Booman Tribune

Orwellian anti-zionism: Not a single saami with a missile

by citizen k
Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:05:19 AM EST

Jostein Gaarder's profoundly confused attack on Israel contains an Orwellian lie that is breathtaking in its audacity but dismayingly common.

the state of Israel, with its unscrupulous art of war and its disgusting weapons, has massacred its own legitimacy.

This assertion makes no sense unless there is something particularly repellent about the way Israel practices war that should single it out from all the other bloody handed states in the world - the states that should remain legitimate. The obvious question is why the US and the UK remain legitimate states in light of their current adventure in Iraq. And while there are many criticisms of the US in Europe, it's Israel that is "illigitimate" even though there is absolutely not one single atrocity committed by Israel in the last 50 years that has any advantage in either originality or scale over the common practice of the European nations and their colonies over the last 300 years or more. (Please note, I'm attacking European ideologies, not defending Israeli atrocities - even in Haaretz you can see too much.)

What accounts for this singling out of Israel is Europe's legacy racism and denial. Gaarder's lie is part and parcel of the anti-semitic constructs of his essay but it cuts to the heart of the colonial past and present and the way Europe and its settler states have refused to come to terms with how they came to the top of the heap on this planet.

Although essays like this are common in Europe, an example from a Norwegian is particularly illustrative because Norway has relatively clean hands. The same type of essays written by English, Germans, French, or Belgians show us that double-talk truly has no limits.

Like the American conservatives who he echos although he would undoubtedly gag at the comparison, Gaarder makes a rushed and grudging admission of some unclear unpleasantness in the past before recycling classical racism. In the US we hear exactly the same story from racists who want to condemn what they imagine to be the especially violent and criminal nature of African-Americans.


We acknowledge and pay heed to Europe's deep responsibility for the plight of the Jews, for the disgraceful harassment, the pogroms, and the Holocaust. It was historically and morally necessary for Jews to get their own home. However,...

Yes, it was a bitch, but that was in the past, we gave them everything because we are generous to a fault, and still they behave as it is in their low natures to behave:

We do not believe that Israel grieves more for forty killed Lebanese children than it for over three thousand years has lamented forty years in the desert. We note that many Israelis celebrate such triumphs like they once cheered the scourges of the Lord as "fitting punishment" for the people of Egypt. (In that tale, the Lord, God of Israel, appears as an insatiable sadist.)

In America, racists complain that someone is "playing the race card" when they are called to task for their racism. In Europe, we hear about the unfair accusations of anti-semitism raised against pure humanists who are beyond that. But anyone familiar with European anti-semitism will recognize this pattern. The start, "Israel grieves"
as "it for over three thousand years ..." shows us that - despite any pretence-  the target here is "it" - the Jews - not the state of Israel. And then we get the predictable slap at the barbaric and violent religion of the Jews (when a Norwegian finds your ancestral myths barbaric, you must be bad indeed.). One could immediately predict the reference to Christs new revelation and its rejection by the stubborn evil doers and we are not disappointed

We do not recognize the spiral of retribution of the blood vengeance with "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." We do not recognize the principle of one or a thousand Arab eyes for one Israeli eye. We do not recognize collective punishment or population-wide diets as political weapons. Two thousand years have passed since a Jewish rabbi criticized the ancient doctrine of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."

He said: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

That's very nice. The Jews, as is well known, have rejected Christ's mercy. Did you know that Norway was consituted as a Lutheran nation? When Martin Luther advised the Princes of Europe to burn all the synagogues and the books of the Jews kill, torture, and expel the Jews themselves, he wrote


