Booman Tribune

Can the Blogosphere Please Grow Up?

by BooMan
Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:26:51 AM EST

Barack Obama gave a speech today in Independence, Missouri. You can read the transcript here. It was another moving, excellent performance of the kind we've come to expect from Obama. Apparently, we now take it for granted that Obama will give a great speech, because we no longer give him any credit for them. He spoke of patriotism and of what it means to love this country. Here's just one example:

I believe those who attack America's flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals, and their proven capacity to inspire a better world, do not truly understand America.

Of course, precisely because America isn't perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader or government or policy. As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." We may hope that our leaders and our government stand up for our ideals, and there are many times in our history when that's occurred. But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism.

The young preacher from Georgia, Martin Luther King, Jr., who led a movement to help America confront our tragic history of racial injustice and live up to the meaning of our creed - he was a patriot. The young soldier who first spoke about the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib - he is a patriot. Recognizing a wrong being committed in this country's name; insisting that we deliver on the promise of our Constitution - these are the acts of patriots, men and women who are defending that which is best in America. And we should never forget that - especially when we disagree with them; especially when they make us uncomfortable with their words.

It would be hard to find a more eloquent defense of dissent in this county, but the blogosphere decided to dissent about something other than the war or FISA or torture today. They decided to throw a tantrum over one sentence from this speech that referred negatively to MoveOn.org (without mentioning their name). You should read the full context of his remarks (the offending sentence is highlighted).

My concerns here aren't simply personal, however. After all, throughout our history, men and women of far greater stature and significance than me have had their patriotism questioned in the midst of momentous debates. Thomas Jefferson was accused by the Federalists of selling out to the French. The anti-Federalists were just as convinced that John Adams was in cahoots with the British and intent on restoring monarchal rule. Likewise, even our wisest Presidents have sought to justify questionable policies on the basis of patriotism. Adams' Alien and Sedition Act, Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, Roosevelt's internment of Japanese Americans - all were defended as expressions of patriotism, and those who disagreed with their policies were sometimes labeled as unpatriotic.

In other words, the use of patriotism as a political sword or a political shield is as old as the Republic. Still, what is striking about today's patriotism debate is the degree to which it remains rooted in the culture wars of the 1960s - in arguments that go back forty years or more. In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic. Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day. And yet the anger and turmoil of that period never entirely drained away. All too often our politics still seems trapped in these old, threadbare arguments - a fact most evident during our recent debates about the war in Iraq, when those who opposed administration policy were tagged by some as unpatriotic, and a general providing his best counsel on how to move forward in Iraq was accused of betrayal.

Most Americans never bought into these simplistic world-views - these caricatures of left and right. Most Americans understood that dissent does not make one unpatriotic, and that there is nothing smart or sophisticated about a cynical disregard for America's traditions and institutions.

Even this extensive quoting doesn't put these comments in their full context. To get the full context you need to read the parts where Obama describes the formation of his respect and love for America, its institutions, traditions, and ideals. Only then will you truly understand why he feels strongly opposed to the more strident and wide-sweeping attacks the left sometimes makes on this county.

I am tired of hearing people on the left complain about Democrats that did not want to be associated with the General Betrayus advertisement and that went so far as to condemn it. I condemned it as the stupidest, most self-defeating, and predictably self-defeating political advertisement I have ever seen. I am still stunned that MoveOn placed that advertisement without running it by anyone in Congress to see if they would stand by its message. Of course they weren't going to stand by it. I can't think of a viable party in any country in the world that would stand by an advertisement that accused the commanding general in the field in a time of war of betraying his country merely because he was going to testify before Congress. It's as if eight-year olds were devising this public relations strategy, and the people that are still defending them are like two-year olds.

