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Deep Thought

by BooMan
Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 12:36:28 PM EST

This is just a guess, but I'd put money down that George W. Bush will preemptively pardon Harriet Miers and Alberto Gonzales on Christmas Eve. Bush's father pardoned the Iran-Contra crew on Christmas Eve 1992, and it seems like an appropriate precedent for the son. The bigger question is whether he will preemptively pardon Karl Rove. Rove is certainly behaving like a man without a care in the world, which is strange considering that a Washington grand jury is issuing subpoenas as we speak. And, no, there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it. A president's pardon power is absolute.

Deep Thought | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

But once Bush is out of office, we can still subpoena Rove. With a pardon, he can't take the 5th, so he either has to rat out everyone else or lie which would leave him open to charges of perjury. More likely he would suddenly become the absent-minded professor and not recall a damned thing, but you might as well haul him up to see what happens.

I was wondering what would happen if Obama ratifies the treated on the ICC. Could some of the neo-cons who approved the use of torture then be called before the court in the Hague? A presidential pardon wouldn't do squat for those folks.

by ericy on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 12:42:36 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Treaties require a 2/3rds vote of the Senate for ratification. Good luck with that.

by Brad on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 01:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Look at the strategy used by chilean prosecutors against Pinochet and his subordinates.

They got an "immunity" as a condition of letting go of power, much like a presidential pardon, but they had to come clean about what they did.

One example: many people were 'disappeared' by Pinochet's gang. So, after Pinochet was out of power, he was charged with kidnapping. Victim's still missing, so there's still a crime in progress.

And if they say "well, we killed him way back then", then too bad, it's not on the list of charges immunized.

The CIA has "disappeared" a bunch of people over the past eight years. Kidnapping charges. STATE murder charges, if possible (which a Pres. can't pardon). Hell, pass a $10B tax on "torturing to death" and have the IRS go after 'em.
Jail time for tax fraud, you betcha.

(taxes not covered by 'ex-post facto', and worldwide operations/income can be subject to tax)

by Snarki child of Loki (whatever@snark.r.us) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 02:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

A presidential pardon, won't cover acts after the initial pardon. So if he refuses to speak, Rove can be held in contempt and or perjury charges, if he lies before Congress.

by americanforliberty on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 02:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Even if Obama wants ratification of the ICC--which I have no reason to think he does--I am absolutely positive that there would be some exclusion, implied or otherwise, of the current crop of criminals, and that exclusion and/or assurance would be approved of by Obama. That's just the way it works.

by sleepy (imcotton1991@yahoo.com) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 05:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

who cares?
if there's nothing that can be done writing about it only serves to get people upset about things that are out of their hands.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 02:37:55 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Yet another reason we need a Constitutional Convention. The old wreck just no longer serves its purpose.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 03:01:15 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

And, no, there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it. A president's pardon power is absolute.

A US presidential pardon has no standing in a war crimes tribunal.

by AliceDem on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 03:03:27 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

A president's pardon power is absolute.

Well, except in matters of impeachment.

I'm still wondering if the Boy King will pardon himself as he walks out the door. My gut says no - he knows he doesn't need to bother because the delicate dance of the elites ensures that Cap'n Twenty-percent will be able to retire without worries of being locked up in a Federal prison for his actions. But still - there's a part of me that thinks he really likes to poke people just because he can. And writing himself a pardon as he walks out the door would be a ginormous FUCK YOU to his critics because it would indicate that he 1) knows that he did illegal shit and 2) doesn't really care that other people know.

I doubt that he'll do it, because it would open the door to people being a lot freer with information about what exactly went on and who knew about it (since there'd really be no chance of further "embarrassment" to the ex-POTUS). But then he's never exactly been the brightest bulb on the tree, and his sadistic streak is both long and deep. So he might push one more time, just to "prove" that he can.

(I'm betting Cheney gets a pardon, though. And Rummy. And Alberto. And hell, just to muddy the works I bet he pardons every fucking political appointment he's made in his administration by name - just to keep people running around wondering what the Secretary of Agriculture did that would require a pre-emptive pardon as Bush is walking out the door. That's a Fuck You too, though one of a different caliber).

by nonynony on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 04:29:08 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Yeah, well, it's not like he's trying to burnish his legacy is he?

by sleepy (imcotton1991@yahoo.com) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 05:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Forget about the "except for impeachment" stuff...that's so a president can't pre-empt congress from impeaching someone.

Another thought about pardons: what's to keep a dishonest crook of a president, after leaving office, from continuing to write pardons and just backdating them?

Oh, but he'd never do that. Yeah, right.

I doubt that this has ever come up before, so perhaps there are no precedents or statutes that are applicable.

Jan 21 might be a good day for congress to pass, and Obama to sign, a law that requires presidential pardons to be published in the federal register during a president's term, otherwise they are invalid. (this would not be a limit on the pardon power, so much as it is an instruction to the federal courts on how to interpret pardons).

This would also stop "secret" pardons, or to use the more traditional term: "carte blanche".

by Snarki child of Loki (whatever@snark.r.us) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

Sounds about right to me.

The only pardon the media seems to worry itself about is convict Ted Stevens.

by sleepy (imcotton1991@yahoo.com) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 05:14:07 PM EST

Re: Deep Thought (none / 0)

He will pardon Gonzo and Meiers, because they are subservient nobodies who never, ever had the thought that they would have gotten anywhere without GWB.

He won't pardon Rove, because deep down KR thinks that he's the smart one and that Bush would have been a nobody without him. Bush can't stand the thought that there is anyone in the universe who doesn't worship him, so he will eschew a Rove pardon just to spite him.

Just my prediction.

by rae on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 09:44:38 PM EST

Deep Thought | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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