 That is the kind of Messiah we Christians have, and we thank God, the Father of all mercy, with the full, overflowing joy of our hearts, gladly and readily forgetting all the sorrow and harm which the devil wrought for us in Paradise. For our loss has been richly compensated for, and all has been restored to us through this Messiah. Filled with such joy, the apostles sang and rejoiced in dungeons and amid all misfortunes as did even young girls, such as Agatha, Lucia, etc. The wretched Jews, on the other hand, who rejected this Messiah, have languished and perished since that time in anguish of heart, in trouble, trembling, wrath, impatience, malice, blasphemy, and cursing, as we read in Isaiah 65:14: "Behold, my servants shall sing for gladness of heart, but you shall cry out for pain of heart, and shall wail for anguish of spirit. You shall leave your name to my chosen for a curse, and the Lord God will slay you; but his servants he will call by a different name." And in the same chapter we read: "I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' to a nation that did not call on my name (that is, who were not my people). I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people." We, indeed, have such a Messiah, who says to us (John 11:25): "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die." And John 8:51: "Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death." The Jews and the Turks care nothing for such a Messiah. And why should they? They must have a Messiah from the fool's paradise, who will satisfy their stinking belly, and who will die together with them like a cow or dog.
And when Joostien Gaarder also became exasperated with the Jews he wrote:
There are limits to our patience, and there are limits to our tolerance. We do not believe in divine promises as justification for occupation and apartheid. We have left the Middle Ages behind. We laugh uneasily at those who still believe that the God of flora, fauna, and galaxies has selected one people in particular as his favorite and given it funny tables, burning bushes, and a license to kill.
Oh those funny tables, not like virgin births or God dictating books to merchants in the desert or any of the things in serious religions. Well we don't have to go back to the middle ages - in 1851, the Norwegian constitution expressed it quite clearly:
Paragraph II - stated "the Evangelic-Lutheran religion will remain the official State religion. Jesuits and Monastic orders are not accepted. Jews are furthermore excluded from the Kingdom."
My goodness, as Don Rumsfeld might put it. Good thing this was so far in the past, or we'd have to question the legitimacy of the Norwegian state. And then if we consider that 1850 was the beginning of a major escalation of the slaughter and land theft from the Sami (Lapps), a theft that was continuing in 1980 when the Norwegian state violently suppressed Sami protests of the theft of some of the last of their land for a power plant. Do we realize that until the 1970s, the Swedes had laws limiting the size of houses that could be built by this despised minority? Why are there not teeming camps of angry Sami firing Silkworm missiles into Oslo or Stockholm? Is it because of the good treatment they received when enslaved and forced to work in the mines? No. It's because they were so thoroughly slaughtered and suppressed that the remnants are like the Apaches and Dakota, too close to the fate of the Tasmanians to be able to resist. But the morality of "legitimacy" has an amazing statute of limitations that is very beneficial if you have been thorough in your ethnic cleansing. You see, it was all so long ago that it has been washed out in the blood of the lamb. That's why the condition of the Dakota or the Tasmanians or the Jews of Europe or the Congolese or any of the other recipients of the tender mercies of Christian Europe is not relevant. It was a long time ago - at least a few decades or months if we consider the Brits in Basra. I can't move past this without referencing Gaarder's invocation of sacred international laws that have been ignored by the Jews because I find this commonplace of Colonial Morality to be especially telling. It is not a secret that international laws are routinely violated by every state that thinks it has an advantage in doing so. Europe recently collaborated with US illegal "extraordinary rendition". I don't notice any officials going to jail. And even Norway showed us that when a vital, a critical, a life-and-death matter such as the right to butcher whales is at stake, international laws can be ignored. Amazing how these violations of international law do not create issues of legitimacy either. So finally, we come down to the core meaning of Gaarder's argument, stripped of all the pious bullshit and fraudulent "international standards". That core meaning was expressed by (allegedly) Sharon in the famous interview with Amos Oz:
I personally don't want to be any better than Khomeini or Brezhnev or Ghadafi or Assad or Mrs. Thatcher, or even Harry Truman who killed half a million Japanese with two fine bombs. I only want to be smarter than they are, quicker and more efficient, not better or more beautiful than they are. Tell me, do the baddies of this world have a bad time? If anyone tries to touch them, the evil men cut his hands and legs off. They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don't suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear me instead of feeling sorry for me. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear my madness instead of admiring my nobility. Thank God for that. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered - just one! That we might go wild and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East! If anything would happen to your child, God forbid, you would talk like I do. Let them be aware in Washington, Moscow, Damascus and China that if one of our ambassadors is shot, or even a consul or the most junior embassy official, we might start World War Three just like that!"
Because 20 years later, it will all be long in the past. And here is the real sorrow. As long as Europeans wish to live in a fantasy world in which "international standards" and humanitarian rules apply to only others, there can be no world progress. The rich nations sit on top of the heap of bones and explain loudly to everyone in a transparent code that if you get your looting and murder done quickly and tidily, you can join the club. That is the way the world works. If you don't like it, you can either be honest or live in a fantasy, as long as the world let's you be comfortable there.


Display:
.
in criticism of Israel in the War of Attrition on innocent people of Lebanon, its destruction of Lebanese infrastructure, a new democracy after the Cedar Revolution and massacre its citizens in Qana is cause for you to attack ad hominum Sirocco and the Norwegian nation is very caustic and will not erase your virile hijack of another diary.

So we are all anti-Zionists and perhaps a pinch of anti-semites in Europe. Bull Shit!

  «« click to enlarge
Lebanese citizens inspect the destroyed bridge of Halat, which links Beirut to northern Lebanon, in a sharp expansion of its bombing, blasted highway bridges for the first time in the Christian heartland north of the capital during morning rush hour. AP Photo/Hussein Malla

We have raised our voices on all issues on war crimes and illegal wars, the Iraq invasion to follow Ariel Sharon's advice of a new, secure Middle-East. The US is just too close to the regional aggression and suppression of the Palestinian by the state of Israel.

