Booman Tribune ~ A Progressive Community

Revenge of the Clenis

by BooMan
Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 11:38:18 AM EST

It's the like the Beltway cocktail frankfurter set chased the prom king and queen out of town only to have them return, more powerful than ever. And the Village knows that they can't take back all those horrible things they said. They can never make things right.

Margaret Carlson:

Columnist Mark Shields jokes about the prospect of Bill Clinton hanging around the West Wing all day with nothing to do. The more disturbing thought is his hanging around with something TO DO, an actual ``two for the price of one'' in the Oval Office. The person a pillow away doesn't need any actual designation of power when he's already held the exact same job.
Shouldn't We Talk?
A wife succeeding a husband in the White House is a first- in-a-lifetime possibility in America. Shouldn't we at least talk about it?

David Broder:

The former president's intervention -- volunteered during a campaign appearance on her behalf in South Carolina -- raised the second, and largely unspoken, issue identified by my friend from the Clinton administration: the two-headed campaign and the prospect of a dual presidency.
In his view, which I share, this is a prospect that will test the tolerance of the American people far more severely than the possibility of the first female president -- or, for that matter, the first black president.

Carlson used to go to bed with Senator Fred Thompson...when he was swinging that way. Broder seems to be in bed with Republicans all the time. They are terrified of the Clenis. What if the Clenis has its revenge?

Revenge of the Clenis | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (3.50 / 2)

"the two-headed campaign and the prospect of a dual presidency"

Well, sheeeeeeiiiitt, thats better than the one and a half headed presidency we have now so what the big deal?

by John Brown (ruptured_duck@snotmail.com) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:04:55 PM EST

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

There's still the small matter of the next 12 months and subsequent presidential election. Contrary to the whims of the MSM all-seeing eye, she hasn't won yet.

Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:10:40 PM EST

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

But oooh laaawd...what if he/she does?

by BooMan on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

Well, I'd guess we won't see as congenial a relationship between the press and the Presidential administration as we did with Bush (at least the first few years).

Hell, a Hillary presidency might be the only thing that will bring the 4th estate back to relevance from their role as complicit government propagandists.

Tengo un sueño.

by ejmw (ewitham (at) umich (dot) edu) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 1)

No.

They'll ignore the actual outrages to focus on meaningless slights.

The press won't be any different than the last 8 years of Bush, except that instead of boosting trivial acts of "manliness" by the Codpiece in Chief they'll focus on ripping into trivial acts of "bitchiness" by the Wicked Witch of the White House.

Any actual outrages will be ignored in favor of High School drama. Just like the span between 1992 and 2000.

by nonynony on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

the king 'n queen face a whole mountain of turd. It isn't a safe bet they'll be a 2nd coronation...although T've read Murdock and Scaife are in their corner.

chronicles are surfacing - some of the milder samples

Hillary's Musharraf: Mrs. Clinton's forgotten fling with the Killer of Karachi
By Greg Palast
Hillary comes out against driver's licenses for illegal immigrants after NY Gov. Eliot Spitzer drops his plan to do just that, providing instant fodder for her opponents.
The Making of Hillary Clinton -First in a three-part series. From Nixon Girl to Watergate

I'm taking bets.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 1)

"the prospect of a dual presidency"

Gee, how terrifying would that be? The second President might even start calling himself the Fourth Branch of Government!

by scarshapedstar (gmail: jmcnary) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 12:49:42 PM EST

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

The lack of substance in these pundits' ruminations is amazing. Do they ever talk about actual issues?

---Cthulhu for President: Why vote for the lesser evil?

by eodell (eodell at naqada dot org) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:01:29 PM EST

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 1)

It amused me that Broder takes something that most people would consider positive--the idea of Bill Clinton back in the White House--and sanctimoniously labels it negative because of his own personal preference.

I'm not for Hillary, but the idea that Bill would be advising her is a strike in her favor. I suspect that most people would agree.

And illegal immigration as a potentially fatal issue for democrats? C'mon. If you believe that, I have a Bush surge to sell you.

by rae on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:01:48 PM EST

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 1)

The real issue, which seems to be touched on to me is that this dual presidency team has already had their two terms. Although it is not unconstitutional, it does INHO violate the two term tradition.

I think that the two strongest arguments for Hilary's candidacy are also the two strongest reasons against it. Her experience in the White House and that Democrats like Bill. If Hilary was not running on her experience as first spouse, or if Bill's endorsement was less prominent it would be less of an issue.

The issue is, are we as a nation comfortable with the spouse of a president becoming president. This is a real issue to me, and it is more of an issue because they promise a co-presidency. I do not think that America has had a good track record when we keep the presidency within the family, and that is made worse by the fact that the current president won primarily because of a presidential father.

America should have a very real conversation about what this means to our democracy. Let us talk about that. I think that is it is a dramatic symptom of the decay of our democratic traditions.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama

by Luam (LuamDK at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:05:29 PM EST

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

you're drifting into high wankery with this position.

by BooMan on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 1)

No way, dude. Luam has a point. In most societies throughout history, legitimacy of leadership has been determined by blood relationship to prior leaders. I'm not sure why this is the case--it may have to do with the existence of hierarchies among families in our ancestors (including nonhuman ancestors, who seem to have such hierarchies). In any case, the idea that legitimate leadership can be conferred by elections irrespective of your family background is a new one in human history, and probably more fragile than you might think. We should be vigilant that we do not give it up.

by rae on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:51:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

see my other comment.

