UK was involved in this too:


Iraqis given anthrax secrets by Porton Down scientists
SHYAM BHATIA
The Observer (UK) 01/25/1998
...The West's role in providing Iraq with anthrax know-how began at a key workshop in Winchester in 1988. Among 80 scientists from around the world were Dr Nasser el-Hindawi and his assistant, Dr Thamer Abdel Rahman, microbiologists working for Iraq 's secret biological weapons programme. The programme's aim was to develop weapons to spread anthrax , gas gangrene, botulism toxin, brucellosis, rabbit foot and tetanus....

And see this


 HEADLINE: UNDISCLOSED CONNECTION / SCIENTIST ON GULF WAR SYNDROME
LINKED TO SUPPLIER OF IRAQI ANTHRAX
BYLINE: By Patrick J. Sloyan. WASHINGTON BUREAU
Newsday (NY) November 27, 1996
...Washington - A Nobel laureate who headed a 1994 Pentagon study that dismissed links between chemical and biological weapnos and Persian Gulf War illnesses was also a director of a U.S. firm that had earlier
exported anthrax and other lethal materials to Iraq before the 1991 conflict, according to federal records...Newsday has found that the nonprofit Rockville, Md., firm made 70 government-approved shipments of anthrax and other disease-causing
pathogens to Iraqi scientists between 1985 and 1989, according to congressional records.

And this


Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq
Hearing Before Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs On US Chemical and Biological warfare-related Dual Use Exports to Iraq
(also known as the Riegle Report)
www.rrojasdatabank.info/pfpc/usiraq01.htm  (also available from your local Gov. Printing Office or on Thomas.gov)

Also, see National Security Council Staff Member Howard Teicher's affidavit filed in the Southern District Court of Florida:


"The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin
military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. The United States was anxious to have other countries supply assistance to Iraq. One of the reasons that the United States refused to license or sell U.S.
origin weapons to Iraq was that the supply of non-U.S. origin weapons to Iraq was sufficient to meet Iraq's needs. Under CIA DIrector Casey and Deputy Director Gates, the CIA made sure that non-U.S.
manufacturers manufactured and sold to Iraq the weapons needed by Iraq. In certain instances where a key component in a weapon was not readily available, the highest levels of the United States government
decided to make the component available, directly or indirectly, to Iraq.  I specifically recall that the provision of anti-armor penetrators to Iraq was a case in point...."
http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collections/hidden/teicher.htm

ANd see


Read also Mark Phythian's book: Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain
Secretly Built Saddam's War Machine (Northeastern Series in
Transnational Crime) -- Mark Phythian, Nikos Passas; Hardcover

And see


Rep. Henry Gonzales' investigation into this matter which is part of the COngressional Record:
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920325wp.htm

And also


Arming Iraq: How George H. W. Bush and Ronald Reagan helped Iraq Develop their Weapons of Mass Destruction
December 13, 2002
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/12/13_iraq.html

ANd


Spider's Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally
Armed Iraq
by Alan Friedman
Bantam Doubleday (November 1993)

Shall I continue?

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow.  

Anthrax is a chemical weapon?  Who knew?  

Do you have any evidence that Saddam ever used any biological weapons against Iran or the Kurds?  

I specifically asked you to provide evidence that the US gave the chemical weapons to Iraq that he used on Iran.

That would be mustard gas, sarin and tabun.  

All you give me is a Dow Chemical deal for pesticides in 1988 (the last year of the war) where the Commerce Dept approved the deal even though there were suspicions that some of the product would be converted to chemical weapons.

It is very disturbing that we seemed to be quite content to give him biological agents that could be weaponized, but that was not my point and they never were used on Iran.

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are again resorting to sophistry. First of all, go see the redacted portions of Saddam's "Full, Final, Comprehensive CW Declaration" - the redacted portions list the companies that provided him with chemicals for his chemical weapons - count how many are American companies.

Next, remember that the whole reason why they could ship anything to Iraq was because the Reagan Administration REMOVED IRaq from the list of terrorist nations so as to permit these transfers.

Next, remember that it was US funding and political cover that allowd Saddam to obtain these and many more items.

Next, remember that the US covered up for Saddam. In fact remember that according to the National Security Archives declassified documents, Rumsfeld was specifically sent to tell Saddam not to take any official complains about chemical weapons too seriously.

Do some of your own research before jumping to conclusions.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't find the list you asked me to go read.

I did find an interesting declassified CIA assessment of Iraq's intentions after the cease fire in 1988.  

Part of it said that Iraq saw the use of chemical weapons as crucial to the successful defense against infantry attack and that they would probably seek to enhance their capabilities.  It also said that chemical weapons had worked when all other methods had failed.  That probably explains our permissive attitude.  

However, I still see next to no evidence that their chemical weapons were supplied by us.  

It's not worth arguing over since it doesn't make much difference anyway.  We certainly did not want Iraq to lose the war and we were willing to assist them to prevent it.  If that meant looking the other way, or even giving them chemical weapons, then we were willing to do it.

How is any of this relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether or not the UN through the IAEA and the Security Council will, or will not, do Bush's bidding?

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sigh. Do I have to do ALL your research for you?


