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Is Torture Christian?

by BooMan
Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 11:55:02 AM EST

Hilzoy comments on Bill Frist's latest moves:

Wow. After all sorts of unspeakable bills have passed the Senate under his leadership, here is where Bill Frist is finally going draw the line: he will not allow limitations on the administration's ability to torture people, or to violate treaties our country has solemnly sworn to abide by. Making it illegal for CIA officials to keep people standing for 40 hours, or to hold them in rooms cooled down to 50 degrees while dousing them with water, or to deprive them of sleep, even when a pretty impressive array of intelligence officials say that these techniques don't work, and an even more impressive group of retired generals say allowing them would put our soldiers at risk: that's just too much for him to swallow.

Meanwhile, Carpetbagger pulls a quote.

McCain's resistance to Bush's plan is also drawing fire from so-called religious leaders in the conservative movement. The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition and a vocal supporter of the administration's proposal, said, "This very definitely is going to put a chilling effect on the tremendous strides he has made in the conservative evangelical community."

Reverend Sheldon is saying that evangelical Christians will abandon McCain because he opposes torturing people, or putting them to death after a trial where they were not allowed to see the evidence against them. I hope Reverend Sheldon is wrong. I would hope for more acknowledgment of Jesus's message about turning the other cheek, doing unto other as you would have them do to you, and the blessedness of peacemakers.

I don't expect that anyone can live up to the ideals that Jesus laid out. We certainly need to be vigilant about protecting our national security. But torturing people and using kangaroo courts is not the way to do it, and it certainly is not Christian. Or, it shouldn't be.

Is Torture Christian? | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Is Torture Christian? (4.00 / 2)

First, I would guess that legalizing torture would mean more casualties. If I knew that I was likely to be tortured (possibly even to death), I would probably resist capture by any means necessary. I'd rather go down in a hail of gunfire or by blowing myself and as many enemies as I can, rather than be waterboarded and beaten for months.

Secondly, there is no moral justification to criticize any group who captures and tortures American soldiers or civilians. Thousands of innocent civilians have been captured and tortured by the US government, making all Americans a target for retaliation.

Violent torture has never been proven to produce any useful information. What it is very good at producing is false confessions and inaccurate information as the torture victim attempts to tell their torturer whatever they want to hear to end their agony. Besides, the experiences of POWs will tell you that some people cannot be broken by torture, if they have a strong enough will then you can torture them to death and not get a scrap of useful information.

As for the Rev. Sheldon? The religious right disgusts me and has turned me quite strongly against religion in general. Considering the amount of blood that has been shed in whatever god's name and the surprising amounts of justification for holy war and attacking unbelievers in whatever holy book you want to read, organized religion lost any claim to speak on behalf of peace a long time ago. Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus, it's an imperial religion explicitly modeled on Roman government and designed to keep people dominated by a small group of ecclesiatical elites. I'm surprised that anyone is still surprised when Christian leaders support war, torture, violence, etc, given the long history of holy wars, crusades against foreign non-believers and heretical Christians, burning of witches, etc. The only way to be a Christian or Jew or Muslim against war, violence, torture, etc, is to accept that large parts of your holy book are complete and utter bullshit. You can cherry-pick out the pacifist parts, but there are even more parts advocating violence in the name of God.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own. ----- George Carlin

by Poeschek (n_poeschek@yahoo.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:37:09 PM EST

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 1)

In fairness, the New Testament does not contain any jihadist language. It is a book written by people suffering under Roman subjugation. Their ethics reflect this. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. If someone slaps you on the cheek, turn the other cheek to them so it can slapped as well.

Give up all your worldly possessions, and follow the way of the Lord.

These are not warrior ethics. And that is the point. The Israeli Jews of the first century were not happy with being ruled by pagans. They carried out a vicious insurgency, eventually leading the Romans to destroy the temple in Jerusalem (in 70CE) and then banned from entering Jerusalem in 135 CE.

Hadrian attempted to root out Judaism, which he saw as the cause of continuous rebellions. He prohibited the Torah law, the Jewish calendar and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scroll was ceremoniously burned on the Temple Mount. At the former Temple sanctuary, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea, he wiped the name off the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina, as an insulting reminder of the Jews' ancient enemies the Philistines, long-extinct by then. He reestablished Jerusalem as the Roman pagan polis of Aelia Capitolina, and Jews were forbidden from entering it.

That is the context within which a schismatic sect of Jews and Greek converts built up a pacifistic and communal ethos that became Christianity.

