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So, the new emperor should go and speak to "the Muslims" from an "Muslim capital"? Great! May I suggest Baghdad? That seems the most appropriate to me. (Bitter sarcasm alert.)

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:14:51 PM EST

Oh, you got in the Empire take right before I did. Ha!

by Quentin on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not quite getting where the "emperor" snark is coming from.

by Whispers (rick_desper_at_yahoo.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait! I know, he can speak from Falluja. That would certainly be appropriate in the most perfect way. In fact, let him speak from one of the football fields that had to be turned into mass graveyards after the Americans "pacified" the city in April, 2004 and then turned it into a pile of rubble and corpses in November.

And FYI, anyone at all who was killed in either of these two American massacres is considered a martyr. The Americans were blasting away at anything that moved, including ambulances, and the majority of those killed in the massacres were non-combatants.

Graveyard of the Martyrs, April, 2004, Falluja, Iraq

The gravestone tells us that the martyr in this grave is Abu Abdullah (the father of Abdullah), and he was killed by the Americans. Perhaps the boy weeping by the grave is his son, Abdullah.

The gravestone gives the name of the martyr and the date of his death.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 04:12:06 PM EST

One of several Falluja football fields turned into mass graveyards thanks to the American military.

Graveyard of the Martyrs

Many of the martyrs had to be buried before they were identified. In that case some articles taken from the bodies were placed on the grave and a description of the dead was written on the gravestone to help family, friends, or neighbors with identification after burial. The details on this gravestone include that the martyr buried here was wearing worker's clothes. You can see one of his workboots to the left of the gravestone, and someone is placing some of his other belongings.

No one knows how many people were buried under the rubble of their houses or other buildings and never found.

There were also consistent independent reports of American troops using bulldozers to pick up bodies and dump them into the river. We know for a fact that the US military used white phosphorus against human beings in Falluja. After numerous entirely credible reports from Iraqis they finally admitted it.

This does not show the full scope of it, but it gives some idea.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 04:46:27 PM EST

A Muslim capital? As opposed to a Christian capital or a Jewish capital or a Buddhist capital? I hope this wording was from some hapless underling and doesn't reflect Obama's view of world geography. It just sounds paternalistic and arrogant, shades of Bush/Cheney. To me, this is a damaging leak from an outfit that was until now notorious for its leakproof coolness.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:19:55 PM EST

hapless does not begin to describe this stupidity. How insulting.

Obama has already sent the wrong message that a speech won't heal. Look at the people he has selected....appointments contradict his campaign rhetoric of change. He's hog tied with a Kettle of Hawks

Israel first on bended knee to AIPAC. The statusquo is healthy.

Ain't gonna be no Change.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't find it insulting, but I do find it sloppy.

by BooMan on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe you do not find it insulting because it does not touch you directly. I find it patronizing, insulting, beyond insensitive, and a very, very bad sign of things to come.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 04:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

why should you be insulted that Obama wants to give a speech in the Muslim world?

Maybe the way this was leaked was dumb, but it shows respect, not disrespect.

by BooMan on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 04:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If he wants to show respect, then let him start by showing it to Muslims right there at home - something he has never done as far as I can tell.

Just about the only way he could show respect to the Arabs (not all of whom are Muslims, as you know), and Muslims would be to apologize for all the ills the United States has heaped upon them over the decades, and announce that the country will now take a new direction in its relations with that part of the world, which will start by treating them as equal adult human beings - and then follow through with that. Somehow I don't think that is likely to happen.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, I think it is likely to happen.

I doubt it will be to everyone's satisfaction, but that's too much to ask. I also doubt the rhetoric will be matched by satisfactory action. But I think you'll get an apology of sorts. And I think you'll get a commitment to a new effort on Palestine, as well as improved relations with the whole region.

by BooMan on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope you are right and I am wrong.

As for Palestine, as I have said before, it would be better for all if the United States would stay out of that matter and leave it to other parties who have proven themselves to be more capable and more interested in justice than in keeping Israel lobbyists happy.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 08:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would go way outside the box and choose Fes, Morocco. While Rabat is the official capital, it is only so because of French colonialism in the 1st 1/2 of the 20th century. So it would be seen as a repudiation of Western crusades. Fes also has an unique and epic history of tolerance. European Christians studied there and brought the Arabic numeral system back to Europe; for a long time it had a large Jewish population. It isn't a headline grabber for Western audiences, but if his goal is to speak to Muslims on terms they connect with, then it would be a prudent choice.

by awktalk on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:09:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fez Morocco is very far from the only predominantly Arab/Muslim country that has a "unique and epic history of tolerance".