[O]n Nov. 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan T. Howe, told Secretary of State George P. Shultz that intelligence reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW" against the Iranians. But the Reagan administration had already committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overture to Baghdad, culminating in several visits by the president's recently appointed special envoy to the Middle East, Donald H. Rumsfeld.
...
[T]the Reagan administration effectively turned a blind eye to the export of "dual use" items such as chemical precursors and steel tubes that can have military and civilian applications...The Commerce Department also approved the export of insecticides to Iraq, despite widespread suspicions that they were being used for chemical warfare.

The fact that Iraq was using chemical weapons was hardly a secret. In February 1984, an Iraqi military spokesman effectively acknowledged their use by issuing a chilling warning to Iran. "The invaders should know that for every harmful insect, there is an insecticide capable of annihilating it . . . and Iraq possesses this annihilation insecticide.'

In late 1987, the Iraqi air force began using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq that had formed a loose alliance with Iran, according to State Department reports. The attacks, which were part of a "scorched earth" strategy to eliminate rebel-controlled villages, provoked outrage on Capitol Hill and renewed demands for sanctions against Iraq. The State Department and White House were also outraged -- but not to the point of doing anything that might seriously damage relations with Baghdad.

"The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is . . . important to our long-term political and economic objectives," Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy wrote in a September 1988 memorandum that addressed the chemical weapons question. "We believe that economic sanctions will be useless or counterproductive to influence the Iraqis."

Bush administration spokesmen have cited Hussein's use of chemical weapons "against his own people" -- and particularly the March 1988 attack on the Kurdish village of Halabjah -- to bolster their argument that his regime presents a "grave and gathering danger" to the United States.

The Iraqis continued to use chemical weapons against the Iranians until the end of the Iran-Iraq war. A U.S. air force intelligence officer, Rick Francona, reported finding widespread use of Iraqi nerve gas when he toured the Al Faw peninsula in southern Iraq in the summer of 1988, after its recapture by the Iraqi army. The battlefield was littered with atropine injectors used by panicky Iranian troops as an antidote against Iraqi nerve gas attacks.

Far from declining, the supply of U.S. military intelligence to Iraq actually expanded in 1988, according to a 1999 book by Francona, "Ally to Adversary: an Eyewitness Account of Iraq's Fall from Grace." Informed sources said much of the battlefield intelligence was channeled to the Iraqis by the CIA office in Baghdad.

Although U.S. export controls to Iraq were tightened up in the late 1980s, there were still many loopholes. In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $ 1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."

The U.S. policy of cultivating Hussein as a moderate and reasonable Arab leader continued right up until he invaded Kuwait in August 1990, documents show. When the then-U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, April Glaspie, met with Hussein on July 25, 1990, a week before the Iraqi attack on Kuwait, she assured him that Bush "wanted better and deeper relations," according to an Iraqi transcript of the conversation. "President Bush is an intelligent man," the ambassador told Hussein, referring to the father of the current president. "He is not going to declare an economic war against Iraq."

"Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam," said Joe Wilson, Glaspie's former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. "Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."

SOURCE: "U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup; Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds" The Washington Post December 30, 2002

Anyway,
You yourself admitted that Dupont had sent "pesticides" to IRaq. What do you think for? What, suddenly the Reagan administration became oh-so concerned about the state of IRaq's agriculture that they had to immediately remove Iraq from the list of terrorist nations and ship "pesticides" to Saddam? Also, don't forget the Bell helicopters that were used to spray the stuff on the Kurds. Is the only evidence you're willing to accept that Rummy himself handed a vial of Tabun to Saddam and said "Here, go use this on the Iranians"? Would you demand that standard of evidence if the tables were turned and Iran was accused of using chemicals on US troops?

Read some more

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2766

And


A leak in the German newspaper die Tageszeitung of some of the 8,000 pages that Washington deleted from Iraq's December 7, 2002, arms declaration provided further information. The deleted sections documented 24 U.S. corporations, 55 U.S. subsidiaries of foreign corporations, and a number of U.S. government agencies that provided parts, material, training and other assistance to Iraq's chemical, biological, missile, and nuclear weapons programs throughout the 1970s and 80s, some continuing till the end of 1990. The U.S. corporations include Honeywell, Rockwell, Hewlett Packard, Dupont, Eastman Kodak, Bechtel, and more. U.S. government Departments of Energy, Commerce, Defense and Agriculture, as well as federal laboratories at Sandia, Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore, were also involved.

A major front-page article in the Washington Post (December 30, 2002) further documented U.S. support for Iraq's WMD programs, especially the chemical program, including trade in weapons and other military goods. The article also detailed the active involvement of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, then a special envoy of President Reagan to Iraq, in reestablishing full diplomatic relations and improving trade and other economic ties that bolstered Washington's military support of Iraq.


SOURCE: http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/primer4.htm
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is very much talk about legality and legal rights, but that is not the real issue.  The most important factor here is trust and if Iran is not intent on getting nuclear weapons then why not allow IAEA inspections in order to reassure people that their intent is not to acquire nuclear weapons in the first place?    

If they keep on playing this game with the Bush administration they will only increase the suspicions of ordinary people and thus help the US administration in their effort to unit people against Iran, it could lead to something even worse.  I guess the key factor here is to save face on both sides, what a charade.  
 

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iran HAS allowd IAEA inspections - in fact Iran has allowed MORE inspections that it is legally required - and furthermore Iran has the WORLD'S RECORD in IAEA inspections.