Perhaps you should focus on the whaling issue and don't confuse the conflicts of past generations. Hey the Dutch were heavily involved with slavery and colonialism, looking forward to your attention and conviction of my ancestors.

Propaganda Hasbara Made in Israel

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY

by Oui on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 03:31:53 AM EST
How is it exactly that Israeli violations of human rights justifies European anti-semitism or whitewash of history?

The American "libertarians" have an interesting rhetorical trick in which they start with a fanatical defense of "property rights" and complaints about the "despotism" of any coercive state limitations on property rights, but declare all discussions of how the property was accumulated (e.g. from use of slaves, genocide of Indians etc.) to be off limits. See, that was all long ago and has nothing to do with people today.

I am a great admirer of the Netherlands, but while the Rijksmuseum is filled with the loot of Java, Dutch discussions of colonialism and oppression that do not take this history into account are not accurate. Royal-Dutch Shell is not a major player in world petroleum because of the good deeds of the Dutch state.
History does not start in Tel Aviv in 1948.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you Oui. I knew this individual was full of it, but I thought the peak was reached yesterday when, in a desperate attempt to excuse Israeli occupation and war crimes, he brought up Norwegian whaling (which he incorrectly claimed is in breach of int'l law). But no; now he confects a fictitious genocide on the Sami people ("thoroughly slaughtered and suppressed that the remnants are like the Apaches and Dakota, too close to the fate of the Tasmanians to be able to resist") whom he claims were "enslaved and forced to work in the mines."

Advice to other readers: don't call a Sami "Lapp" to his or her face, as citizen k in his arrogant ignorance does here.

For anyone interested in the real history of the Sami people in Norway and its cultural oppression by the authorities, Wikipedia gives a good overview. Note the lack of reference to any "slaughter" or "enslavement in mines."

The Sami crossed the borders freely until 1826, when the Norwegian/Finnish/Russian border was closed. Sami were still free to cross the border between Sweden and Norway according to inherited rights laid down in the Lapp Codicil of 1751 until 1940, when the border was closed due to Germany's occupation of Norway. After WWII, they were not allowed to return. Their summer pasturages are today used by Sami originating in Kautokeino.

For long periods of time, the Sami lifestyle reigned supreme in the north because of its unique adaptation to the Arctic environment, enabling Sami culture to resist cultural influences from the South. Indeed, throughout the 18th century, as Norwegians of Northern Norway suffered from low fish prices and consequent depopulation, the Sami cultural element was strengthened, since the Sami were independent of supplies from Southern Norway.

However, in the 19th century Norwegian authorities put the Sami culture under pressure in order to make the Norwegian language and culture universal. A strong economical development of the north also took place, giving Norwegian culture and language status. On the Swedish and Finnish side, the authorities were much less militant in their efforts, however, a strong economical development of the north lead to a weakening of status and economy for the Sami.

The strongest pressure took place from around 1900 to 1940, when Norway invested considerable money and effort to wipe out Sami culture. Notably, anyone who wanted to buy or lease state lands for agriculture in Finnmark, had to prove knowledge of Norwegian language. This also ultimately caused the dislocation in the 1920s, that strengthed the gap between local Sami groups, something still present today, and sometimes bears the character of an internal Sami ethnic conflict. Another factor was the heavy war destructions in Northern Finland and Northern Norway in 1944-45, destroying all existing houses and visible traces of Sami culture. After World War II, the pressure was relaxed somewhat.

The construction of the hydro-electric power station in Alta in 1979 brought Sami rights onto the political agenda. In August of 1986, the national anthem (Sámi soga lávlla) and flag (Sami flag) of the Sami people was created. In 1989, the first Sami parliament in Norway was elected. In 2005, the Finnmark Law was passed in the Norwegian parliament. This law gives the Sami parliament and the Finnmark Provincial council a joint responsibility of administering the land areas previously considered state property. These areas, 98% of the provincial area, that have always been used primarily by the Sami, now belong officially to the people of the province, Sami or Norwegian, and not the Norwegian state.

As I stated in that diary, I have my own reservations about the Gaarder essay, but its problems pale in comparison to citizen k's dishonest drivel.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 09:19:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Note the lack of reference to any "slaughter" or "enslavement in mines."

In the 1600s, silver ore was discovered near the Norrbotten area of Nasafjäll. The Sami were pressed into ore transport using their reindeer as draft animals. Those who refused to cooperate were keel-hauled under the ice.

http://www.arcticdiscovery.com/sami_culture.php

1635: The mine in Nasafjäll is opened and the Sami's is coerced to work both in the mine and with the transports of ore, those who refused to work was cruelly punished.
This slavemine is perhaps the worst atrocity committed by the Swedish government. Many Sami's flee from the the area, so a large part of the provinces previously used by Pite and Lule Sami's is depopulated. The government sends troops to prevent the Sami's from fleeing.

http://boreale.konto.itv.se/history.htm

and so on.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 09:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In other words, you have knowingly presented acts committed in Sweden by the Swedish government in the 1600s as acts committed in Norway by the Norwegian government in the 1800s or later. And if someone hadn't come by to call you out, this obfuscation would have stood.