It was a philosophy of non-resistance and otherworldliness, and it stressed social services. Kind of like a pacifist Hezbollah.

Obviously, this all changed when it became the official religion of the Roman Empire 250 years later. But don't blame it on the book.

by BooMan on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

Not true, Boo. The New Testament is full of violence along with the pacifism. Those have been widely quoted so I won't bother unless you want to see them yet again. More relevant is Luke 16:17 (NAB): "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." In other words, the New Testament, far from renouncing the atrocities of the Old, explicitly upholds every word.

Can't have it both ways.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 01:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

yes. I want to see them again.

The violence in the NT is reserved for the damned and is meted out by God.

Show me where there is a call to arms for followers of Jesus? Show me where they are instructed to smite unbelievers? Show me any violence?

Bootstrapping the NT to the OT is not what I'm talking about. That has always been a problem. But that is different from saying the NT (alone) has any jihadist language. It doesn't.

by BooMan on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 02:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to `set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and `a man's enemies will be those of his own household."

That's the classic I guess. Much of the rest is rather politically brilliant in the way it calls down curses on the unbelievers without explicitly telling the followers to make it so. For example, Matthew 15 4: "For God said, '(D)HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH." Not his fault if the faithful decide to help God's plan along. As they've been doing for around 2000 years.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 02:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

This is largely true, although the big problem has always been that Jesus is never recorded as saying that he repudiates the violence or bigotry of the Old Testament. Christian religions are thus free to cherry pick which elements of the Old Testament they like and don't like.

I completely agree that the Koran is a far more violent text though. I don't remember where I saw it, but I saw a list of the times that the Koran calls on believers to kill infidels and I seem to remember it being 4 or 5 pages of quotes.

Essentially, we've allowed this bit of Iron Age thinking to remain fundamental to the thoughts of billions in this modern world, which seems strange. We have expanded our minds in so many ways, but religion manages to march on...

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own. ----- George Carlin

by Poeschek (n_poeschek@yahoo.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 1)

Maybe McCain could get back in tight with the "Traditional Values Coalition" by coming out in favor of scourging and crucifixion. Torture doesn't get much more traditional than that!

Just a thought...

by Primordial Ooze on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:16:58 PM EST

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

He must be a good guy--look, he's got a halo!

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060919-122133-1476r.htm

by Renee in Ohio on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:18:29 PM EST

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

Ha-somebody must have shot the photo that way on purpose!

'soup

by homemadesoup (homitsuatyahoodotcom) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 1)

I would hope the "mainstream" Christian institutions would be asking your question with all the volume and power and aggression they can muster. But that ain't happened yet, so I see no alternative except dismissing Christianity as hopelessly hypocritical and irrelevant. the enemy Jesus had nightmares about.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:18:44 PM EST

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

It's not irrelevent.

Christianity is incredibly diverse.

The problem, as I see it, is that there are two different kinds of Christians. There are those that concentrate on the possibility of personal redemption, salvation, and everlasting life. And there are those that concentrate on the ethical teaching of Jesus, including his hostility to hypocrites that wield religious power.

The first group seems deaf to the ethical message, except as it applies to people's sexuality.

The second group seems indifferent to the perils of hell or the promise of heaven.

The GOP is filled with Christians of the first type, and the Dems are filled with Christians of the second type.

by BooMan on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Torture Christian? (none / 0)

The problem isn't that there are [way more than] two groups. The problem is that that the ethical groups, if you mean the "mainstream", have been consistently unwilling or unable to argue the case that the likes of Sheldon and Phillips and Falwell and Dobson and all the rest are not Christians. For 2000 years the torturers and liars and con-artists have used the Christian brand for their own wealth and power essentially unopposed on religious grounds.

I'm well aware that there are liberal Christians who oppose the bigotry and hatefulness of the fundie right, but they are unwilling to do so on theological grounds -- to say that the other side are in fact the enemies of Christianity as derived from Jesus. Part of this is simply the genetic wimpiness of liberals, but I think a larger part is that it's better to have more Christians than to "challenge their faith". Anymore than Ford would attack the idea of cars, no matter how bitterly it might diss Chrysler.

People like me who see Christianity as a historic movement with some worthwhile contributions and mostly ridiculous mystical claims are not in a position to argue the theology or Christian cred of the fundies. Only other Christians can do that. As long as there is no theological contest -- OK, religious war if you will -- waged all-out by the "mainstream", Christianity is divided into the ones who advance the goals of what an Antichrist would have to look like, and the ones who are too worried about their sectarian brand to fight them. I call that irrelevant. Without significant allies within Christianity, the only meaningful battle is to work against all of it.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 01:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a family thing (none / 0)

Look in most courtrooms -- on the defendant's side, you'll see family members supporting the defendant, even after he/she is convicted. You rarely see a family member say, "Yeah, he was a stinking jerk and he finally got what was coming to him."