Iran has continued to facilitate access under its Safeguards Agreement as requested by the Agency, and to act as if the Additional Protocol is in force, including by providing in a timely manner the requisite declarations and access to locations.

SOURCE: Developments in the Implementation of the NPT Safeguards Agreement in
the Islamic Republic of Iran and Agency Verification of Iran's Suspension
of Enrichment-related and Reprocessing Activities
Update Brief by the [IAEA] Deputy Director General for Safeguards, 31 January 2006
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes they have allowed it in the past, but why not allow it now?  The IAEA inspections are to be decided by the IAEA as they see fit and not to be decided by the Iranian government.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The past? The date of the report is January 2006, and the sites are under constant IAEA monitoring by cameras anyway - so Iran is abiding by all its duties.  
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
January 2006 IS the past and Iran is denying the IAEA access to their nuclear sites in a critical time, when they have admitted uranium enrichment.  Cameras do not tell the full story I am afraid and that is why IAEA, in addition to the cameras, have to rely on on-the-ground inspections.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What the hell are you talking about? Jan 31 2006 is 7 months ago, and during that time Iran's enrichment facilities are under 24-hour intense surveillance by the IAEA.

Furthermore, Iran has "admitted" to uranium enrichment for many years. In fact, Iran's plans to start enrichment go back to the to before the revolution. In 1982,  Iran officially announced on the radio that they wanted to start enrichment. When Iran TRIED to engage in cooperation with the IAEA on this program the US ILLEGALLY prevented the IAEA from legally assisting Iran.


"Since the IAEA Statute commits the agency to provide technical assistance to member states, a team of experts travelled to Iran to interact with scientists at Entec, the Iranian atomic establishment set up in 1974 with French assistance to work on the fuel cycle. According to an account provided by Mark Hibbs in Nuclear Fuel, one of the most authoritative newsletters of the international nuclear industry, the IAEA experts recommended that the agency assist Entec to help their scientists overcome their lack of practical experience. They also suggested that the IAEA provide expert services in a number of areas including the fuel cycle.

But the promised IAEA help never materialised. According to Mr. Hibbs: "Sources said that when in 1983 the recommendations of an IAEA mission to Iran were passed on to the IAEA's technical cooperation program, the U.S. government then `directly intervened' to discourage the IAEA from assisting Iran in production of UO2 and UF6.`"


SOURCE
http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2006/08/iran-little-chance-of-nuclear.html
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Furthermore, Iran has "admitted" to uranium enrichment for many years.

I am well aware of that, but that is not my point.  My point was that in a time when the UN deadline is expiring and the Iranian Uranium enrichment still continuing while they are denying IAEA inspectors access to important enrichment sites, this will further escalate the tension and certainly lead to more drastic measures.  If they are that sure of their peaceful intentions why deny the IAEA inspectors access?  This is only counterproductive and will not lead to a peaceful nuclear program with the international communities approval, which Iran by the way have admitted to by signing the Non-proliferation treaty.    

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the latest IAEA report Iran has allowed access to the sites that the IAEA is entitled to inspect - and in fact those sites are under 24-hour surveillance. Iran is not under any legal obligation to allow more inspections than that - certainly not when Iran's rights arent' being observed in return, and when no amount of inspections can prove a negative anyway. You say its not a legal matter - but why should Iran be the only one that is expected to show flexibility?

Iran was flexible enough to allow those sorts of inspections for 2 years - at sites such as Parchin. And still the IAEA found no evidence of a nuclear weapons program.

In fact the US has made it clear that no amount of inspections will suffice. If you knew anything about this topic, you'd know that the US doesnt' accuse Iran of HAVING secret nuclear programs now, but of WANTING to or PLANNING TO have them in the future.
That can't be disproved by any amount of inspections -and the IAEA itself said this clearly when the IAEA report stated that they "can't see into the future".

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That can't be disproved by any amount of inspections -and the IAEA itself said this clearly when the IAEA report stated that they "can't see into the future".

Well, that is why frequent inspections are needed to at least reduce the suspicions that Iran has another agenda than a peaceful nuclear program.  According to IAEA director El-Baradei on Iran embarking on a uranium enrichment programme;

"They have been saying this is the result of importing equipment from abroad...The jury is still out...The fact that they have been working on a programme for over 20 years...the fact that they have not been transparent..We need to get to the bottom of this," said Dr ElBaradei.

Dr ElBaradei wants Iran to sign up to the Additional Protocol of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - the NPT - which would force the country to submit to IAEA's snap inspections: "If you have nothing to hide, there is no reason not to be transparent," he said.

He admits that they should have known about the development of new nuclear facilities at Natanz.



Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh do keep up. You're quoting something without providing the date.

Iran signed the Additional Protocol in 2003 and even though Iran has not ratified it, Iran agreed to implement it as if it was binding. In Jan 2006, the IAEA reported that Iran had continued to act as if the Additional Protocol was in force. FOr more than 2 years, Iran allow all the snap inspections that the IAEA wanted - and there was still no evidence of a nuclear weapons program found.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Iran, fearful that the US might subject it to the treatment
given Iraq over that country's supposed (but non-existent) nuclear weapons
program, has submitted to extraordinary inspections of its facilities by
the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) under an "Additional
Protocol" going far beyond its obligations under the NPT. These
inspections have resulted in repeated findings by the IAEA that Iran is in
"substantial compliance" with its NPT obligations. Granted, the IAEA has
expressed displeasure that some past Iranian nuclear activities were not
disclosed until establishment of the additional protocol, but IAEA chief
Mohammed al-Baradei, even under heavy pressure from the US and UK which
tried to have him removed from his post, has stuck to his conclusions,
receiving a Nobel Peace Prize in recognition of his integrity."