Liar.

By the way, I have long since pointed out to you in the other diary that Norwegian whaling is not in fact contrary to international law, so quite apart from the sheer grotesqueness of comparing sustainable harvest of marine mammals to aggressive war and 39 years of brutal occupation, it's telling that you are desperate enough to repeat that falsehood here.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:04:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry. I didn't realize that actions taken by the common government of Norway and Sweden had nothing to do with Norwegians or Norwegian history.
by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The common government of Norway and Sweden? You're embarrassing yourself. Norway was a Danish colony at the time.

In 1349, the Black Death wiped out between 1/3 and 2/3 of the Norwegian population, causing a decline in both society and economics. During this decline, the Fairhair dynasty died out in 1387. Royal politics at the time resulted in several personal unions between the Nordic countries, eventually bringing the thrones of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden under the control of Queen Margrethe when the country entered into the Kalmar Union with Denmark and Sweden. Sweden declared its independence in 1523, but Norway remained under the Danish crown until 1814.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway



The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right about Sweden - I confused the dissolving of the union with Sweden with the 1814 independence. However, I don't see how it helps your case. The indigenous peoples of Northern scandanavia had their land stolen, suffered great starvations when their herding land was seized, were enslaved, had their language suppressed (esp. in Norway) and were, in sum, treated like most other indigenous tribal people who did not learn about armies and guns fast enough.

My case is that the difference between the Palestinians and the Saami is to a great extent due to the completeness of the defeat of the Saami. I don't see that you can dispute it by blaming the Swedes.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, over and above the significant historical falsehood which your diary entry still asserts -- you haven't edited or updated it -- the equivalence argument you are trying to construct makes no sense:

Europeans have oppressed indigenous minorities and colonized peoples in the past, therefore they cannot now protest the ongoing oppression (and worse) of other peoples?

By the same logic, it was hypocritical for Europeans to protest the Iraq war because of Europe's warlike past.

History is there to be learned from, not to be used a club to bludgeon legitimate objections to hukan rights violations in the present.

Here's a quote from another essay I have translated, by Per Nyholm writing in Jyllands-Posten back in April:

Two world wars hence a number of things are up for debate, but hardly that the origins of Israel lie in a European understanding of race, religion and language as the foundation of the state. One either belonged to the dominant people, enjoying the privileges of state, or else one belonged to a minority and had to make do as best one could.
    Prior to World War I, the Hungarians ruled the Croats, Slovakians, and Romanians with an iron fist. Then followed the Greater Romanian Kingdom, which treated its Hungarians and Gypsies as third rate citizens. The Czechs would despise the Slovakians, the Serbs would oppress Croats and Albanians, the Greeks would terrorize their Macedonians and Turks. The madness culminated in the German genocide against the Jews.

[snip]

Radical rightwing politicians like Avigdor Lieberman declare their willingness to deport tens of thousands of Israeli citizens. Why? Because they are Arabs, not Jews. Lieberman is an immigrant from Moldova. To hear him speak is like hearing the Iron Guard on the march. There are many like him.

If the elections in Israel and the Palestinian territories are to have a common meaning, it must be that the time is ripe to abandon the old European ways.



The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 03:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europeans have oppressed indigenous minorities and colonized peoples in the past, therefore they cannot now protest the ongoing oppression (and worse) of other peoples?

I don't say or believe that. Anyone is free to speak and the truth of what they say does not depend on what their ancestors or country has done.

Listen, I have also heard this same argument in France. To say that, for example St. Dennis, is the source of a great deal of crime is to "protest". To say it is so criminal that the residents should be deported is to apply a false moral standard. And to say that the problems of the neighborhood are due to the inherent criminality of Arabs is to be racist.

Israel is doing terrible things - no problem, even agree.

Israel is so far beyond normal state behavior that it should be abolished as a state - double standard.

Israel does these terrible things because the Jews are evil people who rejected Christ's teachings - anti-semitic.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't say or believe that. Anyone is free to speak and the truth of what they say does not depend on what their ancestors or country has done.

Fine, they what's the point of your characterization of Gaarder from the other diary:

A citizen of one of the worlds richest nations, wallowing in oil wealth while half the world starves, smugly decries the barbarity of someone else.

More choice quotes on speaking out while Norwegian:

If Norwegians were pacifists and truly offended by Israel's war in Lebanon, they could station a couple of thousand observers in Beruit. If they were not pacifist, and given Norways role as an arms exporter and NATO member one should doubt, they could station a couple of thousand soldiers with anti-aircraft guns in Beruit. In the absence of such moves and even calls for such moves, it's all talk.

