Booman Tribune

Church and State

by BooMan
Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 02:58:45 PM EST

I'm not sure why Atrios has been consumed with the topic of religion in politics for the last week. But I think he has finally made a breakthrough. Here he hits a grand slam:

...I do agree that questioning the sincerity of peoples' faith does anger them. On the other hand, appealing to the sincerity of their beliefs is a way of privileging them, to put them in the realm of privileged discourse, as well as removing the person's responsibility. I don't really care if the desire to discriminate against gay people, or turn the uterus into state property, is motivated by sincere religious conviction. I don't think religious conviction, sincere or otherwise, makes your beliefs somehow special. If you think your misogyny or homophobia is sanctioned by God, it doesn't make you not a misogynist or homophobe.

I've had this conversation with anti-choice progressives, who think it's important for me to understand that their anti-choice views come from a sincere religious belief. The thing is, I just don't care. The fact that your political beliefs are motivated by your religion doesn't make them special to me.

I agree. In fact, any political belief that is primarily motivated by your religion is inherently suspect. This is never more true than when your particular political belief (that is based on your religion) is highly sectarian in nature. For example, opposition to contraception in rarely enshrined in protestant dogma. If your opposition to the use of contraception is based on adherence to the teaching of the Vatican, then you are attempting to proscribe a behavior based on a very narrow basis. You can be as sincere as a heart attack, but you are still trying to impose religious beliefs that are largely particular to your sect on to a population that does not share that belief. In fact, you are attempting to impose laws on people that even most of your co-religionists don't agree with.

This goes against the whole tenor of America's traditional treatment of sectarian differences. Here is how Thomas Jefferson put it in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut on January 1st, 1802:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

More Jefferson below the fold:

From the Notes on the State of Virginia (1782):

The first settlers in this country were emigrants from England, of the English church, just at a point of time when it was flushed with complete victory over the religious of all other persuasions. Possessed, as they became, of the powers of making, administering, and executing the laws, they shewed equal intolerance in this country with their Presbyterian brethren, who had emigrated to the northern government.

The poor Quakers were flying from persecution in England. They cast their eyes on these new countries as asylums of civil and religious freedom; but they found them free only for the reigning sect. Several acts of the Virginia assembly of 1659, 1662, and 1693, had made it penal in parents to refuse to have their children baptized; had prohibited the unlawful assembling of Quakers; had made it penal for any master of a vessel to bring a Quaker into the state; had ordered those already here, and such as should come thereafter, to be imprisoned till they should abjure the country; provided a milder punishment for their first and second return, but death for their third; had inhibited all persons from suffering their meetings in or near their houses, entertaining them individually, or disposing of books which supported their tenets. If no capital execution took place here, as did in New-England, it was not owing to the moderation of the church, or spirit of the legislature, as may be inferred from the law itself; but to historical circumstances which have not been handed down to us.

The Anglicans retained full possession of the country about a century. Other opinions began then to creep in, and the great care of the government to support their own church, having begotten an equal degree of indolence in its clergy, two-thirds of the people had become dissenters at the commencement of the present revolution. The laws indeed were still oppressive on them, but the spirit of the one party had subsided into moderation, and of the other had risen to a degree of determination which commanded respect.

The present state of our laws on the subject of religion is this. The convention of May 1776, in their declaration of rights, declared it to be a truth, and a natural right, that the exercise of religion should be free; but when they proceeded to form on that declaration the ordinance of government, instead of taking up every principle declared in the bill of rights, and guarding it by legislative sanction, they passed over that which asserted our religious rights, leaving them as they found them.

The same convention, however, when they met as a member of the general assembly in October 1776, repealed all acts of parliament which had rendered criminal the maintaining any opinions in matters of religion, the forbearing to repair to church, and the exercising any mode of worship; and suspended the laws giving salaries to the clergy, which suspension was made perpetual in October 1779. Statutory oppressions in religion being thus wiped away, we remain at present under those only imposed by the common law, or by our own acts of assembly. At the common law, heresy was a capital offence, punishable by burning. Its definition was left to the ecclesiastical judges, before whom the conviction was, till the statute of the 1 El. c. 1. circumscribed it, by declaring, that nothing should be deemed heresy, but what had been so determined by authority of the canonical scriptures, or by one of the four first general councils, or by some other council having for the grounds of their declaration the express and plain words of the scriptures.

