Booman Tribune ~ A Progressive Community

I'm Cool With Caroline

by BooMan
Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 03:58:35 PM EST

I don't really disagree with anything that Markos or Duncan have to say about Caroline Kennedy's campaign for Hillary's seat. But I still don't come to the same conclusion. First of all, I do have to quibble a little bit with the idea that the only reason people support Caroline is because of her name. I like Caroline because she has been an active and effective advocate for liberal causes her entire adult life. But I grant there are many other people not named Kennedy that have done the same and are not jumping to the head of the line for a senate seat.

The main reason I support Caroline's bid is because I expect her be a much better vote than Andrew Cuomo or Kirsten Gillibrand or any of the other names I've seen mentioned. But I also think the Senate is big enough to have room for a Kennedy. Yes, they're a dynasty, but they're a dynasty that has given everything for their country. With Teddy nearing the end of his career, I don't have a problem with Caroline taking his place.

Having said that, I still pretty much agree with everything Markos and Duncan have to say about this affair.

I'm Cool With Caroline | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (4.00 / 2)

Has anyone considered that her name is a liability? Meaning, if she were NOT named Kennedy, wouldn't most progressives be supporting her at once? There has rarely been a more capable woman on our side.

I think it's unfair to say she's only a candidate due to her name.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 05:15:28 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (4.00 / 2)

I agree. Caroline's biggest drawback is that she isn't a great campaigner and she'll have to be to hold the seat. She can work on that over the next two years. That said, she has huge built-in advantages in terms of name recognition and fundraising capabilities. She has the intellect and, for New Yorkers, why wouldn't an Empire State resident want someone who Obama owes the presidency to representing their state? I don't care for aristocracies either, but if the aristocrat in question plans to carry on the progressive tradition of Uncle Teddy then I can live with it.

It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners -- Albert Camus

by wadeinca on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:00:04 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

Yeah, I can live with it, too.

One thing I like about the pick is that she isn't a politician. She's always been on the other side of political transactions. It's similar, in a way, to the reason I was attracted to Obama's history as a community organizer. If you've lived on the other side of the tracks, you have a better perspective. However, it cuts both ways. Caroline was raised in about the most elite way possible, and certainly is not from the wrong side of the tracks.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't really care either way about Caroline (none / 0)

but I'm operating under the assumption that there is no way that a Republican could win at the end of the unexpired term and the worst that could happen is that she would lose the primary.

Is that true? Or could a Republican take the seat? Because that should be a consideration.

We had our own "royal" appointment when Mel Carnahan died. Jean was (is) smart, savvy, on the right side of issues, a hard worker, involved in her own causes, fully qualified to do a hard job, but she was not the politician in the family. And she lost to Talent by a smidge when she actually had to run. But we're a state with very close elections as the norm. So ... how likely is it that a Republican could win a senate race in NY at this time? From what I've seen of Caroline she's not a natural campaigner.

by maryb2004 on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:30:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't really care either way about Caroline (none / 1)

New York tolerates moderate Republicans fairly well, even in the City. A Republican could win a state-wide race for either governor or senator. However, Guiliani could not beat Carolyn Kennedy, and the GOP's bench is weak. They'd have to find another celebrity to go up against her, I think.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (4.00 / 2)

I haven't really been keeping up with this saga (or many sagas recently, truth be told) but when Markos says this:

It's clear that a significant contingent on this site believes that Caroline Kennedy should be senator because her last name is "Kennedy", and because they "like her".

It seems to me to be just as blind to believe the opposite (as he seems to), namely that she should not be senator simply because her last name is "Kennedy".

Tengo un sueño.

by ejmw (ewitham (at) umich (dot) edu) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 08:05:06 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

I don't disagree with Chris either, and he makes some great historically-based points. But, I still think people are overstating the case against Caroline. She's certainly has more to offer than just her good name.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 05:09:54 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

A LOT more. She's one of the most articulate and effective members of the family. She's one of us.

I can't help but think a lot of the bloggers are reacting based on writings of CIA assets trying yet again to squelch the Kennedys from the American political scene.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

Well, you can stop thinking that because it isn't true.

The nearly unanimous opposition to a likely reliable liberal is emanating from the anti-elitist inclinations that a core part of the culture of the blogosphere. All elites are mistrusted, and all power structures are challenged. I admit, even I am surprised by the power and consistency of this value-system in this case. But that is the explanation, not some clever CIA plot.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:18:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

And you are just naive enough to believe that. ;-)

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 07:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

believe me, the CIA doesn't give a shit who represents New York so long as it isn't Hugo Chavez.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 07:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

You're kidding yourself if you believe that.

If the CIA was interested in state government in Minnesota, you can bet NY is a much higher priority, being the financial center of our world.