SOURCE: Counterpunch
Can the Iran Nuke Crisis be Defused?
By DAVID MacMICHAEL (Former CIA analyst.) http://www.counterpunch.com/macmichael08312006.html

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, by the way, about that Aug 21 article on your link which reports that Iran "turned away inspectors" from a site:

If you had read it carefully and knew something about the matter, you'd know that Iran turned away TWO of the inspectors - as Iran was entitled to do -- but the rest of the inspectors were present and continued their job of inspections.


IAEA Inspections of Iran's Nuclear Facilities not
Troubled

TEHRAN (Fars News Agency)- Iran's residing
representative at the International Atomic Energy
Agency Ali Asqar Soltanieh said Tehran has not
hindered IAEA inspections of its nuclear sites and
facilities within the framework of the regulations of
the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Speaking to FNA, Soltanieh dismissed some recent
reports that Tehran has posed some restrictions on the
inspection of its sites by IAEA and said that the
inspectors designated by the IAEA are continuing with
their activities in Iran and that inspections have not
been limited or troubled.

Asked about exclusion of two inspectors from the list
of IAEA inspectors who were scheduled to visit Iran's
facilities, he said that Iran has taken the measure in
compliance with the infcirc/153 of the comprehensive
safeguard agreement.

"Every NPT member state is entitled to ask for the
exclusion of one or more inspectors from the list of
those who are nominated to pay visits to the nuclear
facilities and sites of that specific country and this
is nothing abnormal," he continued.

The nuclear official said that the Agency accepted
Tehran's demand in compliance with the rules and
regulations...

SOURCE: Iranian "Fars News" website 2006-08-25

If you want to believe this or not, up to you - bottom line is that you can't rely on single source to tell you the truth. SHould have learned that already with how the media lied about Iraq.

And in fact the latst report of the IAEA states that
Iran allowd the inspection of that particular site to proceed.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you had read it carefully and knew something about the matter(.....)

Well, I am not going to comment on that, besides from saying that this kind of arguments are getting you nowhere, but keep up the good work.  

Oh, by the way your link seems to site only one source to I believe it is called Iranian "Fars News" website 2006-08-2, a non-biased source indeed.

bottom line is that you can't rely on single source to tell you the truth. SHould have learned that already with how the media lied about Iraq.

Yes, some people ought to practice what they preach.  

Since you are referring to the latest IAEA report all the time, a link to an official site that has the full text would be much obliged.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you can call Fars News biased if you wantand I certainly won't argue with that< but the bottom line is that the IAEA itself said  that its inspectors were in fact allowed to do their inspections.

Look after the whole Iraq thing, yuou can assume that the Western media is 100% honest all the time. The point isn't to rely on Fars news - the point is that you have to check more than one source before you simply believe and parrot whatever you're told.

The AP report claimed that anonymous persons had said Iran had "turned away inspectors" - how many of them? All of them or some of them? You didn't bother asking yourself that, did you?

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Look after the whole Iraq thing, yuou can assume that the Western media is 100% honest all the time. The point isn't to rely on Fars news - the point is that you have to check more than one source before you simply believe and parrot whatever you're told.

Agreed but it is not really any progress when you are linking to websites that are upholding the same mantra and the same political views.

The AP report claimed that anonymous persons had said Iran had "turned away inspectors" - how many of them? All of them or some of them? You didn't bother asking yourself that, did you?

Well, no, not really because it is a bit like a court case where both sides are allowed to ostracize the people they think will ruin their case that is what Iran did.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually you're assuming that Iran's motivations for challenging the inspectors was because they were onto somthing.

The rules allow countries to challenge individual inspectors. For example, if the neutrality of the inspectors is questionable because they've starting giving opinions of their own to the media interviews instead of doing their job.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 11:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...Also don't forget that during the Iraq war build-up the US admitted that some of the inspectors were US agents, and that the inspections were in fact spying missions.

Iran has had to very carefully monitor the inspectors by videotaping them to make sure they don't plant incriminating evidence.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 11:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
..Also don't forget that during the Iraq war build-up the US admitted that some of the inspectors were US agents, and that the inspections were in fact spying missions.

And that entitles them to be on the "safe side"? It seems  as Iran is convicting before having evidence, isn't that exactly what they are accusing the UN security council members of doing?

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 12:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 Actually you're assuming that Iran's motivations for challenging the inspectors was because they were onto somthing.

No, their motivation could be that they didn't like what these inspectors reported.  In effect meaning that they were to independent in their reporting.

The rules allow countries to challenge individual inspectors. For example, if the neutrality of the inspectors is questionable because they've starting giving opinions of their own to the media interviews instead of doing their job.

Yes and that right could easily be abused.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 12:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A right is a right is a right, my friend, and can be exercised for good or ill.  That is the definition of a right.  Freedom of speech in America is often used for bad ends, but it is still the right of persons in America to speak freely.

And simply because you speculate that a right might be abused is no reason to jump to conclusions that it has been abused.  Do you have any proof or any multi-sourced information to suggest that they have in fact abused this right?

