Booman Tribune

Response to Armando

by BooMan
Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:18:12 PM EST

Armando has a novel defense of Hillary Clinton's 'have-it-both-ways' style of campaigning. Apparently, John F. Kennedy did it too. And so did every other politician that has ever come down the pike. Which is, of course, both true and not very revealing. It's all a matter of degree. Did Paul Wellstone ever evade a question or give a misleading answer? Sure. A good politician knows how to avoid needlessly injuring their chances. But if Paul Wellstone stands at one extreme for straightforwardness, Hillary Clinton certainly stands at the other.

Armando gives us an example of bad punditry, where Charlie Hurt and Mike Allen manage to portray Rudy Guiliani as a straight talker and Hillary Clinton as a waffler. But what does Guiliani's dishonesty have to do with Clinton's? Can't they both be full of crap? Just because the press gives a free pass to Republicans doesn't mean I have some obligation to do the same for Democrats.

I asked a series of questions, which Armando lists but doesn't even attempt to answer.

Was Michael Dukakis a tough guy? Could you believe Bill Clinton? Which Al Gore was going to show up to which debate? Where did John Kerry stand on the war?

On the one hand, the answers to these questions were not the most important questions in these campaigns. On the other hand, there is no question that Dukakis was not a tough guy. He wouldn't fight back. There's no question that Bill Clinton couldn't keep a promise and had an almost compulsive problem telling the truth. There's no question that Al Gore's three debate performances in 2000 were a study in multiple personality disorder. And there is no question that John Kerry could not articulate a coherent position against the continued occupation of Iraq.

In spite of these flaws, they all deserved to be elected because their opponents had different, more severe, flaws. But my essay wasn't about Republican flaws. It was about the flaws of Democrats. In particular, it was about Pat Caddell's insight that many Wallace Democrats were attracted to the candidacy of Robert Kennedy because he was a "tough guy", who you "could believe", and trust to "protect the little guy." A Wallace Democrat, especially a southern Wallace Democrat, could be expected to despise Robert Kennedy because he had forced the integration of the University of Alabama and otherwise supported the civil rights movement. But they were willing to overlook their extreme differences on policy because they perceived that he was tough, meant what he said, and would look out for the average Joe.

Armando insists that Hillary Clinton is tough and is perceived as tough.

There is no doubt that Hillary Clinton is perceived as tough. Indeed, that is one thing the "castrating bitch" GOP meme has accomplished.

He's just begging the question. As soon as she was sharply questioned in the debates she crumpled. And then she sent our her supporters to accuse the big, bad men of ganging up on her...playing the damsel in distress. Maybe that is good politics, but ballbusting it ain't.

The issue isn't whether Clinton it tough or not. The issue is whether she can pass the Wallace Democrat test. Can she attract voters who might disagree with her on social issues by meaning what she says, showing them that she will stick up for their interests, and being strong?

You be the judge.

I'm sorry, but that is just a devastating advertisement. And it isn't going to go away. It's only going to get worse because Hillary Clinton doesn't have a straightforward bone in her body. And let's add to that that her campaign strategy is to leave different impressions with different audiences. Part of that is planting the questions she wants to answer in the first place. I recall criticizing the president for that practice and I don't intend to let it go when a Democrat does it. Neither will the electorate. They'll notice that she can't give the same answer twice on whether she will end the war and bring our troops out (in her first term, her second term, not at all???). Pandering and caution are imprinted so far down in her character that it's impossible to know what her real positions are on most issues. You wind up believing what you choose to believe.

This kind of weakness cost us the elections of 1988, 2000, and 2004. It's does no good to blame it on the media. We're in primary season now and now is the time to rip the Democrats that will take all our dreams and aspirations and flush them down the toilet. They'll either flush them because they never (sincerely) intended to represent them, or because the electorate can sense that they cannot be trusted to tell the truth and stand up for the little guy. And, that is not strength. It isn't tough.



Display:
Do I remember correctly? Wasn't it John Kennedy who got the Reaganomics trend going by reducing the tax rate on the wealthiest from 90 to 70%. I wonder if that would have happened had FDR or Truman been elected at just that time. Add in Jimmy Carter's penchant for deregulation and the door opened widely for the country stepping away from liberal-socialism and toward "greed" rather than compassion as the supervening economic principle, with all its underlying racist motivation.

by shergald on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:36:24 PM EST
JFK cuts marginal tax rates, yes.  Nothing wrong with that.  Cutting or raising taxes should be a matter of budget and economic policy, not something that neither party is allowed to ever entertain.
by BooMan on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? Would you have Bush cut taxes on the rich still further? Afterall, it would increase tax revenues, if I understand the arguments. But I don't really know how that works.

