Booman Tribune

Thou Shalt Not Torture

by BooMan
Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 09:00:40 AM EST

The big story this morning is the release of one John Yoo's memos about how legal it is to torture people if the president says so. The lawyers among you will no doubt be appalled. Egads!! Sloppy legal reasoning. Actually, it was just a power-play. They defined themselves as above the law and above international standards of morality. They were wrong.



Display:
Oui has a diary up with more details.

"Little people are very stuff-intensive."
by CabinGirl on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 09:24:20 AM EST
he's always on top of stuff like this.
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 09:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Oui on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 12:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I give you John Boehner, "CHAMPION OF THE RULE OF LAW" and "FIGHTER FOR ACCOUNTABILITY"

Boehner wins $1M judgment

House Minority Leader John Boehner of West Chester Township has won a decade-long court fight against another congressman over an illegally taped call.

A federal judge Tuesday ordered Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Wash., to pay Boehner more than $1 million in attorney fees, $40,000 in interest and $60,000 in statutory and punitive damages.

Here is where it gets really rich.

In a statement, Boehner said members of Congress have a responsibility to obey the laws and defend the integrity of those laws and rules when they are violated.

"Congressman McDermott broke the law, and as a result, he shattered the bonds of trust between our institution and the men and women we represent in the halls of Congress," Boehner said in the statement. "I remained committed to this case in order to begin restoring those bonds, and to uphold the belief that no one - including members of Congress - is above the law."

Wow.  In honor of John I think I'm going to go cry now.

Some comedy just writes itself.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity"

by MikeInOhio on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:18:43 AM EST
illegally recording the phone calls of American citizens!!!  It's an outrage.
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:25:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad you got your anti-lawyer feelings out of the way today early.
by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:02:40 AM EST
I'm not more anti-lawyer than the next guy.  Some of my best friends are lawyers.
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:18:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not more anti-lawyer than the next guy.

I agree.

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is your snark detector on the fritz this a.m.?
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:46:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Must be.  

Of course there is funny snark that doesn't belittle any people or any group of people. I like that kind of snark.

And then there's the rest.  The passive aggressive - oh HOW can you see anything wrong in what I said, it's just snark, kind of snark.  You remember, it used to happen a lot here.

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me give you a hint.  It's not the part that you probably think of as snark.  That didn't bother me.

It was "actually" and "just".

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 11:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My point is that the lawyers will read and scoff at the quality of the legal reasoning (but!!! he didn't even cite Youngstown once!!!), but that's a distraction.  It isn't bad legal reasoning so much as extra-legal reasoning.
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 12:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sigh.   The next time Diane101 tells you that she just doesn't see or hear the dog-whistle racial language, I want you to remember this conversation.

Yes - your point was that 'actually' the lawyers aren't going to write anything worth the time of your readers because that's what lawyers do and everybody should ignore them and instead realize that it's all about 'just' one thing.  

One questions under your interpretation why it was even necessary to fight to obtain a copy of the memo.  You certainly made clear that you don't even need to read it to know what it's all about.  And the time the lawyers will spend - worthless.  

In rebuttal let me link everybody to one of the best legal minds writing today who wrote a post about the Yoo memo this morning and note that he spends exactly one sentence on the legal reasoning in the memo.  

Instead he answers the broader question that you don't quite get to in your conclusion.  If an administration does a power grab like this, is there any chance a supreme court would uphold it and if they would does that mean our whole system is worthless.  And he response leads ultimately to the conclusion that the fate of our constitutional system lies in our hands not in the hands of courts. I actually think this is something worth thinking about AND given the predilication of many of your current and past readers to advocate for taking matters into our own hands, something they might find interesting too.

If the Supreme Court adopted John Yoo's theory of Presidential dictatorship, it might send us spiraling down toward the end of our two centuries' old constitutional experiment with democracy, a possibility that the framers imagined but tried to forestall through the creation of doctrines like the separation of powers and checks and balances. Or it might not. The next Administration might come along, take very different positions, and appoint new Justices who distinguished the bad decision away. But, in any case, it would not simply be a question of us waiting passively for the Court to decide our fates. There are things we might and should do to promote the restoration of proper constitutional government. The fact that the Constitution is in all of our hands, and not simply the hands of the Justices, is the reason why we have a living Constitution.

(emphasis mine)

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 01:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
then that particular lawyer sees it the same way that I do.  It's not about the quality of the legal reasoning, it's about jettisoning all standards of legal reasoning.
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 01:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlike you he didn't insult lawyers as a group on the way to making his conclusion.

And that's not what he said at all.  

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 01:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not really an insult.  Take it that way if you must.
by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 01:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are unfuckingbelievable.  No wonder Diane and Susie and the other women who find your language sexist get so angry at you.  

If a member of a group tells you that they think something is insulting to that group - you should do better than to make a blanket assertion that it isn't an insult.  As if you are the judge of all insults. You might say that you didn't intend it as an insult.  You might even consider apologizing to the person for inadvertantly insulting them if the circumstances are appropriate (and no I'm not saying you need to do it here).  

But to follow up that blanket assertion by telling the person that they should take it that way if [they] must.   From which the person can reasonably infer that you don't give a shit.  Don't be suprised when the reaction is one of anger.  

Racial speech isn't the only type of speech where we should stop and examine it when someone claims it's insulting.  

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 02:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
where the hell is the sexist language?  

Don't just drop that on me.  I don't even think Diane or Susie have ever accused me of using sexist language.  At worst, Susie lumped me in with other people that are anti-Clinton.

That's not right of you to say that.

As for your other point, I'm sorry I offended you.

by BooMan on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 02:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I assumed from Susie's comments that by lumping you in with others she was including use of sexist language.  But if that's not what she meant, then certainly I was wrong.  And I assumed Diane's use of the phrase hate speech somehow implied sexist language. But perhaps I was wrong there too. I'm sorry if I misrepresented why they were upset with you.  

And for the record, I've never thought you used sexist language.

As for the other - I appreciate the apology but it really wasn't that big of a deal :)

by maryb2004 on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 03:29:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
     My blood runs cold at the thought of John Yoo teaching impressionable minds at Berkley. Believe me, a man like John Yoo has nothing of value to teach anyone.
     He is a monster dressed-up as a teacher. He is Neocon-classic; He truly is. The man needs a jail cell-not a classroom or a lecture hall.

On political conservatives: "I was so shocked I nearly dropped the Bible I was using to help me masturbate into my gun." Bill Maher
by lyvwyr101 (greatbear215@aol.com) on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 02:13:11 PM EST


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