But don't believe me. Listen to Jesse Ventura:

http://52.thelastoutpost.com/video-4/police-state/cia-embedded-in-every-state-government.html

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 08:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

ok, hugo chavez or jesse ventura.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 09:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

I just wish there were elections to replace Senators, not appoint anyone to fill out the term.

As for the CIA not caring about elections, Boo, you are delusional. If they are willing to overthrow countries around the world, and yes, Hugo Chavez would know about that, then why would they not care about politics in America? Because they're good citizens at the bottom of their dark little hearts?

But this is a delusion shared by most people. And encouraged by the media.

Read this:

http://southofheaven.typepad.com/south_of_heaven/2008/12/past-is-prologue.html

by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 11:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

listen to what Ventura said. As best as he can figure it, the CIA wanted information to improve their analysis. He joked that maybe they wanted to understand how he won so such victories could be avoided in the future, but it's more likely that they want to understand insurgency campaigns for foreign applications.

The CIA isn't some mastermind organization. Their operations division isn't going to meddle in domestic elections. Although, it's possible that they can bring down a pol that threatens important rackets (see Eliot Spitzer for one such possibility).

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 11:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

My God, Booman, they already HAVE meddled in domestic elections. Sheesh - they brought down Ross Perot, they were responsible for much of what happened in 1972 (Miles Copeland is convinced E. Howard Hunt did something to Muskie to make him cry and lose the nomination), they have contributed money to candidates, and, as you well know, they have eliminated the competition permanently when their interests were at stake.

Maybe you are saying all this to preserve your friendships in the blogosphere. I find your naivete in this matter stunning.

The CIA bragged openly in 1992 about how they had people in place in EVERY major media outlet in the country, and said this had allowed them to turn some intelligence failure stories into intelligence success stories, etc.

They controlled the Paris Review for years. I have a good article re that on my desk as I type.

They owned a high level exec at Paramount for years. There's a good long piece on that on the Internet.

And the guy who wrote the CIA memo instructing their media assets to rebut allegations that the CIA was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy showed up not too long ago in meeting of studio bigwigs set to vett a doco re the JFK assassination. (When they CIA guy gave it a green light, the producers wondered if maybe they had it wrong. They were blaming the FBI. Doh, they did have it wrong, so no wonder it got approved.)

The CIA would not be worth its salt if it were not trying hard to control the discussions on the blogospheres - especially leading lefty blogs as well as right-wing blogs. It's what they do in all other media. If you think they have higher priorities, you are so wrong. Their FIRST priority is to keep most of us in the dark as to what they are doing. How can they do that? By controlling the media. ALL of it, blogs included.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 01:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

The CIA you have studied is not the CIA of today.

For a long time the CIA seemed to think they should run our foreign policy rather then leaving it to the president. Then they became much more obedient servants of the president. Finally, under Bush, they rebelled against the administration they served.

Without any question, the CIA worked to expose the Bush administration in the lead-up to the 2004 elections, and they failed. That's important. They are not united and they are not omnipotent.

In order for the CIA to have a concerted effort to lead the blogosphere, they'd have to have a clearly defined purpose. Their only obvious purpose over the last seven years has been to protect their image at the expense of the president and his administration.

They have not been active in defending the administration at all, in my experience.

And, yes, there are rogues on both sides, including people I have dealt with intimately, who push agendas. But they're retired and acting on their own in their own interests, and not at the direction of the DCI or anyone else high up.

There are spies gathering intelligence, but there is no strategy.

by BooMan on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 02:05:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

That's such baloney. That's like saying the America today is not the America of the 60s. Yes it is. That's part of the problem. We're still trying on imperialism, and it's still not fitting.

Re those acting on their own - doh, that is how it ALWAYS has been, and ALWAYS will be, because there's no oversight when you have covert ops, BY DEFINITION. That's the problem.

I have no beef with the DCI. They aren't the ones running the show, in case you haven't figured it out.

The intelligence world is run on an overt level at one stratum, but by independent, well-connected operatives on another. The various strata together make up a machine that sometimes is more powerful than the sum of its parts.

But don't kid yourself they are not running domestic media operations. Seriously, Booman. That history has a long arc, and it goes back to before this country existed. There's nothing more powerful than the press, and those who want power have always and will always seek to control it - not just "even in" but ESPECIALLY in the blogosphere.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Thu Dec 18th, 2008 at 12:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

Harry Reid is cool with Caroline, too.

by BooMan on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 05:11:22 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

where's the pick of RFK in the red chrysler convertible. I think Caroline Kennedy is a great pick for NY Senator.

by americanforliberty on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 06:19:27 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (4.00 / 2)

Right here.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 08:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (4.00 / 2)

Man, I just can't get enough of that picture!! It is one of my all time favorites. It speaks such volumes.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity"

by MikeInOhio on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 09:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

I'm kind of split on this. On the one hand, Caroline is fairly progressive. On the other, I'm utterly disgusted with the way her family name is the primary reason she's being considered.