Suppose folks who make most of the income from the stock market were to get an 8% tax rate instead of the burdenous 15% that they now have to pay? Would that help? So what if the top 10% of families own 85% of the stockmarket, and 90% of all business assets. Cut taxes on the latter too. Deficits or the National Debt? That's what the middle class is all about.

by shergald on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't compare 2007 to 1961.  With marginal rates of 90% on the wealthiest Americans I think there was room to lower taxes.  Right now those numbers are what?  37.5%?  

We need to raise taxes to pay for government operations because we are currently borrowing that money.  In 1961 we were loaning money to people.

by BooMan on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No disagreement here as I was not supporting further lowering of taxes on the wealthy. Income and wealth inequality has never been greater in this country, and it is about time to stop the giveaway.

by shergald on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NONE of those statements are "contradictory". Unless of course you believe in a black and white, two dimensional, yes of no, true or false world.

And I have to be kidding.

I am AGREEING with the execrable Armando?

Whaddam I...KIDDIN' or WHAT!!!???

Nope.

Dead serious.

Are you sure it's really Armando?

I have never known him to be right before...

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:37:45 PM EST
Could you please translate what the eff she actually said in those comments at the debate?  What is her position exactly?  That she was for withdrawing the tropps before she was for leaving them in Iraq?

"Little people are very stuff-intensive."
by CabinGirl on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"All" the troops?

"None" of the troops?

Sounds like somewhere much closer to the first choice than the second, to me.

Now...I do not know about you, but I would guess that a good 80% to 85% of the people in this country depend on automobiles, buses or other petroleum-driven modes of transport  to get to work and generally deal with ife as it has been handed (forced upon?) us.

Now...we are stuck with an economy that will bust if oil prices climb TOO high.

How high?

That's up to the professional disaster gamers to figure out. She's got her estimates, the others have theirs. On both sides of the coming election. One thing that is holding back the mainstreamers from declaring "Out of Iraq, Out of the Middle East Day" as the very first holiday after they get elected and sworn in is the fear that if we do that...totally, completely...a power vacuum will result which will be quickly filled by Islamic states and/or Russia and/or China and/or India.

And the U.S. will face a depression on the level of the '30s if not worse.

Only NOW..."Them domestic injuns got repeatin' rifles, Kemo Sabe!"

Baghdad on the Hudson, Baghdad oin the Potomac, and Baghdad on the Great Lakes is not at ALL out of the question if a crash happens.

THEN what?

UH OH!!!

So...she tapdances.

Can't blame her.

i can't, anyway.

She hopes to be able to tapdance through ALL of the minefields and eventually get to safety...get the U.S., and best of luck to her as far as I am concerned.

Best of luck to whoever wins.

Obama's cresting now.

Do you think that HE will withdraw all American military forces from the region?

PFFFFFTTTT!!!

All those nuke subs sitting on the bottom of the Mediterranean with their missiles pre-targeted on every major Islamic city?

Please.

ANYBODY who tried to get that to happen would encounter their own Dealy Plaza before the month was up. And they ALL know this.

So...they all choose their own tapdance.

Lie now, pay later? (Obama, Edwards)

Prevaricate now and leave your options as free as you can possibly leave them? (Clinton)

Tell the truth now and not get elected? (Kucinich)

Not much to choose from...

I think that they all have the interests of the American people at heart. (Well...maybe not Edwards. I don't think he can see past his own mirror, to tell you the truth.)
'
And they have all come to different conclusions on how best to do this..

POLITICALLY-driven conclusions.

We shall see who concludes the best.

Soon enough.

Later...

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
these feeble answers are tiresome.  It's not just you, Arthur, it's a whole bunch of Clinton apologists.  They just have no rebuttals.  So...I must hate Hillary Clinton.  Or it's 'everyone does it', or it's 'we shouldn't expect any better'.