And I know all the arguments. There is no argument that can trump what actually happened. The anti-war movement never recovered. Our dissent was marginalized. And why? Because, as Obama said, the country doesn't buy into 'cynical disregard for America's traditions and institutions.' The pro-war faction has always understood this. That's why during the Vietnam War the FBI developed their COINTELPRO program to actually incite the New Left to greater acts of violence and radicalism. If you burn an American flag, people stop listening to you. If you plant a pipe-bomb on government property people will want you thrown in jail. Real patriots work to make America live up to its ideals, but they don't attack the institutions themselves because they believe in them. There is an art to effective dissent and there is also an art to undermining legitimate dissent. The Betrayus campaign couldn't have failed these tests more spectacularly.

If you listen to what Obama is saying, you'll understand why doesn't agree with the kind of dissent MoveOn opted for:

As I got older, that gut instinct - that America is the greatest country on earth - would survive my growing awareness of our nation's imperfections: it's ongoing racial strife; the perversion of our political system laid bare during the Watergate hearings; the wrenching poverty of the Mississippi Delta and the hills of Appalachia. Not only because, in my mind, the joys of American life and culture, its vitality, its variety and its freedom, always outweighed its imperfections, but because I learned that what makes America great has never been its perfection but the belief that it can be made better. I came to understand that our revolution was waged for the sake of that belief - that we could be governed by laws, not men; that we could be equal in the eyes of those laws; that we could be free to say what we want and assemble with whomever we want and worship as we please; that we could have the right to pursue our individual dreams but the obligation to help our fellow citizens pursue theirs.

For a young man of mixed race, without firm anchor in any particular community, without even a father's steadying hand, it is this essential American idea - that we are not constrained by the accident of birth but can make of our lives what we will - that has defined my life, just as it has defined the life of so many other Americans.

That is why, for me, patriotism is always more than just loyalty to a place on a map or a certain kind of people. Instead, it is also loyalty to America's ideals - ideals for which anyone can sacrifice, or defend, or give their last full measure of devotion. I believe it is this loyalty that allows a country teeming with different races and ethnicities, religions and customs, to come together as one.

And even more specifically:

I remember, when living for four years in Indonesia as a child, listening to my mother reading me the first lines of the Declaration of Independence - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I remember her explaining how this declaration applied to every American, black and white and brown alike; how those words, and words of the United States Constitution, protected us from the injustices that we witnessed other people suffering during those years abroad. That's my idea of America.

I never lived in a foreign country, but I studied enough history and philosophy to develop a deep and abiding respect for our country's institutions that is very similar to Obama's. And I formed the same understanding of patriotism, which I see as a combination of a defense of our institutions with a constant call to improve upon them. I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to criticizing America but I never do it with wanton disrespect or cynical disregard. And I'm politically astute enough to know that a majority of Americans will not listen nor will they be convinced by arguments that show that kind of disrespect to any of our institutions...including the armed forces.

MoveOn blundered when they launched the Betrayus advertisement and the blame for their decision lies with their decision makers, not with the people that do not care to be associated with their decision. But my problem with the Blogosphere's reaction goes deeper.

There is a stunning lack of maturity in the progressive movement. Maybe it is because we are young and have been out of power our whole lives. But surrogates need to understand something. Obama is the candidate. The candidate wants to push his message. If you become the message, you're no longer pushing the narrative. If you want fame for yourself or publicity for your organization more than you want to elect the candidate or achieve your organization's goals, then you're part of the problem, you're making the candidate's job harder, and you should expect to get a stiff-arm from the campaign. If a surrogate goes off message he or she will get disowned in order to reclaim the narrative that the candidate wants to focus on. Surrogates need to understand this going in and not take it too personally when they get tossed in front of a bus. I am positive that Wesley Clark understands the rules of the game, but it is quite obvious that most of the blogosphere does not.

Barack Obama doesn't want to discuss John McCain's military service. It is not a narrative that benefits him. He doesn't want his allies gratuitously attacking the military and its generals. That is not an association that helps him. It's nothing personal. It's strictly politics. And if your ego gets bruised everytime the candidate stiff-arms an off message progressive, you best get into another line of work.



Display:
Why do people in the states believe that the US is the only country on the planet with these ideals? Some of us get tired of hearing that the US is the "greatest country in the world." You're being conned again. Hypnotized. It works if you're not aware that many other countries do a better job of practically anything you might want to measure. And most do far less harm.
by Dubh on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:55:38 AM EST
I don't think the states are the only country with these ideals or even the one that lives up to them the best.  We are, however, the country that first put these ideals to the test, and we have inspired most of the world to follow our example.  