Heresy, thus circumscribed, being an offence at the common law, our act of assembly of October 1777, c. 17. gives cognizance of it to the general court, by declaring, that the jurisdiction of that court shall be general in all matters at the common law. The execution is by the writ De haeretico comburendo. By our own act of assembly of 1705, c. 30, if a person brought up in the Christian religion denies the being of a God, or the Trinity, or asserts there are more Gods than one, or denies the Christian religion to be true, or the scriptures to be of divine authority, he is punishable on the first offence by incapacity to hold any office or employment ecclesiastical, civil, or military; on the second by disability to sue, to take any gift or legacy, to be guardian, executor, or administrator, and by three years imprisonment, without bail. A father's right to the custody of his own children being founded in law on his right of guardianship, this being taken away, they may of course be severed from him, and put, by the authority of a court, into more orthodox hands.

This is a summary view of that religious slavery, under which a people have been willing to remain, who have lavished their lives and fortunes for the establishment of their civil freedom. 33 The error seems not sufficiently eradicated, that the operations of the mind, as well as the acts of the body, are subject to the coercion of the laws. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God.

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man. It may fix him obstinately in his errors, but will not cure them. Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation. They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only.

Had not the Roman government permitted free enquiry, Christianity could never have been introduced. Had not free enquiry been indulged, at the aera of the reformation, the corruptions of Christianity could not have been purged away. If it be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged. Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potatoe as an article of food. Government is just as infallible too when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere: the government had declared it to be as flat as a trencher, and Galileo was obliged to abjure his error. This error however at length prevailed, the earth became a globe, and Descartes declared it was whirled round its axis by a vorteo. The government in which he lived was wise enough to see that this was no question of civil jurisdiction, or we should all have been involved by authority in vortices.

In fact, the vortices have been exploded, and the Newtonian principle of gravitation is now more firmly established, on the basis of reason, than it would be were the government to step in, and to make it an article of necessary faith. Reason and experiment have been indulged, and error has fled before them. It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desireable? No more than of face and stature.

Introduce the bed of Procrustes then, and as there is danger that the large men may beat the small, make us all of a size, by lopping the former and stretching the latter. Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.

To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand. That if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these, free enquiry must be indulged; and how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse it ourselves.

But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments? Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception. They flourish infinitely. Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order: or if a sect arises, whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play, and reasons and laughs it out of doors, without suffering the state to be troubled with it. They do not hang more malefactors than we do.

They are not more disturbed with religious dissensions. On the contrary, their harmony is unparalleled, and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. They have made the happy discovery, that the way to silence religious disputes, is to take no notice of them. Let us too give this experiment fair play, and get rid, while we may, of those tyrannical laws.

It is true, we are as yet secured against them by the spirit of the times. I doubt whether the people of this country would suffer an execution for heresy, or a three years imprisonment for not comprehending the mysteries of the Trinity. But is the spirit of the people an infallible, a permanent reliance? Is it government? Is this the kind of protection we receive in return for the rights we give up? Besides, the spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated, that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion.



Display:
I like a religious tradition from my father's side that our politicians could take a clue from (VA/MD methodists): my grandmother refused to take communion during services because she felt is was just showing off your faith. I didn't understand that growing up, but i certainly do now.

She felt religion is a personal relationship between you and your deity, what business it of others? To display your faith publicly (even in church!) is self-center, self-promoting and frankly showy and gauche. Politicians are by their nature self-promoting, but they can be shamed if 'the people' change their mind about the importance of a Politician's religion. Fine if you want a religious candidate, but not fine if he is out whoring his faith, turning religion into stage make-up.

Why is important to speak of faith in politics? Because  the role it is playing now makes our system mutually exclusive to implementing progressive policy. Period. So it is a required topic.

Declaring the bottom is the only way back up..

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 03:55:13 PM EST
Excellent!

by mainsailset on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 03:28:46 PM EST
The sincerity of religious beliefs is irrelevant. Church and State should be separate, period.

If you want things to get better, be prepared to deal with change.
by Kahli on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 03:33:38 PM EST
I can't read that piece from Jefferson enough.  Few minds like that have ever come along.  Ironically, the only American thinker I can compare it to is the work of MLK Jr.  How seldom do people combine that kind of keen insight with brilliance with the pen or mouth?  
by BooMan on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 03:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to paraphrase the New Testament quite loosely. But when Jesus was asked how to tell sincere people of faith from people who simply wear their faith on their  sleeves, he said: "By their fruits you should know them." Together with the other quote ("Give to Caesar what is Caesars...") it serves us well in judging one another.