This is all horseshit.  You don't believe this crap when your children try to use it.  This should be no different.

by BooMan on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
l'm calling bullshit! AG.

at this juncture, l can only assume that your ongoing position on clinton's candidacy, and the strategy it employs, is nothing more than sophistry...bereft any substantive evidence...you know, reality based...to back it up.

if l may suggest; it appears that you're advocating support for a candidate who lies, manipulates, triangulates, and controls her appearances...using tactics right out of karls' ratpublican handbook...because that's how it's done?

somehow, l'm supposed to ignore what my eyes see, and my ears hear and support a ruthless, self serving, RATpub-lite, lying politician, firmly in the camp of the masters of war and commerce, with a chip on her shoulder, who could give a rats ass about anything but her own personal aggrandizement because [wink, wink, nudge, nudge], on 21 jan 2009 she's going to suddenly morph into a reincarnation of fdr, mother teresa and mary magdalene rolled into one?...you gotta be kidding!

enjoy your 'ny state of mind' bubble, and come back with some facts. pretend l'm from missouri and show me something substantial that l can use, because if you think it's going to be another hold your nose and vote d again election, you're sadly mistaken. the good ol boys and gals out here in the hinterlands beyond the beltway and the hudson aren't buyin' it.

it's time for a change, the country's looking for leadership and a new direction and she's not it... a return to the 90's policies of clinton v.1 aren't going to cut it.

until it's yet another hopeless cause, l'll be working my ass off in an effort to defeat her in the primaries, a sad state of affairs, imo, but one that is necessary...and that doesn't include supporting obama, another one of your favorites ims, either.

my 2¢

lTMF'sA



the revolution will not be televised...

by dada on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NOT sophistry, dada.

My understanding of the situation.

Yours may differ.

We shall ALL see.

Eventually.

Personally, I think that it will be Clinton or Obama. I think that the odds are down to about 7 to 4 or 7 to 5 now, in favor of Clinton.  Nobody else...on either side...has a shot. Had Giuliani not Keriked, he might have had a chance. He is a REAL piece of snake work. But Kerik sinks him.

I also think that both Clinton and Obama are full of a certain kind of shit.

Politishit.

because they are pragmatists.

THEY know who really runs things.

Who has the guns.

Who has the media.

So they compromise.

That's the way the game is played. On the evidence.

If you disagree, please name ONE elected president...no, one successful nominee for the office... who did NOT compromise.

Y'all are dreaming.

Sweet dreams...

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 12:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
politics is the art of compromise.  The closest answer is Jimmy Carter, who snuck up on the Establishment and worked them.  But he got punked once in office.
by BooMan on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 01:40:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Able to win and successfully govern.

We shall soon see,

AG


Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 06:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
just wanted to let you know, l haven't forgotten AG...just busy.

If you disagree, please name ONE elected president...no, one successful nominee for the office... who did NOT compromise

stay tuned. l will respond.

lTMF'sA



the revolution will not be televised...

by dada on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought you wanted Hillary because she was a pro who could win, and then suddenly she would shed all that DLC crap and actually help people out.

Well, what if she ain't all that much of a pro?  What if she actually has the fatal Dukakis gene after all?  

by BooMan on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am personally more drawn to Obama and Kucinich.

That's what the primaries are really about.

They are an audition.

If she fails...Obama picks up the slack.

He will learn on the run.

Like JFK.

Only...luckier, I hope.

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Armando (and judging from the talkleft comments, Plutonium Rage too) think we should strive to elect people we already know to be liars, because they all do it, and the degree to which they waffle and lie should go unaddressed.  

Hasn't that already been done by the right wing?  Look at where that got us all.

But what do I know, I've already had enough of listening to the media go on about the Clintons' zippers, panty drawers, and business deals...it got old long before 1999.  It's still old in 2007.

And the damsel in distress crap offended me when she did.  I can already hear the GOP machine:  "Who's she gonna cry to when Chavez, Putin, and Ahmadinejad gang up on her?"


"Little people are very stuff-intensive."

by CabinGirl on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:38:24 PM EST
We're in primary season now and now is the time to rip the Democrats that will take all our dreams and aspirations and flush them down the toilet.

Very good.

Now, name the candidate that ISN'T going to take all our dreams and aspirations and flush them down the toilet.

Either because they don't believe in them in the first place, aren't trusted by the electorate, OR (and you missed this one) aren't competent/intelligent enough to enact the agenda they're espousing in the face of a hostile Congress anyway (let's call it the "Jimmy Carter Effect" for lack of a better word).

I maintain that there isn't a single Democratic presidential candidate that isn't going to flush the hopes and dreams of their supporters away after they're elected in one of the three fashions listed above.  Not Clinton, not Obama, not Edwards, not even Kucinich.