I don't like talk about how 'we're the greatest in the world' either, but he's making a broad historical argument.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:58:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, like slavery was outlawed in Canada in 1793. We were the Drinking Gourd for your Underground Railroad. I could come up with many more examples. That's why I mentioned hypnotism. People come up here from the States with ignorant arrogance they're not aware of because of this patriotic opiate from their politicians. It prevents them from learning and benefiting from best practices in other countries. They assume they must be the best, so why look around?
by Dubh on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:24:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you on that 100%.  

You do understand that it is kind of typical in this country to talk about how great we are, especially during the Fourth of July time period.  This was a speech about the meaning of patriotism that defined it in non-jingoistic terms and tied it to our founding principles.  I wouldn't get hung up on a sentence about America being the bestest.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:30:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK. It's just that today is Canada Day, and our celebration is so different! (We don't salute our flag, either.) You might be interested in this article by one of your own: "Goodbye, Canada": http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=622850. I appreciate your site/community and your willingness to listen to diverse opinions, including my own. Carry on, brother.
by Dubh on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:36:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a nice piece.
by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slavery was outlawed in Great Britain in 1833.  Abolitionism was a movement without national boundaries.  The US was only one country with such a movement, and here it took a civil war to achieve success.  Well, actually it took 100 more years beyond the War between the States.
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:03:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To put it in perspective Argentina abolished slavery in 1810.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)
by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:54:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it goes without saying that Obama's pride in American institutions does not extend to the institution of slavery.  
by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I never said, nor implied that. I was just adding to the comments of Canada and Englad's abolition of slavery.

To be honest, this country has a lot of things to be proud of (among them the Constitution, which other countries [at leat Argentina] adopted almost word for word). But there are other things that are shameful. And I don't think they are in the best interest of this country to simply ignore them. Why is it that I can't criticize the military? Have they never been wrong?

And, why can't I criticize Obama for doing a 180 degrees turn after he promissed to not support the telecoms inmunity?

Maybe it is because I am from Argentina, a country that has gone far beyond ctiticizing our military and jailed all of them (as well as those civilians that participated in anyway with the military). Or because we have enacted laws that prohibit the government's spying on their own citizens.

If you want me to go back to the place that I was born, tell your corporations to leave my country (Leon Gieco)

by cruz del sur (nicodk@sbcglobal.net) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes to Argentina. Way back in the thread I mentioned that I could come up with many other examples of how the US is not 'the greatest country on earth.' Ignorance or denial of these makes it possible for people in the States to be manipulated by their politicians. If they think the US is the best, they are less likely to criticize or compare or demand improvement. And they won't be aware of how the US has overtly and covertly undermined independence and success in many other countries, like Argentina (see Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine).

I make no claims for Canadian superiority. We have our own reasons for shame, past and present, to acknowledge and correct. But if I had to come up with a partial list of differences between the US and Canada, it would include:

  1. Concern for common good/cooperation over individualism/competition
  2. Respect for international law and dispute arbitration (Canada actually abides by the decisions!)
  3. Preference for multilateral agreements and equality within them
  4. Leadership in the creation of UN peacekeeping, as well as the International Criminal Court and the Ottawa Treaty against land mines (which the US opposes)
  5. Preference for negotiations and diplomacy rather than force; Canada has never raided, invaded, or colonized another country. We've been invaded by the US twice; their plans to take us over militarily were shelved in 1923; since then they've been trying it by other means).
  6. No nuclear weapons
  7. No military bases in other countries
  8. Refused involvement in the wars on Vietnam, Iraq, and in 'Missile Defense'
  9. Opposed to militarization of space
  10. No glorification of militarism and macho behaviour
  11. Open trade and tourism relationship with Cuba
  12. Gun control
  13. No 'War on Drugs,' except under (considerable) pressure from the US; drugs seen as a public health issue
  14. Low prison numbers relative to general population (US is the highest in the world.)
  15. Opposition to capital punishment; Canada abolished it in 1976.
  16. Environmental concern
  17. Belief in social welfare; higher scores in everything (healthcare, maternal/child mortality, privacy, human development, gender equality, student achievement, etc.).
  18. Women's equal rights are in the constitution. Canada granted women's suffrage before the US.
  19. Reproductive rights: Canada has no laws relating to abortion. It's a private matter between a woman and her care provider.
  20. Multiculturalism is public policy, embraced as characteristically Canadian.
  21. Immigration is encouraged, immigrants are welcome.
  22. Ease with interracial marriage
  23. Gay and lesbian equality, including marriage; all laws criminalizing homosexuality were rescinded forty years ago (1969).
  24. Political campaigns are limited, by law, to 35 days; spending is capped and monitored by an independent commission.
  25. Respect for science; no 'creationism' and 'intelligent design' controversies
  26. Wariness and discomfort with overt religiosity, absence of it in public affairs
  27. Wariness of 'patriotism.' We don't salute our flag. We think that's a strange thing to do.

Anybody from elsewhere than the US, I'd be interested in your examples.
by Dubh on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No.  He just perpetuates the political requirement that black people not act too angry about slavery.  His poor wifey can't even have her own opinions about America and its slavery problem.  
by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
give it fucking rest.  Jesus.  

Yes.  You're right.  Barack Obama is responsible for perpetuating the political reality that white people don't respond well to black people that are angry about slavery.  Pure genius.  Anything else you want to lay on his plate today?  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well.  This is yet another aspect I'm not happy with.  I agree with your political assessment that Obama shouldn't make a big deal about white people's distaste for black people with a strong opinion about slavery.

But Obama chose to repudiate his church and his  black pastor because they were too black.  He chose to have his wife shut her mouth about her feelings about her country and its enslavement of black people.  I thought it was politically stupid to sell those people out but I overlooked it before because it wasn't worth the fight.  

But now it's simply further evidence that Obama isn't changing anything.  In fact, he's running farther to the right than I ever imagined.  

Obama laid this on our plate.  He chose to start taking out those to the Left of him and then he sends his minions out there to whip us into line.  You and Obama are bringing this on yourselves.  This is why I said the party is breaking up.  We don't share core values.  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, it would have been nice if Rev. Wright has put his ego in check and taken a long vacation.  But he didn't.  I can't believe you're even bringing that shit up.
by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's always the fault of the liberal that walks into the buzzsaw with you, isn't it?  Don't you see the buzzsaw is set to go off on the Democrat no matter what he does?  Don't you see that the way you defeat the buzzsaw is to stand up to it and fight it?  Not to give in to each time only to let it remain in place so it can chop up the next liberal?

We knew the GOP would throw a hissy fit about two things this election:

  1. Obama is black and angry.  He hangs with black preachers that hate America (like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton--two more lefties you would execute for the greater good).  
  2. McCain is a war hero and Obama is not patriotic enough and does not know how to protect us like Johnny McCain.

Sure enough.  They threw hissy fits over these things.  They were just waiting for a Democrat to walk into a buzzsaw.  There was no avoiding it.  And you and Obama fell for it.  You followed the same loser strategy Democrats have been following forever; you caved-in to this craven hissy fit.  You are blaming the lefties for walking into a buzzsaw that is designed to indiscriminately cut up Democrats--whether they appease the right-wing or not.  You don't defeat a buzzsaw with this strategy.

We're talking past each other here.  The GOP, the media, and turncoat Dems have created an environment where the GOP goes into frenzy mode over nothing and the media and Dems immediately complies with whatever silliness the wingnuts spew.  

Wes Clark didn't say anything wrong yet here you and the centrist Dems are blaming him for walking into the buzzsaw.

It's foolish to always be worrying about the wingnut buzzsaw.  You are lost until you figure out this very simple political reality.

Let me ask you this:  If we did what you wanted, and executed Wes Clark, MoveOn, the ACLU, Rev. Wright, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney, and the other boogeymen on the left would the media and the Republicans finally be giving you love?  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
talking past each other?