It's an insult to Hillary Clinton to suggest that she relies on her name for credibility. Nothing in her biography suggests that.

In the abstract, it's true that a pattern of switching between just two families for our leadership could become a problem. The obvious example is our current idiot king. But it's just wankery to lay that rap on Hillary Clinton.

by BooMan on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 02:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revenge of the Clenis (none / 0)

My complaint is more general and it isn't about fearing that incompetent people will be elected to the presidency. My concern is long standing and is actually more germane because of her competency. The Clintons have been incredibly competent at acquiring power particularly within our party for them and theirs and I think that they will continue to do so for as long as they can.

This isn't evil, this is how power works and how politics works. It was his contribution to preventing this type of thing in our history that makes George Washington such a great president and great man.

This is the one objection to Hilary Clinton that I know for certain I hold independent of any allegiance to another candidate or another objection to her as a candidate. It is something I have felt strongly since I first heard rumors that she might run in 2008 well before anyone I liked had declared.

It is something that I think is a black mark on FDRs otherwise great record of accomplishment and leadership in our country. It is something which made me reluctant to support Jack Carter's run for the Senate last year and would lead me to oppose him if he ran for the Presidency. It is a standard I would apply to myself if my (hypothetical)wife, parents, brother or first cousins were to have held the presidency for more than one term.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama

by Luam (LuamDK at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 03:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You want wankery? (none / 0)

If I really wanted to be a wanker I would claim that the 22nd amendment prohibition of anyone who has acted as president for more than term shall serve as presidents more than once applies to Hilary. Since she and Bill were co-presidents twice and intend to be again they are violating the constitution by running. That is a decently wanktanstic comment.

I don't claim that. As amusing an insult as wanking is, I do not think that my concerns can be so easily dismissed.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama

by Luam (LuamDK at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 03:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dynasties and Democracy? (none / 0)

"A wife succeeding a husband in the White House is a first- in-a-lifetime possibility in America. Shouldn't we at least talk about it?"

Shouldn't we (as in you, the media) have discussed the possibility of the ne'r-do-well son of a former President becoming President? Since you didn't, kindly STFU up this time around.

Seriously, though, the dynasty thing should be a huge strike against Hilary, just as it should have been for Georgie Junior. But America isn't much of a democracy anymore, as the Kennedys, Cuomos, Udalls, Rockefellers, Bushes, and assorted lesser nobility demonstrate.

by PeakVT on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:47:37 PM EST

Re: Dynasties and Democracy? (none / 1)

Yeah, the Adams, Harrisons, Roosevelts, Bushes, and Clintons...

It's not really a new phenomenon.

Of all the reasons to oppose Hillary, the fact that she was first lady seems about the stupidest one imaginable.

If we were considering her BECAUSE she was first lady like say, Laura Bush or Lady Bird Johnson, then that would be ridiculous. But Hillary Clinton would be a prime candidate for the highest office even if she had never met Bill Clinton.

She was marked for success from the beginning, with her brains and ambition and capability, she was bound to rise to the top one way or the other.

We should keep the focus on what her crew wants, how they intend to govern, and whether that is what we want.

by BooMan on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 01:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dynasties and Democracy? (none / 0)

Hilary would be a prime candidate for higher office if she had never met Bill, and to my mind a significantly better one. The problem looking forward is not that she would only achieve the office because of her relationship to Bill, but that it would be a consolidation of power within a family. That is why George Washington resigned after two terms and established a tradition that lasted until WWII.

If it hadn't been for FDR and the 22nd amendment I do not think that we would even consider her for that office. By enacting a law we have narrowed the scope of the tradition.

I think that Hilary is trying to have it both ways, she claims she is qualified because she served as first spouse and she promises that if she is president again her husband will once again have access to the levers of power, but at the same time it is not acceptable to question the damage that it might do to our democratic traditions or that another candidacy by a close relative of a president is a symptom of a deeper illness in those traditions.

You can disagree, but I have trouble understanding why you think it is unreasonable of me to fear that, and to discuss my fear. Please tell me that you think our democracy is strong enough to withstand the type of erosion I fear and that such erosion and consolidation will not occur in America or within the Democratic party.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama

by Luam (LuamDK at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 03:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dynasties and Democracy? (none / 0)

I disagree that Hillary Clinton would be a prime candidate for high office even if she had never met Bill Clinton. There is no evidence for that statement. She has only held one elective or administrative position--U.S. Senator. Given her lack of previous experience, it is hard to believe that she would have been elected to that position had she not been Bill Clinton's wife. I don't think she's particularly talented either. She is an uninspiring, even insipid speaker. She failed the DC bar exam, for God's sake. Sorry, but we are considering Hillary for president because she was the first lady.

by rae on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 at 05:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Revenge of the Clenis | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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