Just a couple years ago Democratic party was shoving Bob Casey, Jr. down our throats and doing their best to crush his primary opponents...because he had name recognition and "electability". Sure, Casey is a DINO and Kennedy is a real Democrat. But does that make her appointment OK? Should we only reject elitism / nepotism when it doesn't suit our political ideology?

by daveydinpa on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 08:08:06 PM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

But it's NOT her family name. That's what the press grabs onto. But she's been politically active her entire life - just not in the publicly elected roles. But she's got all kinds of relevant experience. Don't say she's being nominated for name recognition. No one is suggesting Brad Pitt or Tom Hanks, you know.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 08:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 1)

Should we only reject elitism / nepotism when it doesn't suit our political ideology?

I think you can separate the candidate from the means through which they became so. I think that's essentially what BooMan is doing - saying that the reasons she is being considered are silly, but that overall her positions and beliefs are fairly in line with his so he supports her.

I'm sure you may have noticed that we don't have a perfect system...and it will clearly never be so. I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that and even using it to our advantage to get progressive voices heard, as long as there is also the push to make the system better too.

Otherwise the progressive movement falls into the trap of complaining about the rigged game, but playing into it anyway. Which I think is stupid.

Tengo un sueño.

by ejmw (ewitham (at) umich (dot) edu) on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 08:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

Davey, it wasn't the Democratic Party that crowned Bobby Casey, it was Chuck Schumer as head of the DSCC. Casey didn't even want to run for the Senate; he was just biding his time waiting to run for governor again. But when Schumer promised all the money he could find a way to spend and enlisted Casey's nemesis Rendell to help clear the field (of two solid liberals who were eager for the opportunity and had statewide name recognition, unlike Chuck Pennochio), Casey eventually came around.

And then Schumer congratulated himself for his acumen for winning the seat! But Santorum was so despised by then that I could have won.

(As far as Kennedy, she's smart and liberal and has done a lot of good work, so I'm OK with her; I'm also OK with someone else who's smart and liberal and has more direct political experience. It's up to Governor Paterson, who ought to know what he's doing; he might even pick himself.)

by Joyful Alternative on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 10:30:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

But it wasn't just Schumer & Rendell that shoved Casey on us, it was the whole damn party. EVERY Senate Dem was endorsing Casey (if not fundraising on his behalf) before he won the primary. I volunteered for Pennacchio's campaign, so I'm painfully aware of this.

Again I'm OK with Kennedy, too. I just don't like appointments, no matter who is being considered. I'd prefer a special election. John Nichol's shares my reservations .

by daveydinpa on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 10:43:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jane Hamsher (none / 1)

Has a puma snit and all the A-listers are throwing their shoes at Caroline Kennedy.

It's all right... if it's all white.

"Politics as personal soap opera"

But let's pretend our own shit don't stink.

by ILuvChez17 on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 at 11:59:11 PM EST

Re: Jane Hamsher (none / 0)

Now that's what I call documenting the atrocities.

by BooMan on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 12:26:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Meet The New Village (none / 1)

Same as the old village.

Venal, thin skinned and not all that bright.

These people are not your friends.

They're jaw dropping tone deaf to the interests of Democratic voters. Forget about the broader electorate.

They just want another no hope candidate they can have others throw money at.

Douchebags.

by ILuvChez17 on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 11:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jane Hamsher (none / 0)

heh, that thread brings up lots of old memories and reminders of great comment threads, too.

Latino Político | "We are condemned to kill time, thus we die bit by bit." - Octavio Paz

by Man Eegee (man.eegee at gmail dot com) on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 01:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

I don't think her record is particularly remarkable. All she has done is fundraise using family connections, and I agree with Jane Hamsher that she has been nowhere during some of our most difficult times, but I admit that those who oppose her haven't offered any alternatives.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog

by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 10:11:09 AM EST

Re: I'm Cool With Caroline (none / 0)

From a NY voter: Caroline would win in a walk. She has the magical name for progressives, after all RFK was Senator from NY when he was killed. And, who can forget that picture of her with her younger brother at the Kennedy funeral in 1963? She's got an absolute lock on senior citizen vote and we need every progressive in office that we can get.

Suppose you scrub your ethical skin until it shines, but inside there is no music, then what? Kabir

by Dongi 2 on Wed Dec 17th, 2008 at 11:55:10 AM EST

I'm Cool With Caroline | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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