Who would you rather have fighting for you?  Martin Luther King Jr. or Al Sharpton?  Paul Wellstone or Dennis Kucinich?  John Lewis or Cynthia McKinney?  Desmond Tutu or Rev. Wright?  

I'll take my advocates without Tawana Brawley, Chemtrails, 9/11 conspiracies, and the government gave blacks AIDs.  

In fact, if I were opposed to my views, I'd actively hire that list to represent the progressives.  

This isn't about buzzsaws.  It's about effectiveness.  We aren't going to rehabilitate that list and make the world safe for progressives thereby.  They are one and all more concerned about promoting themselves then the issues I care about.  And when they advocate for my issues they weaken my position.  Period.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I probably would choose the sames spokespeople you would choose. (e.g. Desmond Tutu over Rev. Wright).  But we don't have the luxury of choosing our progressive friends.  

We have to go to war with the progressive candidates we have not the progressive candidates we wish we had.  It's not efffective for you to shoot all the ones on the left for being too leftist.  You will never achieve your ideal candidate.  It's you that is being too idealistic.

All I ask is that you defend liberals.  They are supposedly your allies.  Look, I don't like the 9/11 truth stuff or other conspiracy theories.  But America is full of conspiracy theories.  Hell, the Republicans would have no one voting for them if they removed from their party those that believed Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9/11.  And some conspiracy theories are no more kooky that other establishment ideas (that we can win a war on drugs--that we need to send troops to the Middle East to make us safer).   And some conspiracy theories are understandable.  Like the AIDS thing.  There is some mainstream evidence (a Pulitzer was given for reporting on this) and the black community certainly has a historical reason for believing this consipiracy.

Look.  These people help your side.  I know you don't see it because the right-leaning people you have contact with are put-off by these Lefties.  But it does help.  We need people making these arguments.  It's a long-term strategy.  I used to be on your side tactically.  I thought if Democrats moved to the center it would help.  I now see that to win the long-term ideological battle we have to support our fighters on the left that are getting attacked.

And Martin Luther King, Jr. would not be involved in the Obama campaing.  He is too radical for Obama.  He said almost the exact same thing that Rev. Wright is saying.  You may not know this but MLK was a very divisive figure back in the day.  But back then Democrats and liberals banded together for a common and core value and were able to achieve victory.  They won the narrative.  MLK is now a hero in this country and has a day named after him (despite McCain's efforts to the contrary).  They won because  liberals stood up for the fighters on their left flank.  MLK today would be a nobody radical.  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If were talking about the specific people that I mentioned rather than a broader definition of the left or far left, then I totally disagree with you.

And I in absolutely in no way think distancing yourself from heavy-baggage leftists is a move to the center.  It's not.  

It's like going into court and discovering that your lawyer, despite being correct on the law, is totally incapable of winning over the jurors.  You don't try to convince the jurors that your lawyer isn't wrong, you replace your lawyer.  

There are many advocates on the left that are available to replace our clowns, but the media likes to invite our clowns on teevee to make sure the face of progressivism is all wrapped up with wacky conspiracy theories and personality-driven media hogs.  It is killing us and there is no profit in pretending otherwise.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's the point.  You don't get to invent hypothetical lefties to defend.  We have to go to war with the lefties we have.  If you want to draft some more lefties--great, that's an awesome idea.  That's great some bloggers tried to recruit new progressives.  Too bad we didn't really look too closely at them and many of them just wanted the money.  But I applaud the effort.