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 04:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who claimed it was the only? Certainly not I. It is unique, you really can't argue with that statement, and it surely doesn't connotate "isolated".

by awktalk on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed, that is exactly what it DOES connote. Unique means exactly that it is the only one. Your statement means precisely that there is none other like it in its history of tolerance.

As someone who has lived and traveled extensively in the Arab world, as well as parts of South Asia, and who is deeply connected to the region, its people, and its history (specifically in terms of the Arab world, not South Asia, though I am very close to people in South Asia as well), I assure you that Fez is not at all unique in its history of tolerance.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 07:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PS I can and DO argue with the statement that it is unique.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 08:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with Cairo (none / 1)

because of Egypt's history seeking peace with Israel and the anniversary of the Egypt-Israeli peace treaty is within 100 days (3/26/79). Also, they are close to Sudan, and the Darfur genocide can be brought up too.

John McCain hates children

by magster on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:22:32 PM EST

Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship with a seething Muslim Brotherhood looking for an opportunity to lash out.

Maybe he could go to Pakistan, eh? They're our ally. Or go to Syria and see if they've got a nuclear facility. How about Iran? Or Turkey?

If he wants to go overseas, maybe Indonesia.

Myself, I'd suggest Dearborn, Michigan. He could tie in propping up the auto industry at the same time.

by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indonesia is a good choice as he actually has roots there. I was going to suggest Naperville IL.

by The Voice In The Wilderness on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 07:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with Cairo (none / 1)

So, the way for Arabs to prove themselves respectable enough for a patronizing lecture from the new Most Powerful Person in the World is to have an Israeli embassy in their capital city? It's not enough for the whole Arab League to spend the last six years repeatedly offering Israel everything it claims it wants while Israel keeps its middle finger pointed right at them? That's not good enough for

And oh, yes, while you are delivering your stern lecture, DO make sure to give the entire Muslims world a BIG wag of the finger about Darfur. Don't let the fact that it is not about Muslims killing non-Muslims get in your way of making all the Muslims responsible for it.

And whatever you do do not EVER try to treat any brown-skinned people on the other side of the world as if they were equal adult human beings.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did Obama go to Berlin and give 'a patronizing lecture from the new Most Powerful Person in the World'?

Why do you assume that Obama is going to give such a speech?

by BooMan on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a good analogy BooMan. There is no comparison between the way the United States has handled its relations with Germany and the way it has handled its relations to any part of the Muslim or Arab world.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nevertheless, Obama is unlikely to go to Cairo or Amman and give a patronizing, finger-wagging speech. If he does it it will presumably because he has something to say that will bring good will between our respective peoples. That'd be my guess, anyway.

by BooMan on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Based on remarks he has made both during and after the campaign, and his actions so far, including whom he has chosen to gather around him, I am not so sure. No doubt he will be more graceful and eloquent and less in-your-face than the previous administration has been, and will deliver the message somewhat indirectly, but it will be a pleasant surprise if he does not have the same basic condescending, patronizing message that we have heard year after year from the United States.

My mind is not so closed toward Obama's potential as it may sound at times, believe me, and I would happily change my expectations given a combination of words and actions that looked more positive than I have so far seen. Unfortunately, up to now I have not seen anything that encourages me to believe that the underlying attitudes have changed.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 07:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amman, Jordan?

by RollaMO on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:30:00 PM EST

He could get all tricky and pick Sarajevo or Algiers.

Not that he would, but I figured I'd just point out there are other options.

by Windowdog on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:04:45 PM EST

Mecca... During that huge pilgrimage. Iran would be an interesting choice.

Support BooTrib

by Connecticut Man1 (connecticutman1 AT gmail DOT com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:21:46 PM EST

And then maybe Arafat can do a speech at the Vatican on Easter morning.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That would be a neat trick him being dead and all- but that would make Easter a very appropriate date :)

If you seek peace and fulfilment rather than wealth and power you must take up the reins of government or else you will be ruled by tyrants

by Cicero on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With God all things are possible.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If anybody's gonna rise from the grave, PLEASE let it not be `Arafat!