Which is why the focus needs to be on the Senate and the House, as well as on state legislatures and offices.  Getting good people in those offices will really affect policy, and force the Democratic president to go along or get left behind.

by nonynony on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:29:04 PM EST
this doesnt make any sense

all the people you mention CAME from the senate!

we are screwed

by anna in philly (flymetothemoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
handling, hence losing.

the media are liars ... yawn. they repeated RayGun's lies and, even though I was just a 20 year old cook making 4 or 5 bucks an hour,

not 1 of our  'genuis' loser fucking pundits wih their $600 glasses and $100 socks,

I didn't see competent response to RayGun by Carter's team ... or competent response from Dukakis, Gore, Kerry -- I see lots of excuse making from the stephanoupolous major league sell outs and wanna - bee major league sell outs.

if Dems can't use millions of volunteer hours and hundreds of millions of dollars to hire competent media / communications / press people to counter act the

yawn

fucking lies of the fascists,

then they aren't gonna convince wallace dems or soccor moms or values voters ... or whatever b.s. key-to-the-election slice of the electorate they are pandering too in their too complex by 1/2 stratergeries.

rmm.

http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

by rmdSeaBos (sea$$bos$%84 at yah) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:53:58 PM EST
There is no doubt that Hillary Clinton is perceived as tough. Indeed, that is one thing the "castrating bitch" GOP meme has accomplished.

If it has accomplished that, it has done so only among GOP voters who wouldn't vote for a Democrat, any Democrat, including but hardly limited to Sen. Clinton.

My perception, as a Democrat voter, of Sen. Clinton is that she is opportunistic, unprincipled, willing to sacrifice the well-being of any portion of the electorate for her personal ambitions, entirely in the pocket of large corporate interests, and given the chance, I feel relatively certain that she will more or less continue the neocon disaster in Iraq. The nickname she has been tagged with lately, "Senator Status Quo", seems entirely fitting. To find a candidate less likely to stand up for the little guy, you'd have to look to the Republicans.

Hillary Clinton is the leading Dem candidate right now because the media and the political establishment have scripted that narrative for her. Period. The very fact that she is currently the front runner is a visible demonstration of how disconnected from actual voters our political system has become.

---Cthulhu for President: Why vote for the lesser evil?

by eodell (eodell at naqada dot org) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:07:27 PM EST
Hillary Clinton is the leading Dem candidate right now because the media and the political establishment have scripted that narrative for her. Period. The very fact that she is currently the front runner is a visible demonstration of how disconnected from actual voters our political system has become..

The fact that she is currently the front runner is a visible demonstration of how disconnected  our political system has become?

Yup.

And what ELSE does it demonstrate?.

That "the media and the political establishment have scripted that narrative for her. Period."

And that said scripting is VERY powerful.

How did we fall into this Iraq mess?

It was SCRIPTED.

Who's going to be the next President?

Read my lips.

It willl be SCRIPTED.

Bet on it.

Right now during auditions and pre-release audience polling, the script is being tested. If the producers want a change...by God, they will GET one.

Bet on that as well.

AG

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hillary is tough in the sense that she is quick on her feet and will stand up for herself.  I think people respect this and see it as being "tough".  I do.

But another kind of "toughness" is standing up for one's ideas and principles.  As BooMan notes, Democrats have not shown political, intellectual, and moral toughness the last few elections and it has cost them.  Hillary is more of the same and simply reinforces the stereotype that Democrats don't have the courage of their convictions. The Republicans waffle too but at least the public thinks that they are true to their core beliefs.  People don't think Democrats have core beliefs that they will fight for.

Hillary personifies the politics of parsing and appeasement and will be yet another disaster for liberals.  Liberals need to start fighting for real liberal ideas instead of picking the right horse.

If Hillary spent as much energy defending liberal ideas as she does defending her own ego then she would be a very effective candidate.  Sadly, I know she will stab us liberals in the back to make herself look "moderate" and "sensible" the first chance she gets.  

by SFHawkguy on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:29:50 PM EST
you've offered an excellent rundown on why i've stopped reading talk left and armando... there is simply too much he chooses to rationalize, and the huffiness with which he does it, seriously grinds my ass... i have no time for condescension or highly articulate belittling... we stand at the most serious crossroads in our country's history and both democrats and republicans share the responsibility for us being there... up until last november, i chose to suspend my disbelief, but no longer... armando needs to wake up and smell the coffee, as, to a lesser extent, does jeralyn... and, please, don't even get me started on markos or the entire think progress crew...

visit my blog - http://www.takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
by profmarcus (profmarcus@lycos.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:49:31 PM EST


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