I understand that you like a more centrist Democratic party.  That's fine.  We disagree on policy issues.  But we can't work together on the things we agree on if you are shooting me because I'm too lefty.  It's easier for you because you have the right-wing to help support you.  The right-wing and the media will gladly join forces with you to shoot the lefties.  It happens all the time.  You got your condemnation of MoveOn and you got your characterization of Kucinich as "kooky" and you got your disavowal of angry black preachers and liberal Generals.  But guess what?  It hasn't helped you.  The GOP will gladly turn on you and shoot you for your troubles after you have helped them dispatch with the left wing.  So you're not a big man for taking pot shots at those on the Left.  It's counterproductive.  A big man would find a way to support his allies but speak his mind, "I disagree with the black community's theory that the government started the AIDS epidemic but we must understand that there is a history of government abusing the black commuity.  Of course our country enslaved black people.  And more recently the government even conducted secret medical experiments on the black community.  So while I disagree with them in this particular theory I totally understand the feeling from where it comes and I wholeheartedly support my friends in the black community."  You would shoot these guys as "kooks" and disown them.

Plus, those of us on the Left have realized there is no more useful reason to be allies with you.  Yes, we have more in common that we do with the right-wing.  But we have stopped sharing core values and you don't even attempt to give us  basic political cover.  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're expanding your critique beyond what we were discussing.  So, here we go:

  1. I do not support the standard practice of shutting all progressives out of the national conversation except those that espouse conspiracy theories or are known self-promoting ambulance chasers.  I do not believe it is true that I have to live with these people are my spokespeople.  There is a whole progressive movement filled with smart, articulate, photogenic advocates that are still generally not allowed within a mile of a cable news studio or Sunday morning program.  

  2. I am pissed at the leadership of  MoveOn.org for marginalizing themselves through their own stupidity.  I'm not looking to pile on them, but I get angry when Democrats are attacked for pointing out something I totally agree with.  

  3. I don't want a center-right party.  I want to build the legitimacy and bench of the progressive movement so we aren't just a bunch of opinionated people with no practical experience in governing.  If you haven't noticed, we act like a bunch of whiny-ass titty-babies whenever we don't get what we want.  We want progress in leaps and bounds and constantly threaten to take our ball and go home.  Any time we are disrespected we threaten to vote third-party.  

One thing Arthur Gilroy was right about is that the blogosphere wouldn't spend two seconds after Obama won the nomination to start nibbling his house down like a swarm of petulant termites.

It really is childish.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't Rumsfeld say we had to go to war with the army we have? That worked out so well.

The "coalition of the willing" that takes office in January has to be able to actually govern, just as the Army we sent to Iraq actually needed to win the peace.

Serious friggin' action is needed now to fix so much damage that eight years of negligent governance has created.

That simply will not happen without help from the center and even the right. The electorate needs to send a message that this is not about ideology, partisanship, or control, but rather simple principled competence in government.

by Andrew Longman on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow.  What a self-hater you are.  

Authenticity is the   STUPIDEST test for a politician. MORONIC.  NO ONE IS FUCKING AUTHENTIC.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey dipshit.  

Did I say he should be authentic?  I never fell for the cult of personality like you Obamabots.  I assess my politicians on their deeds.  Not if they are authentic.  I've had this very discussion with Booman before because he criticized Kunich's lack of sincerity and seemed to put a premium on Obama's personality and not his positions.

You really have no justification calling other people stupid when you spill forth such meaningless words as you just did.

Obama told his black preacher and his church of 20 something fucking years to get lost.  

Are you too stupid to see the political costs of doing this or is Obama's shit golden to you?

With geniuses in the blogosphere like you no wonder liberalism is on the rise.

Why don't you go to Daily Kos and yell "purity troll".  Talk about kid games.  You're a second-rate thinker with a first rate big fucking mouth with Obama's shit trickling down your caustic mouth.  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not picking on you, SF, but this just seems like a good place to put this.

Can people try to keep a respectful tone with each other, please?  

No need to call each other stupid.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We need McCain backers like you.  Talk about second-rate thinkers.  Anyone who would back McCain: What kind of a thinker is that?

What would lead a person like yourself to be a McCain backer?  It boggles the mind.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 05:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup.

Hypnotized.

By the most powerful, efficient control system ever invented and put into place.

The American TV-based media.

The ONLY part of America that is "the best".

Bet on it.