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 07:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If he's going to make a 'major foreign policy speech', I'd suggest the March or September meeting of the Arab League (BBC Profile). More possibilities for direct diplomacy when you have the leadership from 22 countries in the same place at the same time.

by rba (nearnight12@yahoo.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:31:09 PM EST

Jakarta (none / 1)

You almost had it- a bunch of reasons why:
The heart of Islam is not Arab culture. Arab culture is, if anything, a bit of a drag on Islam. All the nasty mores and social behaviors that are the basis for gripes about Islam are more "Arab" than Islamic. Arab culture is no more the heart of Islam than American exceptionalism is the heart of Protestant Christianity.
Addressing the Islamic world in the capital of its most populous nation is wholly appropriate. The fact that it is not an Arab nation would indicate both an understanding of mainstream Islamic values (which aren't very different from everyone else's values) and be a boost to supporters of that view of Islam. Plus he spent part of his childhood there so it would be cute and get some nice play from the human interest angle.

BTW- Merry Xmass BooMan!

If you seek peace and fulfilment rather than wealth and power you must take up the reins of government or else you will be ruled by tyrants

by Cicero on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:31:40 PM EST

Re: Jakarta (none / 0)

that's an odd decoupling, but okay.

by BooMan on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 02:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jakarta (none / 0)

Ding ding ding!

Was wondering when somebody would make the connection between "Muslim" and Indonesia, the biggest Muslim country in the world.

And the choice of Jakarta would explain why an unnamed aide said "Muslim" and not "Arab".

by Whispers (rick_desper_at_yahoo.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jakarta (none / 0)

"Arab culture is, if anything, a bit of a drag on Islam. All the nasty mores and social behaviors that are the basis for gripes about Islam are more "Arab" than Islamic."

Bullshit.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jakarta (none / 0)

Obviously that is a very oversimplified statement and unfairly only addresses the negative aspects of a conflation between Islam and Arab culture; there are as many great things about Arab culture as there are bad things (same for every culture)- and I certainly can't argue with a person from that culture. But a Palestinian Christian has more in common with a Palestinian Muslim that either have in common with a Pakistani or Indonesian of any faith.
As to the existence of a tension between Islamic and Arab culture and mores, and their influence on each other, this has been something that has been self consciously debated within the Islamic community for centuries.
Nice outline articles on the distinct trends of Arabization and Islamicization during the early Abbasid period are here:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/shubiyya

If you seek peace and fulfilment rather than wealth and power you must take up the reins of government or else you will be ruled by tyrants

by Cicero on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 at 05:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jakarta (none / 0)

This extremely vague and unspecific statement does nothing at all to support your argument. What exactly is "Arab culture"? How specifically do you define it? Specifically what are the characteristics of "Arab culture" that are absent in other cultures, and that make "Arab culture" a "drag on Islam"? Please list all those "nasty mores and social behaviors" that you find so objectionable in "Arab culture" that are, according to you, not present in other cultures in which Islam predominates. Once you have listed them, please support your statement that those "nasty mores and social behaviors" are specifically Arab.

Specifically what are those "mainstream Islamic values" as you refer to them, and how are they different from "Arab Islamic values"? What is what you call "that view of Islam" and how is it different from what you apparently think is the "Arab view of Islam"?

As for your link, I only have time right now to glance at it, but it does not appear to do much to support your claims about Arab "nasty mores and values". I would also remind you that Islam originated with the Arabs. Without the Arabs Islam would not be, and without the Islamic (aka Arab) conquest Indonesia would not be a Muslim country. I do not take any pride or shame in that, it is simply a fact.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 at 10:17:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This sounds like a horrible idea, as if the World Emperor takes a tour of the Empire. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. O. didn't even have the decency to stop in at a U.S. mosque during the campaign. That would have been a humble, meaningful beginning to mending relations. It could be that the 2012 campaign has already begun, how would I know. Obama must get out of campaign mode. All his speechifying will solve nothing. In fact I'm sick of it because his ecstatic oratory has very deep, well-defined limits and very little substance.

by Quentin on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 03:21:17 PM EST

We could do worse as a world emperor but he doesn't have that kind of power... unfortunately or fortunately. In fact, he has no actual power right now. He's not a senator since he resigned, and he's not president we already have one for a while longer.