Bwana is so revolted by the behavior of those lower societies. Norway is willing to break international law for the critical national interest of killing whales.

And today, a four centuries old story about Samis in Sweden, plus an entirely non-atrocious one about a power dam in 1982.

These are used to create an equivalence argument to the effect that it's double standards for Gaarder to write as he does. For instance, because Norway hasn't militarily intervened in the Lebanon war, it is too, as you put it, a partner in the barbarity. Well, that is the kind of bullshit I have called you on.

But fundamentally, I think the problem is that you are misinterpreting what Gaarder says:

Israel is so far beyond normal state behavior that it should be abolished as a state

He doesn't say that. He explicitly states:

We recognize the state of Israel of 1948, but not the one of 1967. It is the state of Israel that fails to recognize, respect, or defer to the internationally lawful Israeli state of 1948.

As a result, Gaarder predicts in the style of an ancient prophet, Israel may in the future be abolished wholesale. But that's not what Gaarder recommends. I do think he should have been clearer, and this is one of the essays's flaws; but you have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

On your other point of exegesis I'm more inclined to agree, and I haven't disputed criticism of the essay that centers on this:

Israel does these terrible things because the Jews are evil people who rejected Christ's teachings - anti-semitic.

While he doesn't claim that "Jews are evil," he clearly does tie Israel's crimes to Judaic religion. And this is where we agree he goes wrong.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are two different points. Point one is "smugness" of Gaarders essay. For me, there is no separation of his "Christian mercy" from his condemnation. Essentially, he is saying "these people, these miserable people, don't have our moral values of mercy, they have a barbaric superstition of vengence". That is, Gaarder is contrasting the supposed high moral standing of "us" with the immoral standing of "them". Gaarder brings up his own moral standing and makes it an issue. He is not just critiquing Israel, he is contrasting Israeli morality with "our" morality.

Point two is feigned helplessness. I'm horrified by what my government is doing. But lots of other countries have great resources, powerful armed forces, and so on, but pretend to be unable to take any action. There are limits to what the US and its clients can do. Our government is run by crazy people, but even they will not attack a NATO ally. Waving your hands in despair instead of sending a troop carrier is a moral choice - maybe a good one, I don't know. But it's a choice, not a necessity.  Norway could intervene militarily in Lebananon, with great daring. France could with less daring. Norway could open its borders to Lebanese refugees at some cost. Norwegians who believe as Gaardner claims to believe that Israel must be abolished could call for their government to open doors to disaffected Israelis. But NOBODY advocates anything that would cost themselves anything. Acting morally and paying the price for it is always what someone else should do.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 07:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know that I have a unfortunately brusque writing style and I apologize for it. But look how angry you are when I question the generosity of Norwegian aid, and how puzzled you are by my strong reaction to someone arguing that Jews are primitive savages and indulging in fantasies about helpless jewish refugees (snails with no shells) at the tender mercies of their former enemies (and I am not fooled for a moment by his fraudulent protestations).

For Jews, even those of us who are at most ambivalent about the whole Zionist experiment, the spectacle of a "humanist" calling for Jews to be disarmed is a big red warning sign.

If you can be so easily offended by a minor slight to the honor of Norway think about what it is like for prospective unshelled snails (for I don't have much trust that the ones who will chase such refugees will distinguish between species of Jews)  to see this interesting essay that you are "ambivalent" about.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 09:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, you can have the last word; my final thoughts on the piece of writing is posted here.

I too apologize for my at times overly strident tone.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 06:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, you really should change the title if nothing else. The derogation is grating.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 03:34:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The construction of the hydro-electric power station in Alta in 1979 brought Sami rights onto the political agenda.

That's a very nice way of putting it. I hope the Israeli ambassador is taking notes.


The preliminary stop in Alta lasted until a very cold day in February 1982. The Norwegian
government sent a police force of a thousand police officers to Alta. The police force carried away all
the demonstrators. That day could be declared the coldest in Saami history, and an extremely cold day
in Norwegian history as well.

http://www.dams.org/docs/kbase/contrib/soc208.pdf

How about "The incursion into Lebanon brought Shiite rights onto the political agenda."? Sounds very nice and polite.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:22:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the best you can do? I have to laugh...

  1. This took place on Norwegian ground, which noone disputes.
  2. No blood was shed and no demonstrator even beaten.
  3. Many, maybe most, protesters were ethnic Norwegians.
  4. The Alta affair, avidly debated for years, did in fact bring Sami rights onto the political agenda, preparing the ground for today's situation where 98 percent of the land and water in Finnmark county is effectively managed by the Sami Parliament.

So in your considered judgment, the above is such a grave crime against humanity as to preclude any ethnic Norwegian from objecting to this:

A little sick maybe?