I don't care if someone's policy is derived from a religious belief, secular humanism, or pragmatism: Look at the results. If old people hit a "donut" and have to go without their blood pressure pills, the policy stinks. If your religious prophesy prompts you into a war that kills 600,000 Iraqis, it's evil.  

Policies that make women healthy and self confident (and ultimately, if they choose, better mothers) have good long term results for them and for our society. Policies that force us to deal with cultural differences through diplomacy and work toward environmental stewardship have good results for the world. It doesn't matter politically where they come from.

People who believe they are special because their beliefs are derived from a volume of assembled philosophy and history in the 4th Century shouldn't have a louder voice or more votes than people who simply care.


Michaela

by michaelmt (MrMichael_t@yahoo.com) on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 03:44:51 PM EST
I think this is much ado about nothing. I know I'm in the minority on this on the blogosphere, but Atrios is the last direction I'd look for an original idea.

Obviously an atheist/agnostic is not going to attach special weight to an argument deemed religiously sincere, and only an idiot would demand such special consideration.

On the other hand, it is a fact of life that some people hold some beliefs with special fervor for religious reasons, and a realistic politics must understand that, all the while it aims to give no special weight to such ideas.

by Arminius on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 03:53:58 PM EST
How do you argue with someone's political agenda if they claim their political agenda is inspired by their religious beliefs and then claim that the sincerity of their religious beliefs puts them beyond criticism?  

First we are asked to respect their sincerity, as if that were beyond doubt in many cases, and then if we don't respect their sincerity, we are accused of bigotry.  

More than this...flip it around.

I can be very sincere in thinking that a society that can afford it should not allow someone to go without access to health care.  I can base that on my understanding of human rights and the writings of several ethical philosophers.  Am I now protected from someone questioning my sincerity?  Am I allowed to call someone that questions my sincerity a bigot?

Obviously not.  

And that is why this argument is being made.  Can Amanda suggest that the Vatican's position on contraception is insincere without being accused of bigotry?   I guess not.  And that's a problem.

It may be, as you suggest, a political reality that must be accepted.  But don't hold your breath waiting for people to accept it.

by BooMan on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 04:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't really get this argument. You say:

How do you argue with someone's political agenda if they claim their political agenda is inspired by their religious beliefs and then claim that the sincerity of their religious beliefs puts them beyond criticism?

That is a straw man. I don't recall seeing anybody arguing that "the sincerity of their religious beliefs puts them beyond criticism."

Then you say:

First we are asked to respect their sincerity, as if that were beyond doubt in many cases, and then if we don't respect their sincerity, we are accused of bigotry.  

More than this...flip it around.

I can be very sincere in thinking that a society that can afford it should not allow someone to go without access to health care.  I can base that on my understanding of human rights and the writings of several ethical philosophers.  Am I now protected from someone questioning my sincerity?  Am I allowed to call someone that questions my sincerity a bigot?

Obviously not.  

Sorry, I don't get it. I don't recall ever seeing the claim that religious sincerity makes an argument untouchable, nor that a questioning of the "sincerity" equals bigotry.

And that is why this argument is being made.  Can Amanda suggest that the Vatican's position on contraception is insincere without being accused of bigotry?   I guess not.  And that's a problem.

Oh come on. That is disingenuous. Nobody made that argument. I don't recall the issue of sincerity coming up in that debate one way or the other. Amanda Marcotte's criticisms of Catholic beliefs certainly were not focused on whether or not the beliefs are "sincere." And none of the criticisms of Marcotte focused on the bigotry of attacking sincere beliefs.

I don't want to rehash that particular debate, but I don't think it had anything to do with the concept of sincerity.

Incidentally, Jefferson was an atheist/agnostic and his thoughts, while tremendously wise, are not the last word on church-state issues. Jefferson often saw things in black-and-white, like many of the leftie bloggers, without perceiving nuances that are crucial to many other people. My ex-wife was like that, fabulously intelligent and quick, but quite shallow on some issues (and unable to perceive the shallowness).

One cannot neatly or easily remove religious concerns from public life, because they are too deeply engrained in our psyches, our language, and our social institutions. Take marriage, for example. Although I am a believing Christian, I'm also a secularist and think church and state should be separated MUCH FURTHER than they are today in American culture.  I hate it when politicians mention God.  I REALLY hate it when I see an American flag in church.  Back to marriage. I think that is an inherently religious idea. Therefore, I think the government should have nothing to do with "marriage" whatsoever. The government should authorize certain kinds of established civil unions, for any adult couples. But "marriage" should be an entirely religious matter, that people should be free to seek, or not to seek, as they wish, from religious authorities.