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead

by blueneck on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 12:35:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is true, but that is not my point.  My point was that Iran exercising this right in no way strengthens its credibility internationally; they only deepen people's suspicions of their intentions.  

And simply because you speculate that a right might be abused is no reason to jump to conclusions that it has been abused.  Do you have any proof or any multi-sourced information to suggest that they have in fact abused this right?

No, I haven't, but as I have said above, it increases the international communities' suspicions, but then again they do not seem to care, lol.  When talking of proof people arguing that Iran hasn't got any intention of developing nuclear weapons can not prove that either.   The IAEA and others in the UN Security Council are not convinced of their peaceful intentions anyway, and frankly neither am I.

This case is about trust and confidence, something there is very little of at the moment.          

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 10:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Without putting the words in Booman's mouth, I guess what he was referring to was amongst other things Iran's proxy unit in Lebanon, called Hezbollah and their actions in the early nineteen eighties.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Hezbollah in the 1980s was figthing off an Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The Hezbollah supposedly attacked and bombed a US MARINE BARRACKS

Since when is attacking an armed, uniformed, foreign force which has come  onto your soil 1- "terrorism"? or 2- the fault of Iran?

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:18:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The suicide attacks of an army barracks is doubious, but could be deemed a military operation, but the kidnapping and killing of civillians, including CIA operatives, are certainly terrorist operations.  So is the killing of book publishers around the world.  The brutal killing of the Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi is not exactly proof of a government wanting to abide by the Human Rights charter and the rule of law either.    

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CIA operatives are not civilians

Zahra Kazemi wasn't killed by Hezbollah.
WHich if of course sad but if you're so worried about the death of journalists, perhaps you should consider equally the ones who are shot regularly by the US-armed and financed Israelis (who are armed with REAL nuclear, chemical and biological weapons) or the journalists who were intentionally targetted and bombed by the US during the conflict in Serbia:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/oneill.php?articleid=8161

IF all you have to say is that the Iranain gov't does bad things, then people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. After all, who armed and financed the Latin American nun-raping death squads who were responsbile for atrocities such as the massacre at El Mazote, Iran?  (See http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/e/elsalvdr/elsalv923.pdf )

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CIA operatives ARE civilians they are not categorized as military personnel, but non-combatant government officials with diplomatic immunity (see the Vienna convention).  

No, I didn't say that Zahra Kazemi was killed by Hezbollah;

"The brutal killing of the Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi is not exactly proof of a government wanting to abide by the Human Rights charter and the rule of law either."
As far as I know Hezbollah is not a government, but an NGO.  Iran on the other hand has its own government.

I don't deny that the US and many European countries have done much wrong and will continue to do so in the future, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept the wrong doings of Iran and other countries in the Middle-East.  There seems to be plenty of people on different liberal blog's that are aware of the Western countries wrong doings and for the most part rightly so, but not so many people that parallel to this criticises authoritarian and totalitarian regimes in the Middle-East.  I am just trying to balance the debate a bit.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You just complained that the killing of Zahra Kazemi is evidence that Iran  doesn't want to "abide by the Human Rights charter and the rule of law either."
but now that its clear that the US and Israel and others have done worse, you're singing another tune!
So why hold Iran to one standard and others to a different standard?  
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(.....)but now that its clear that the US and Israel and others have done worse, you're singing another tune!
So why hold Iran to one standard and others to a different standard?

LOL, where do you get the idea that I am condoning wrong doings from both the US and Israel?  Yes, I have defended Israel on numerous occasions both here on BT and ET, but I have never condoned, what in my opinion is wrong doings.  Have you seen me defend the Qana bombings? or the bombing of the UN posts?  NO, you have not!  I was defending Israel's right to self-defence and nothing more nothing less. So I am not holding Iran to one standard while I am admitting others to different standards.  That said I have to admit that authoritarian and totalitarian regimes have a especially bad ring in my ears.    

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:15:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny because the "authoritarian and totalitarian" regimes in the Mideast are US allies. Iran is not "totalitarian" - even the most right-wing war-mongers in the US admit that.

"Iran's regime, extremist but not totalitarian..."
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Production/files/luttwak0506.html

IRan is certainly not a liberal democracy, certainly, but neither is it North Korea, Soviet Union or Chile under Pinochet either. In fact, Iran has been moving toward a democracy, and even the opponents of the regime say that US policies under Bush have HURT the movement towards democracy in Iran.

"The Bush administration should not be seduced by exile groups with no support in Iran. Developing democracy is an internal affair...Instead of backing Iran's fledgling democratic movement, which would have led to nuclear transparency, the U.S. undercut it by demonizing Iran."
Shirin Ebadi, LA Times  http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ebadi19jan19,0,5662866.story?coll=la-news-comme nt-opinions

"Iran is currently the only model of a developing democracy in a predominantly Moslem county in the Middle East and Central Asia. "
http://www.counterpunch.org/vaseghi1.html  

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny because the "authoritarian and totalitarian" regimes in the Mideast are US allies.

Again I have no need for defending the US policy so it is really no beating a dead horse.  

Iran is not "totalitarian" - even the most right-wing war-mongers in the US admit that.