So I ask you. Right fucking now, what can he do besides words?

by MNPundit on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 06:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He can also keep his mouth shut! Or he can say exactly what he's planning to do instead of letting us speculate about leaks or non-leaks. He can do a lot.

by Quentin on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 at 07:40:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gaza City.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 06:14:36 PM EST

I would like to see him go there too. He can thank the young man who was making calls for him before the election.

Ibrahim Abu Jayyeb, a 23-year-old university student, who told The Media Line he is working on behalf of Obama because he is "the kind of person who when he says `I will change America,' [he] will do what he says."

He also said: "I believe that Barack Obama will achieve peace in the area.

Obama can then tell Israel go stop starving the people in Gaza or we'll stop their welfare checks.

by Cee on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 08:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good idea, Cee.

By the way, I have friends in Gaza City, both young men had new baby daughters born about a year ago. Imagine how they are managing. I rarely talk to one of them, but I talk regularly to the other, and what he said to me after the election was "Obama will not help us, but I am still glad he won because he will be better for America." I think he is right, and I think many if not most Palestinians do not expect help from Obama, particularly after seeing his behaviour in front of AIPAC, and his choices of people for foreign policy.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 09:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Obama will not help us, but I am still glad he won because he will be better for America."

That is so very sad. Tell him some here are thinking of him and his family. We are not all AIPAC puppets. We see and will end this injustice.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, Salunga. I will tell him. You know, I wish people could meet him. I have known him for close to ten years. He is a physician. He won a Fulbright scholarship a few years ago for a Masters in Public Health. You can see his kindness when you look at him. It leaks out of every pore. And his wife is a beautiful, lovely lady.

He told me some weeks ago that for the first time in his life he is ready to leave Palestine behind if the opportunity arose. This is what the Israelis want, of course, and he knows that, but now that he has a child, he has to think of her life and her future.

The silence of the United States in the face of this latest Israeli atrocity - literally starving children, for heavens' sake! - is deafening and deeply disturbing.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I would like Ankara, but then I am a noted Turkophile...

by MNPundit on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 06:24:12 PM EST

Maybe, President elect Obama can go to the Muslim equivalent of AIPAC and promise them substantially the same things he promised this other lobby. Then, he could go to Jakarta, Mecca, Amman, Fez or whoever would have him. Excuse me, but I think the emperor's hubris is showing.

Neglect and traumatization of baby animals leads to functional and structural deficiencies in their brains. Ditto for human babies. Alice Miller

by Daredevil Don on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 06:26:40 PM EST

Indonesia, no doubt!!! (none / 0)

Jakarta
A. It let's the Arabs know that theirs is not the only Islam. That has the potential to shift the pole of Muslim thinking.
B. Family History.
C. Would unleash the Might Wurlitzer of 'Publican outrage (always good for a laugh/ThersTBoggRoy posting.

C

"Coach Leary, walking on water wasn't built in a day" -Kerouac

by poicephalus (tribalidentity@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:44:37 PM EST

Re: Indonesia, no doubt!!! (none / 0)

On what authority do you base these statements? What is the source of your knowledge about Arabs? On what and how much direct experience do you base your ideas about Arabs?

What exactly characterizes "the Arabs' Islam", and how is it different from some "other sort of Islam"? In what specific ways is it different, for example, from the Kurds' Islam? The Turks' Islam? The Pakistanis' Islam? The Turkmens' Islam? The Iranians' Islam? The Kenyans' Islam? The Nigerians' Islam? The Malaysians' Islam? The Indonesians' Islam?

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There you go again, Hurria, using logic. That's going to get you into trouble in this culture. I would like to meet your physician friend from Gaza. I too would tell him that not all Americans are the "puppets" of the state of Israel. Unfortunately, this statement does not apply to the US Congress who are deathly afraid of ever antagonizing the Israeli lobby. The Zionists sure know how to instill fear among national legislators.

Neglect and traumatization of baby animals leads to functional and structural deficiencies in their brains. Ditto for human babies. Alice Miller

by Daredevil Don on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:46:41 AM EST