That idea of mine is beautiful, logical, elegant, and as crisp as anything Jefferson devised, and it would solve the gay marriage debate in one whack. The idea is beautiful because it is completely true to the secular side and to the religious side.

However, it has NO chance of success, not even in 500 years. Why? Because of the deep way that religious concepts are imbedded in every aspects of our beings.

I could give another 10 examples like this.

Accordingly, I think the battle you and Atrios think you are fighting here is superficial and insignificant. Cheap thrills. Not serious thinking.

by Arminius on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 09:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is difficult to DEFINE religion.

There is a religion or "common sense" a "common wisdom" in a society that "everybody knows"... it's not different from religion but isn't called the same.

- pyrrho

by pyrrho on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 04:33:31 PM EST
I suppose that I, like God, am tired of bigots and intolerants using the Deity as a scapegoat for their sins and shortcomings.

And while we're on the topic, this is just a variation of confession and expiation rituals to relieve people from the joint burden of sin and responsibility for their acions, despite the promise supposedly made in confession that they (the miscreants) will go and sin no more.

Put me in the column of those who have never allowed so-called religious scruples of others to sanction their ignominious behavior.

They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice

by Limelite on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 07:41:13 PM EST
Pyrrho pins it above.

"It is difficult to define religion."

You bet your ass it is.

But...let us try.

This will do. From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictgionary:

Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious (a nun in her 20th year of religion) b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

I am most interested in #4, myself.

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

And here lies the problem.

You all are saying that it is difficult to argue with one whose religion gives some sort of divine authority to his views.

I quite agree.

I just left My Left Wing because of just this problem.

Only the "religion" in that instance was modern medicine as promoted by Dr. Big Brother and the Pharmcological Holding Company.

No less spooky a set of beliefs than those of the most rigid backcountry Christian or Taliban member.

With even LESS long-term proof of efficacy.

Here's another one.

The so-called two-party system here in America.

I mean...really, folks.

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

After SO much evidence to the contrary?

Hell...I saw Hillary kissing some guy dressed up in a elephant suit under the Christmas tree just a few months ago.

At least I THINK it was an elephant suit.

Something long, snaky and trunk-like was crawling around down there...

C'MON folks!!!

Think about it.

Or how about...

The religion of The American Way of Life as preached daily 24/7 on several THOUSAND TV, radio and print media outlets.

Most of us are as unconscious of our OWN "religious" beliefs as are 5 year old children brought up to fear de big, bad Debbil and love Lord Jesus, that good lookin' Anglo bearded fella with the light brown hair and the GREAT beard trim.

Must've had one hell of a barber back there in Gee-rusalem!!!

Challenge them?

Go ahead.

See what happens.

May as well walk into a Holy Roller church or a Taliban mosque and try to preach rationalism.

You TOO can become strange fruit.

Bet on it.

May as well ask a fish about water.

"Water?" says the fish, gurgling around. "Ain't no water 'round HERE!!!"

I can hear the protestations of innocence now.

"Not ME!!!"

I'm a RATIONALIST!!!

Yeah?

What's in YOUR medicine cabinet?

What's in your wallet?

In what do YOU have "faith"?

Obama?

UH oh!!!

He's playing the "Jesus" card to the HILT.

Only...HE'S THE JESUS FIGURE!!!

A little revisionist...brownish and all...

But still...

Just sayin'...

"Kin I git an AMEN, bretheren an' sistren!!!"

"Kin I git an Amen!!!"

'Cuz we are ALL in one church or another.

Bet on it.

Choose yours wisely.

The soul you save may be your own.

The ass you save may be yours as well.

And mine too, while we're at it.

Think on this.

PRAY on it.

(The idea...not the ass.)

And then...if you're lucky...

WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!

(The real root idea of ALL real religions. Awakening. Bet on it. All the rest is just devolved bullshit.)

Have fun...

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 at 07:57:07 PM EST
hi booman.

I posted a response to this from the religious left muslim perspective

http://eteraz.org/story/2007/2/21/121137/300

A. Eteraz http://eteraz.wordpress.com/

by eteraz (///mailto:eteraz@gmail.com) on Wed Feb 21st, 2007 at 03:13:42 PM EST


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