But then...that's all that was needed for several decades because the controllers had the population numbers...especially in the working classes ...and the resources. At least it was all they needed until the hypnotism so dumbed down the population that it longer worked well and the numbers grew to a point where the physical needs of the country...obscenely swollen by the basis of the hypnotic hustle, bread and circuses...far outstripped the avaialable resources. But by then it was too late. The jobs and production had gone elsewhere and the mercantile, economic imperialist nation had become a debtor nation.

A nation of clients, not a nation of conquerers.

A nation of sheep, headed for the shearing shed.

Get used to it.

It's going to be a long, cold winter without all of that wool and an even longer road back.

If indeed we make it back.

Suck it up, folks.

And turn off your fucking TVs.

You be bettah off.

NEWSTRIKE!!!

MEDIASTRIKE!!!

VAYA!!!

Wake the fuck up before it's too late.

The greatest nation on earth?

Give me a break.

We can't even win the prison population percentage sweepstakes.

We come in second to South Africa.

Sad.

AG

Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.-Mae West

by Arthur Gilroy (arthurgilroy<at>earthlink.net) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
MoveOn's "Betrayus" ad might have been a bit 'overheated', but it was a needed counterpoint to the Bushies constant "surge is working" drumbeat.

What was working was the paychecks the Sunnis.

I support Obama to the degree that he is willing to defend the Constitution.As he moves to the Right (not to the 'Center', to the Right) & undermines my faith that he will support the Constitution in the face of political expediency, he loses my support.

Words alone, however fine, are not enough.

by sidewinder on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:58:05 AM EST
The problem with the Betrayus thing was, beyond it's silliness (lack of gravitas?), that MoveOn does not have the media power to fight that war. That's one jab versus a hundred thousand punches thrown back by the media.

It's precisely the problem that any progressive will have, to make a point that 1.) gets noticed and 2.) can be defended in the ocean of corporate media. Quite honestly, someone mentioning that crashing a jet does not equal leadership quality should be apparent (if it did, bin Laden would be emperor of the world) and yet we're getting a whole news cycle of Clark-bashing.

Progressive political criticism has to be almost a zen moment: it must sting, the reaction by the MSM has to strengthen the original point, and it has to be dynamic enough to rise above any MSM blackout. Almost impossible to do.

by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:38:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A needed counterpoint?

OMG.

Needed by whom?  

Not by me or any of the values or issues I care about.  We could have just hired David Duke to be our spokesman as long as he agreed to mouth our well reasoned talking points.  

I know how can advance the anti-war movement.  Let's run an ad so off-key that the Congress will condemn us for it.  Then let's blame Congress.  It'll work.  I promise.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:01:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
David Duke? Who's employing 'overheated' rhetoric now?

As for Congress - those spineless milquetoasts wouldn't know how to stand up & defend the Constitution with a 240 page illustrated instruction book.

Every day Pelosi & Reid disappoint - there is no outrage too far over the line for them to back down from, no offense so impeachable that it cannot be swept under the table.

But I don't need to go on with the metaphors - I'm with Steven D -it's time to form a new party, a progressive party, even if it takes 20 or 30 years to gain power, the time to start is now.

by sidewinder on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:59:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, so Obama is brillant at making speeches.

I find the whole thing disgusting that one has to wear the flag on his/her chest to affirm one's patriotism. Yes, it's disgusting that Obama was cowered into adherence of neocon dictates- to wear on a flag pin. Whatever happened before 9/11... How did we express our patriotism? Trappings of Germany 1920-39...a police state. Does McCain wear a flag pin? Did Bush or Cheney serve in Nam? Anyone see the dual standard?

That's my sense of things I'll share with you One Drop, over at Too Sense  Btw, after his father's day speech, he'll find the new AA base sitting home in November. Hope and Change melting like ice in the Gobi.

Breaking News: Obama In Favor of Patriotism

The latest tidbit from the campaign wire is that Obama is in Harry Truman's home town today, giving a speech about patriotism. Apparently, Obama favors it.