Well maybe you have the need to trust "the most right-wing warmongerer in the US", as you call him, since you find it worthwhile linking to him I mean.  I don't.  The campaign manager, Mohammed Baghir Nowbakht, of Hashemi Rafsanjani's camp seems to be disagreeing with your assessments of the Iranian political system.

Even so Iran is not a Totalitarian system according to traditional and the strictest interpretations of the concept, but it certainly adhere to a great many parameters, such as a unified ideology, a hierarchical political structure with the clergy on top of the power pyramid and the notion that Islam and the State are in control over most aspects of society from the economy, the political system to what is taught in schools and how people are allowed to behave in the streets (dress code and acceptable conduct).  The society has a high degree of censorship and is controlled by security services and Para-military units like the Revolutionary Guards. In my book that is going a long way on the path to Totalitarianism. That said I have to grant you that the Khatami presidency did a lot of good to the country, but much seems to have been reversed when Ahmadinejad came to power.    

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spies are "gov't officials" who have diplomatic immunity? LOL!!!
What, do they present their credentials as spies to the host nation?
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spies are what Hezbollah call them and something you seem to condone, without any convincing evidence and which they seem to find OK to murder.  This people's official status, something most people and world NGO's agree upon, are diplomats.  

When has intelligence officials automatically been spies?  Most intelligence officials are gathering open source information which is perfectly legal and indeed necessary in order to provide as much information as possible to their respective decision makers.  By killing intelligence officials they openly admit that they do not abide by international laws.    

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's not exactly accurate.

Most CIA officers are stationed in embassies and given official cover.

But some, like Valerie Plame, are not.  She had been a non-offical cover officer.  And she had no diplomatic immunity.  She could expect to be killed if discovered.  

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but I don't see any contradiction in what you are saying and what I said.  There are of course undercover agents also in embassies, but I do not deny that in my comment.  On the contrary I said that MOST intelligence officials are gathering open source information, and still stick with that one.  Undercover agents are, as you say, non-official and thus do not belong to the diplomatic staff at least not as intelligence officials.  Still they are entitled to be treated humanly.    

As far as I can recollect William Buckley had an official status in the embassy as Political Officer/ CIA Station Chief in the Beirut embassy and thus had diplomatic cover.  
 

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are given diplomatic "Cover" because if their true status as a SPY Is known then they are not entitled to the benefits of a diplomatic status. If your "cover" status is blown then you can't expect to be treated a as if the cover still applies.

Buckley was a spy in a war zone in which the US was siding with the invading Israelis. He knew the risks. He shouldn't have been killed or treated inhumanely, certainly. But no one should be killed or treated inhumanely.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are right about Buckley, who was tortured to death and an audio tape was sent to Langely.  Nice.

And you wonder why the CIA has a hard-on for Iran?

However, saying the US was siding with the Israelis is not exactly accurate.  We were there to prevent the different factions from fighting, including the Israelis.  If anything, we were seen as siding with the Christians.  And we were there by negotiated invitation.  

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:54:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you are not correct in that assumption not all intelligence officials with diplomatic status are working as spies.  And when your cover is blown you don't loose your diplomatic status.  If that had been the case most "blown" agents with diplomatic status had been sitting in jails all over the world they are not they get expelled.

He shouldn't have been killed or treated inhumanely, certainly. But no one should be killed or treated inhumanely.

If that is your and Hezbollah's excuse why then bother having international laws and treaties?    

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:31:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They get expelled as a courtesy but they can be tried and imprisoned - and in this case, there was a war going on. Look I'm not defending Hezbollah, the point is that you can't hold the Hezbollah to one standard and then the US to another. Do you have any idea how many TOTALLY INNOCENT people have been tortued and "disappeared" by the same CIA that you're so weepy about?
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well courtesy or not, it functions like an unwritten law  and most countries abide by it that is in essence how all laws are functioning, whether they are written or not.  

I am not weepy about the CIA at all, what I am saying is that every man or women are entitled to be treated with respect and dignity even if they belong to the enemy, that goes for the CIA too. Killing a man that first of all posed no physical threat to Hezbollah and secondly was under their control is not defendable, in my book, even if a war was going on.  
 

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SO now are you saying that he wasnt a spy? What was the CIA station chief doing in Lebanon - taking a vacation? Get real.
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am not saying that he was not a spy, that might very well be, but he had diplomatic status and should be treated as such.  After all Hezbollah had him in custody an thus posed no threat to them.  They were in total control and still they choose to kill him.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The CIA station chief "may have been" a spy? LOL!!
If you're so concerned about people being killed during interrogation, check this out:

The United States' "Disappeared"
The CIA's Long-Term "Ghost Detainees"
A Human Rights Watch Briefing Paper    
October 2004
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/us1004/

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that he is not making sense.  

The Station Chief is the head spy in country.

Obviously his dipolmatic immunity was false and did not need be honored.  Spies know that they may be killed.  

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:22:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that he is not making sense.  

The Station Chief is the head spy in country.

Obviously his diplomatic immunity was false and did not need be honoured.  Spies know that they may be killed.

Well, it seems of no use getting into the nitty gritty of things, but a last important point to make is the fact that it seems as if Hezbollah kidnapped Buckley without knowing he belonged to the CIA.  This was unravelled later and that meant that they were technically abducting a random US diplomat.  Still, he was covered by diplomatic immunity.  The distinction between intelligence officials that do not have a diplomatic cover and does that are covered by diplomatic immunity wouldn't make sense if there is no difference in treatment between agents that are covered by diplomatic immunity and those who are not.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 12:05:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes and what's your point?