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
why are you bothering with this?  just a question.
by BooMan on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 11:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trust me, I've asked myself the same.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 11:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "Sharon" argument in the Amos Oz interview is that Israel should stop screwing around with small scale human rights violations and just get it over with and establish facts on the ground, so to speak. The argument goes on to say that in another few years, it will all be ancient history. Nobody will care - the land will be Israels without dispute just as the Saami land is Norways without dispute because there is no military force on the other side of the dispute. Then the Israelis can perhaps establish a reservation for the surviving Palestinians to continue their picturesque way of life.

Obviously, you agree with "Sharon". I don't. but you represent the clear majority view and the one that has the force of history behind it.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 11:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So in your considered judgment, the above is such a grave crime against humanity as to preclude any ethnic Norwegian from objecting to this

Objecting isn't the same thing as declaring that the perpetrator has no right to exist whatsoever. Perhaps the diarist's specific claims about Norway are debatable. The larger point is that Israel is held to a different standard than other nations, and its crimes are equated with thousands of years of behavior of Jewish people.

ITMFA!

by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 11:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps the diarist's specific claims about Norway are debatable.

No, they are factual falsehoods, ranging from the relatively trivial (Norwegian whaling is illegal) to the rather serious (Norway has slaughtered, enslaved, and nearly annihilated an indigenous minority).

Objecting isn't the same thing as declaring that the perpetrator has no right to exist whatsoever.

That's not what Gaarder says. He says that Israel has no right to exist in its present, post-1967 form. He also cautions that it may cease to exist in any form unless it mends its ways, but he's not advocating that.

As I have noted from the get-go, there are problematic aspects to his essay, which includes rhetoric that can be criticized as anti-semitic. But the way citizen k has gone about this is just completely ridiculous.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 12:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of Norwegian history, I am pretty much ignorant. I understand why it would outrage you if someone is spreading giant falsehoods about Norway. Can you understand why it would outrage other people when  anti-Semitism cloaked in moralistic rhetoric is held up as a good example of a thoughtful critique of Israel? I didn't see criticism of Gaardner's anti-Semitism in your original diary, merely "ambivalence." I admit I didn't read all the comments though. I have no stomach for all the ill will around here these days.

ITMFA!
by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 12:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have I ever called it "a good example of a thoughtful critique"? I believe the term I used was 'excoriating'.

As to my own view of the essay, here's what I wrote:

I am ambivalent about how this piece seems to lay the crimes of Israel at the feet of Judaism, implying that the Jewish religion has failed to absorb the humanism and universalism of Christianity. I think a more apt perspective is the following.

The ideology of hardcore Zionism has evolved into a religion unto itself, bearing a striking resemblance to the pre-Talmudic Judaism of old. However, unlike the latter, it courts a tribal war god that really does exist, and which, unlike Yahweh, demands no sacrifice or expiation of its chosen people, the Jewish citizens of Israel. This God of Zionism is the world's only superpower, the USA.

Yet its blind patronage may not last forever. And without it, Israel will reap the whirlwind.

That's criticism in my book. Too mildly expressed? Perhaps; but hardly an endorsement either.

I considered the essay interesting enough to translate and post, partly in its own right and partly, as BooMan put it, for what it represents.  

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 01:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well if you didn't endorse his point of view, why feature it in a diary? It certainly appeared to me to be an endorsement of his point of view. The diary itself wasn't critical at all and your criticism, in a comment, so mild as not to seem criticism at all, more like explication. I accept your reason for posting the essay though, and hope you understand the objections.

ITMFA!
by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 01:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there are many valid ways to react to the essay. MarekNYC's furious rejection is one; it's exaggerated to my mind, but fair enough, and I haven't objected to it. What I have taken issue with is citizen k's ad hominem attacks on the author for his nationality, and the mix of absurdities and lies conjured up to "substantiate" that.


The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 01:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that one anonymous blogger earns your detailed, time-consuming, point-by-point rebuttal but anti-Semitic absurdities from a famous author earns your translation and publishing.

ITMFA!
by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Anti-semitic absurdities' are your words, not mine.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

ITMFA!
by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't speak for Sirocco, and he has made comments that I would not make.  But one thing that is frustrating when talking about Israel, is that it is so hard to get across a point-of-view which is primarily concerned with Israel's security.

In other words, for twenty something years, many on the left have been arguing that the settlements are a long term drain on Israel's security, for a whole range of reasons.  And one thing 9/11 made clear, and was intended to make clear, is that there are consequences for America for what Israel does, and what Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia do.

Bush and Sharon pursued a totally different path than the one Clinton/Rabin/Barak chose, and it has led to disaster.  

But, too often, when we argue that Israel's opponents won't push them into the sea and that terrorism will diminish if they get out of the occupied territories, we are met with militaristic rhetoric and charges of anti-Semitism.  