It's hard for those of us who follow the path of the Christ to realize that so many of our brothers and sisters have read the same passages that we have, and yet come out with diametrically opposed beliefs. And they probably feel the same way about me and mine. There's also the matter that, unlike those on the Religious Reich, we prefer to leave the judgement up to God rather than coming out with our own condemnations -- we're too busy trying to get the logs out of our own eyes before going after anyone else's specks.

What saddens me is that statements like this from Lou Sheldon and others (what's-his-face from Family Research Council had another choice comment) are used to condemn Christianity as a whole...just as the pronouncements of Islamic fundamentalists are used to condemn Islam, or even the speechifying of our current President is used in the world to condemn Americans as a whole, even those of us who didn't vote for the asshole...

-- Walking In Darkness --

by Cali Scribe on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 02:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a family thing (none / 0)

Cali, I don't want to argue religion with you because you're obviously one of the good guys. I'll only suggest that you rethink your belief that these pigs are your "brothers and sisters". Why? Because they, like the Devil, quote scripture for power and profit? Is that really all it takes?

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 02:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On the flip side (none / 0)

of Lou Sheldon, let's also mention the members of the National Religious Campaign Against Torture (NRCAT), who came out with their first full page ad back in June opposing torture:

Religious Leaders Urge U.S. to Ban Torture -- WaPost, June 13 2006

List of affiliated organizations:

Participating Members

* Adventist Peace Fellowship
* American Baptist Churches, USA
* Baltimore Monthly Meeting of Friends, Stony Run
* Eighth Day Faith Community (Washington, DC)
* The Episcopal Church
* Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
* Fellowship of Reconciliation
* First Congregational Church, Berkeley, CA
* Friends Committee on National Legislation
* Friends of Jesus Chruch (Washington, DC)
* Islamic Society of North America
* Jewish Council for Public Affairs
* Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns
* National Council of Churches
* No2Torture
* Pax Christi USA
* The Presbyterian Church (USA)
* Presbyterian Peace Fellowship
* Quaker House of Fayetteville, NC
* Rabbis for Human Rights
* Rahway and Plainfield Monthly Meeting, Religious Society of Friends (Plainfield, NJ)
* Reclaiming the Prophetic Voice
* Rock Spring Congregational UCC - Board of Social Action (Arlington, VA)
* The Shalom Center
* Shalom United Church of Christ (New Haven, CT)
* Union for Reform Judaism
* Unitarian Universalist Service Committee
* United Church of Christ
* The United Methodist General Board of Church and Society
* Washington Region Religious Campaign Against Torture
* World Sikh Council - American Region

Endorsing Members

* Association of Christian Churches of South Dakota
* California Council of Churches
* Conference of Major Superiors of Men
* Disciples Advocacy and Witness Network of the Christian Church Capital Area
* Disciples Justice Action network (Disciples of Christ)
* Evangelicals for Social Action
* First Unitarian Society of Minneapolis
* Hartford Monthly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
* The Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard University
* Jewish Peace Fellowship
* Leadership Conference of Women Religious
* Maine Council of Churches
* Metropolitan Community Churches Global Justice Team
* Multifaith Voices for Peace & Justice (Palo Alto, CA)
* Nauset Interfaith Association (Cape Cod, MA)
* Pennsylvania Council of Churches
* Sandy Spring Friends Meeting (Sandy Spring, MD)
* Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations
* University Presbyterian Church-Mission and Peacemaking Committee (Baton Rouge, LA)
* Washington Association of Churches
* Wisconsin Council of Churches
* Witness/Washington Office, Church of the Brethren

Adjunct Members

* Amnesty International USA
* Bellevue/NYU Program for Survivors of Torture
* Bill of Rights Defense Committee
* The Center for Justice & Accountability
* Humans Right First
* Coalition for Peace Action, Princeton, NJ
* PeaceAction Montgomery
* Torture Abolition and Survivors Support Coalition International

(tip o' the nib to Pastordan over at Street Prophets for the info...)

If numbers count, there are far more of us than there are of Lou Sheldon and his ilk...

-- Walking In Darkness --

by Cali Scribe on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 01:31:06 PM EST

Is Torture Christian? | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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