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermun E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's an astounding comment.

I don't care whether you call the killing of 241 US and 58 French members of a brokered peacekeeping force peacekeepers 'terrorism' or not, I call it 'not our friends'.  

As for whether Iran was behind it, that is the going theory and that would make it their fault.

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to play who-did-what-to-whom you'll be surprised to see that lots of other nations have their own grudges too.

241 US Marines vs. 120,000 Iranians killed as a result of US-backed Iraqi aggression and 298 Iranian CIVILIANS killed when the US Navy shot down an Iranian CIVILIAN airliner INSIDE IRANIAN AIRSPACE then lied about it and tried to cover it up. (http://alt-f4.org/img/seaoflies.html)

Oh lets not forget the fellows who were killed and tortured by the CIA-trained and US backed Iranian secret police under the Shah....

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Keep shifting the argument.

First Iran had nothing to do with it, now they were justified and we've done worse.

I wish our leaders would read a history book too, but it doesn't matter why Iran is a threat, they are a threat.  Part of the reason they are a threat is because we insist on invading their neighbors and aligning ourselves with the Arab regimes throughout the Gulf and basing there.  Part of it is historical, like 1953.  

We have a political problem, in that our leadership is pursuing a hardline on Iran and we have a hard job to do to not appear as appeaseniks and soft of security.  We can't win that political battle by saying that all the problems we have with security are of our own making.  We don't have the power to fundamentally change the scope of our policy.  

The number of people that are willing to say they don't care if Iran gets a nuclear bomb is almost as small as the number of people that would vote for them.  That's a problem, because we are about to get into the September rollout of the Republican plan to hold the House and Senate, and they are going to ask all Democrats where they stand.  

They aren't going to be making your arguments. At best, they will say that we are not in a crisis and we have time to deal with the threat.  

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't say that Iran 'had nothing to do with it' - because to this day the amount of control that Iran has over the Hezbollah is subject to a lot of controversy and spin.

As for who-done-worse, you started, and I merely finished it to its logical conclusion. If you don't want to go there, don't start it.

As for Iran being "a threat" -- who is a threat to whom? Who has OFFICIALLY declared that nuking Iran and other countries on a first-use basis is part of their declared "Nuclear Posture"?  (See www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060222&articleId=2032 )

Has the president of Iran ever stated that dropping nukes on the USA remains "an option on the table"? Why is it that no one cares about how Bush threatens the entire world, but when Ahmadinejad passes gas, suddenly he's "Threatening"

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
because I don't live in Tehran and my security is what I am most concerned with.

Until you understand that, you won't win many elections.

The vast majority of Americans are unconcerned with any double standards.  They want to know that our enemies (and Iran certainly qualifies, although I hope we might change that in the future) are not getting nuclear weapons and consorting with terrorists.

If you don't think it is a hard sell to tell the American people that we can't stop Iran if they want to go that route, then you are unfamiliar with this electorate.

by BooMan on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So in short you've simply decided that Iran is a "threat" and that's all there is to it. Well I'm not going to bother arguing against a "belief" since there's no point - people can believe a lot of things even in the face of all the contrary facts - like that fact that Iran has repeatedly tried to reach an accomodation with the US but has been spurned (the 2003 offer?)

Anyway, its very nice that you're worried about your own security - but some of us care a little bit more about the rest of humanity too. And I'm not sure how simply swallowing whatever we're told about Iran's "nuclear threat" really even helps even YOUR security. Are you any more secure today as a result of the invasion of Iraq?

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Iran still has moves to make and cards left to play . . .

Suppose that when the US asks for sanctions against Iran that the Iranians (with more than a couple co-sponsors) ask for sanctions against the US for sale of nuclear technology to India, Israel and Pakistan . . . all clear violations of the non-proliferation treaty to which the US is signatory.  It would be not-hard-at-all to argue that is a more pressing matter that must be dealt with before addressing the rather trivial "charges" against Iran . . .

by Deward Hastings on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:29:56 PM EST
No no, see, according to our Ambassador to the United Nations, international law and treaties don't actually apply to the US. Only to everyone else...
See http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/972
by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention that Iran knows how to play cards. It also knows what card game is being played. While they don`t have to resort to cheating, they realize the game is being played against a known cheater & an extremely incompetent bluffer.
I`m afraid that after the bombing of the low grade processing plants, the killing of another batch of brown skins, we`ll see a monkey looking under tables trying to find weapons grade material that did not exist, while the tuxedo garbed group yuks it up. HAHAHAHAHHAAHA.
THIS IS NOT FUNNY
And only then will we be told that it was really about regime change. Maybe regime change should start at home.

The difference between theists and atheists is that the atheists don't set the theists on fire for refusing to agree with them.
by KNUCKLEHEAD on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 05:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree with much of your essay, particularly the "going to be ugly" conclusion.  The US is playing a high-stakes game with a terrible hand & Iran seems intent on calling our bluff. It won't be pretty.

The balance of power is shifting very quickly in the world but America (& Israel) is in a state of denial.  The neocon strategists still believe America to be the god-like omnipotent superpower.  This delusion does not bode well for any kind of diplomatic solution.  The obvious hypocrisy of US/Israeli policies regarding nuclear proliferation give us little credibility in the world.  We are seen, rightfully so, as rogue nations that continue to threaten world stability.