And even within this matrix, there are many people that are fed up and might correctly be called anti-Israel, but not anti-Semitic.

The most anti-Israel people I know are American Jews.  I have one friend who is so vitriolic in his abuse of Israel that I told him if I said the same thing, he would call me an anti-Semite.  And he agreed with me.  

For my part, I can't see any conventional threat to Israel for any of their neighbors.  At the same time, they can't stop rocket attacks.  If they want to live in peace they are going to have to make a deal.  And excalating the violence and bringing us in to do what they cannot will just make matters worse for everyone.  

Sometimes, critiques of Israel's policies really have Israel's best interests at heart.  I want peace for Israel.  And I don't think they will ever get it acting the way they are now.

by BooMan on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 01:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you on Israel's long-term security. Yet I also concur (if on nothing else) with As'ad of the Angry Arab that the US mainstream discourse is almost solely concerned with identifying the best interests of Israel. Even to garden-variety US Democrats, hamfisted oppression of Palestinians or savage war in Lebanon are unfortunate not so much because they are wrong, but because they weaken Israel's long-term security, boost international terrorism, and so on and so forth. There's something disturbing about that point of view.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005 - AT - gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
even saying what I am willing to say places me outside of acceptable parameters of debate in this country and could be suicide for a politician.  I do find that disturbing.  But I cannot ignore it.
by BooMan on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 09:04:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Note that I have repeatedly stated I am not apologizing for or excusing Israel's actions. What I am objecting to is (a) recycling of traditional anti-semitic arguments (e.g. that the Jews rejected Christs message of mercy) in the guise of humanism, and (b) the evasion of systemic approach to morality and power. These are related.

The "Sharon" argument reported by Amos Oz is grossly immoral, but absolutely correct - it is a restatement of the Athenians discussion with the Melians and has nothing to do with the religious traditions of Jews or Moslems. To confront the logic of that argument, you need to do more than try to sanitize the behavior of the Powers.

by citizen k (trout_in_milk -> yahoo.it) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But, too often, when we argue that Israel's opponents won't push them into the sea and that terrorism will diminish if they get out of the occupied territories, we are met with militaristic rhetoric and charges of anti-Semitism.

I agree. But at the same time there is a tendency to deny that some of Israel's opponents do insist on Israel's destruction. Perhaps the most visible recent example was the debate over Ahmadinejad's comments about wiping Israel off the map.

And even within this matrix, there are many people that are fed up and might correctly be called anti-Israel, but not anti-Semitic.

Assuming that by anti-Israel you mean denying Israel's right to exist then I think it's walking a very fine line. When challenged on that this sort of 'anti-Israel' person will generally say that they don't see any reason why there should be any right to a Jewish state. While this was arguable sixty years ago, today it is no different from questioning the right of Arabs/Muslims, and only Arabs/Muslims of having Arab states, or of black majority states - sorry folks, plenty of you have done horrible things in the name of Arab nationalism and/or Islam, so this whole idea of Arabs running there own states is a mistake, and if you don't accept that then you deserve our bombs and missiles, same goes for African states.

The most anti-Israel people I know are American Jews.  I have one friend who is so vitriolic in his abuse of Israel that I told him if I said the same thing, he would call me an anti-Semite.  And he agreed with me.

That's normal. The threshold for saying that a white person is a racist tends to be lower than for saying that a black person is self-hating or an Uncle Tom - is Cosby ok? How about some of those black Republicans, and then what about the guy down south expressing his love for the neo-confederates?  

by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:36:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But even if Ahmadinejad said that he wants to wipe Israel off the map, or that it shouldn't exist, he has no means to do it.  Even a suitcase nuke set off in Tel Aviv would only invite a much heavier response from Israel, and possibly the United States.  I don't ask people to ignore the threat of Iran, but to look at it with calm eyes.

It's Israel's strategy right now that is straining their traditionally decent relationships with the Sunni nations that border them and posed the traditional threat.  It's hard to see how this is not hurting their national security.

I agree that, while it might be satisfying to fantasize about a world where the Jewish state was somewhere less controversial, or didn't exist at all, it is really beside the point now, sixty years later.  Israel isn't going anywhere and they are not going to be wiped off the map.

Their threats are demographic, and they do face a threat of nuclear attack, as do we.  The best way to diffuse that threat is to do a deal along the lines of the 2000 deal.  If they have to give up somewhat more, it is worth it.  

They can't keep going down this neo-conservative path because we are losing and their public support is going to start to evaporate.  

The biggest threat to Israel is that America begins to view Israel with the same jaundiced eye as the rest of the world.  And we face the same threat in reverse.

Peace is not appeasement, when you have such fundamental military strengths.  Getting sucked into expensive occupations is the way to lose that military advantage.  

It is really a pro-Israel way of looking at things.

by BooMan on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:51:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right Booman. It's really hard to see what exactly Israel's current actions, or our support thereof are supposed to accomplish. The "war on terrorism" is so wrongheaded in so many ways.