We know so little about the cultures of countries we call "evil".  The "terrorist" label is applied to virtually anyone who challenges our view of our own supremacy. Unlike the near-miss of nuclear annihilation during the Cold War, today we have no one in power with the wisdom to try to avert this catastrophe.  All we have is swagger & braggadaccio wrapped up in a God-complex.

As you said, it's going to be ugly.

 

by musikman on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:35:22 PM EST
The conservative revolution in America (election of Ronnie Reagan)all really began because of Iranian actions that embarrassed Democratic America under Jimmy Carter.  Therefore, any liberals supporting Iran should keep this little favor Iran did for us in mind.  Furthermore. America hates Iran for these hostage actions back then, and it would be political, suicide to support Iran even if Iran has some merit to their arguments.  

Dems and liberals must tread carefully when dealing with the Iranian issue (as well as with the Israeli security issue) less Iran slit our throats politically AGAIN!!

by NG on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 04:39:36 PM EST
"Ayatollah Khomeini sanctioned the kidnapping of American hostages that were held for 444 days."

He did this because Bushel the First (in a secret meeting in Paris) promised to sell him weapons and knew that the U.S. media could be depended on to sensationalize it in a way that would help the oil barons get Jimmy Carter out of the WH.  JC was a very good president and would have gained a second term if not for this evil plot that eventually played out as the Iran-Contra scandal.  Any questions?

Tie a yellow ribbon around any idiot who can't see through this bloodless corporate coup of our democracy.

by mythmother (mythmother (at) gmail.com) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 09:04:29 PM EST
I find Booman's focus is too much on Iran and its possible bad or reckless intentions.  Booman's unwillingness to keep the focus on the real power players makes me feel uncomfortable.  He his were the propaganda machine wants us all to be: looking at Iran, shaking our heads and forgetting about everything else.  For a different perspective may I suggest that Booman turns 180 degrees away from the masses for a little while.  This is what he might see:
There is strong evidence that the US administration's recent public statements that it is now willing to negotiate with Iran are highly disingenuous: they are designed not to reach a diplomatic solution to the so-called "Iran crisis", but to remove diplomatic hurdles toward a military "solution".

The administration's public gestures of a willingness to negotiate with Iran are rendered utterly meaningless because such alleged negotiations are premised on the condition that Iran suspends its uranium-enrichment program.

Considering the fact that suspension of uranium enrichment, which is altogether within Iran's legitimate rights under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, is supposed to be the main point of negotiations, Iran is asked, in effect, "to concede the main point of the negotiations before they started" (Hersh, "The military's problem with the president's Iran policy").

So they want military confrontation. Why? And who is they?

The driving force behind the neo-conservatives' war juggernaut must be sought not in the alleged defense of democracy or of national interests but in the nefarious special interests that are carefully camouflaged behind the front of national interests. These special interests derive lucrative business gains and high dividends from war and militarism. They include both economic interests (famously known as the military-industrial complex) and geopolitical interests (associated largely with Zionist proponents of "Greater Israel" in the Middle East, or the Israeli lobby).
And there it goes...there is Israel again as the boogie man...can't go there...better we turn around again and focus on Iran...

Don't Panic
by fourtytwo on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 12:23:02 PM EST
1953 the pan-Arab nationalist, who were overwhelmingly secular and favored education and modernity, had an ally in the elected leader of Iran, Mohammad Mossadegh.

The US overthrew his government and placed the Shah of Iran in charge. Under the Shah, the US encouraged development of nuclear power. The secret police were so effective at the desctruction of traditional civil society, that eventually the opposition consisted only of those who organized under religious leadership.

The people of Iran and America have never been enemies. But the American government has been the enemy of the Iranian people for a long time. Now the Iranian government is the enemy of the American government and the American people. But that was not always and need not be the case.

by redwagon on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 03:15:58 PM EST
I'm not sure that the gov't of Iran is the enemy of the American people.

In fact I think diving the world into "enemies" and "friends" is too simplistic. The US and Iran have gotten along quite well on a number of issues in which they've had common interests - which is basically the same way that other nations relate to each other.

This simplistic pushing of Iran and the US as "enemies" is largely the work of the IsraeliCons who dont' want to see the US and Iran start to get along.

by hass (hassani1387@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 05:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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Journalistas: 100 Years of the Best Writing and Reporting by Women Journalists by Eleanor Mills * NYT review


Bury Me Standing: the Gypsies & Their Journey


1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus



Brokeback Mountain
by Annie Proulx
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Check out Powell's
"At The Movies"


Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World by Noam Chomsky (Power & Terror: Post 9-11 Talks)


The Price of Privilege:

How Parental Pressure and
Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of
Disconnected and Unhappy Kids

by Madeline Levine


Save 35-70% on
name brand clothing,
footwear, and outdoor gear
at SierraTradingPost.com

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We listened to PEN American Center's "State of Emergency" and found 1940s books by Curzio Malaparte only at Alibris. (Selection (MP3) excerpted from "The Skin.")

Alibris - Books You Thought You'd Never Find
Banned Books * Are you a fan of Film Noir, Art House, Documentaries or Hong Kong Action? * Searching for a long-lost children's book or a first printing of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue on vinyl? Find it at Alibris!

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www.Patagonia.com


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