ITMFA!
by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 03:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The most anti-Israel people I know are American Jews. I know, I'm one of them, and I've had the same discussion with one of my friends who defends Israel. I know that some critiques really have Israel's best interests at heart. And I agree with you Booman, that the settlements are a huge problem. I abhor the settlements.

I also know that threads of anti-Semitism run through the fabric of European and American civilization. I'm used to it. It's very difficult to tease out the threads and these days, near-impossible. It's sad.  

ITMFA!

by librarylil (librarylil at g mail etc.) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ Booman Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]
Menu
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password





Proud member of

The Liberal Blog Network

a FeedBurner Network


Advertise in The Liberal Blog Network

Subscribe to this network

A-List Blogger

Find textbooks at Alibris!

NOTE: Overstock bests Amazon's prices and is "blue."

THE BOOKS WITH "BUZZ":
______________

Learn the real story behind the WMD in Iraq:

The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism
by Ron Suskind

Read Barack Obama's vision for America:

The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream
by Barack Obama

DaveW recommends:

I Am a Strange Loop
by Douglas Hofstadter

Need some laughs?

I Am America (and So Can You!)
by Stephen Colbert

rae recommends:

Dark Ages America: The Final Phase of Empire
by Morris Berman.

On BooMan’s shelf:

The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created a War Without End
by Peter W. Galbraith

This looks interesting:

Adventure Divas
by Holly Morris

Here’s a good one from
Elizabeth Gilbert:

Eat Pray Love
by Elizabeth Gilbert

"Crash" * Best Motion Picture, Academy Awards * Only $11.79 at Overstock * 2006 SAG Winner, Best Ensemble

Check out
Powell's new section:
NEW FAVORITES

Selected new arrivals at 30% off

Recommended by Indianadem and ejmw:
The Conscience of a Liberal
by Paul Wellstone

From northcountry’s bookshelf:

The New Golden Age:
The Coming Revolution Against
Political Corruption and Economic Chaos
by Ravi Batra

A novel about contractors in Iraq from the woman that runs The Spy That Billed Me:

Outsourced: A Novel
from RJ Hillhouse.


SOTW-120x90
Download Sleeper Cell on iTunes (Better than "24") Download Weeds on iTunes (Hilarious 1/2-hour adult comedy starring Mary-Louise Parker) Download Late Nite with Conan O'Brien on iTunes
John Belushi - SNL
Download South Park on iTunes
Verve Vault

James Hunter - People Gonna Talk:
James Hunter - People Gonna Talk
icon


Great Deals
----- * ^ * -----

Find mystery novels by Nancy Pickard ("Kansas")



Challenging Empire: How People, Governments, and the UN Defy US Power by Phyllis Bennis (interviewed on DN!)


Featured by Keith Olbermann, New (Powell's Sale): Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum (whose other books merit serious consideration)


"Explosive" State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration
by James Risen


The book the CIA doesn't want you to read: Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA's Key Field Commander
Larry Johnson's review


BT's all-time best seller:

PERMACULTURE:
A Designers' Manual

$79.95 * Sale: $59.95


Unequal Sisters: A Multicultural Reader in U.S. Women's History (Third Edition)


The Undercover Economist: Exposing Why the Rich Are Rich, the Poor Are Poor And Why You Can Never Buy a Decent Used Car!


The Worst Hard Time: The Untold Story of Those Who Survived the Great American Dust Bowl
by Timothy Egan


Green Press Initiative
----- * ^ * -----


Journalistas: 100 Years of the Best Writing and Reporting by Women Journalists by Eleanor Mills * NYT review


Bury Me Standing: the Gypsies & Their Journey


1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus



Brokeback Mountain
by Annie Proulx
----- * ^ * -----
Check out Powell's
"At The Movies"


Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World by Noam Chomsky (Power & Terror: Post 9-11 Talks)


The Price of Privilege:

How Parental Pressure and
Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of
Disconnected and Unhappy Kids

by Madeline Levine


Save 35-70% on
name brand clothing,
footwear, and outdoor gear
at SierraTradingPost.com

:





We listened to PEN American Center's "State of Emergency" and found 1940s books by Curzio Malaparte only at Alibris. (Selection (MP3) excerpted from "The Skin.")

Alibris - Books You Thought You'd Never Find
Banned Books * Are you a fan of Film Noir, Art House, Documentaries or Hong Kong Action? * Searching for a long-lost children's book or a first printing of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue on vinyl? Find it at Alibris!

:
:
www.Patagonia.com



Booman Tribune Homepage
admin@boomantribune.com
powered by Scoop

A-List Blogger

Blogarama - The Blog Directory

More blogs about Blogs at Technorati.

Listed on BlogShares

© 2007 Booman Tribune