On a related note, as part of his ongoing efforts to clear up any confusion, Obama also has short-term plans to give speeches in favor of moms, baseball, apple pie, and ponies. Rumor also has it that he will be wearing a flag pin during each of those appearances. He is also planning to give an exclusive interview to Parade Magazine, with the article to be titled: "Why I Really, Really Like the American Flag." My well-placed sources expect Obama to tell Parade about the fact that when he was in kindergarten his favorite colors were red, white and blue, and he learned to read by using the text of the Pledge of Allegiance.

No doubt, after each of Obama's Super-Swell-Americana speeches, Fox News will helpfully remind its viewers that Obama's middle name is Hussein and that he does, in fact, remain a black man.

I'd have more applauded if Obama had given a long speech on defending our civil liberties - FISA or better yet, had shown up in the Senate to assist Feingold and Dodd in their filibuster.

Obama alluded to the patriots who took a road that surely meant death but he takes the safe road for a one term stint at 1600.

No more speeches on mom, grandmother, the flag or apple pie.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to be kidding? This post is about as inane and meaningless as Obama's speech. So at this time in our country we need a compromising, hypocritical politician more concerned about playing politics than working for justice and the rule of law lecturing us all about patriotism? And what does he say:

"But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism."

This a week or so after supporting a FISA bill that intends to exonerate a bunch of war criminals, aka our fearless leaders and their corporate cronies, who "are out of alignment with our ideals".

This after a long primary campaign in which the insinuation that he would not support any fisa legislation that involved amnesty was pretty much a part of his stump.

Maybe my recognition of a contradiction here is an example of the stunning lack of immaturity present in the progressive movement. Maybe it is an act of dissent on the part of an ordinary american offering up a true expression of patriotism. Either way, who are you to tell citizens who have opinions that differ from yours to grow up?

You know, maybe it's time to give the hero worship some pause and start demanding some principle and consistency from your candidate.

by thersitz on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:16:34 AM EST
Did I mention FISA in this post?

Yes.  Yes I did.  

I criticized the Blogosphere for dropping their dissent on FISA to bitch about one line in an otherwise brilliant speech that bruised their little egos.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I don't believe people are necessarily upset about his moveOn comments as an independent criticism. And if they are, I agree that that one specific point lacks substance. But I also agree with a poster here that the moveOn ad was a worthy anti-dote to all the pro-surge baloney being fed at the time via the media.

My gripe is that I just feel his decision to call them out at this time is nothing more than pandering to the very people WE are running against.

My argument would be that the moveOn comment in conjunction with the clark comments and specifically the FISA crap -- that there seems to be a huge shift in Obama's stance toward the left. And for me this patriotism speech angers me more than I already am about FISA. I mean the notion that he applauds dissent in the face of corrupt government while working to exonerate a corrupt government is baffling.

Why shouldn't the blogosphere be upset at the confluence of these recent acts? Why view the moveOn irk as separate from the others?

I don't know. I come to this site because I find it to be in tune with most of my politics -- so my argument is not with you, it is with Obama. I just don't want another lieberman or hoyer at the top of the ticket. I disagree that he needs to move to the center. We won the house in 2006 and all we got was compromise and cronyism and a rejection of the issues we backed. Now we have a candidate that convinced us he was for change and against the ruinous bushies -- and since his nomination all he seems to do is play steny hoyer.

The blogosphere needs to hold him accountable, not splinter over whether or not it is detrimental to the party to criticize him. It is the blogosphere's job TO criticize him.

by thersitz on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:41:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"The blogosphere needs to hold him accountable, not splinter over whether or not it is detrimental to the party to criticize him. It is the blogosphere's job TO criticize him."

Put more clearly: The blogosphere must lead the Democratic Party over the cliff.

Well, I don't think that is intelligent in the slightest degree.  Politics is the art of the possible.  Purity trolls are not to be allowed to destroy the Democratic Party.

Barack is not perfect.  I am not going to rebuke his lack of perfection.  FISA notwithstanding, he is a good guy, and I am not going to sit around saying awful things like some stupid purity troll.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a book written by Marxist writer Michael Parenti called "The Assassination of Julius Caesar." You can get it for eight bucks used on Amazon. Then dig up a copy of "Brothers" by Talbot about the Kennedy brothers.

Sometimes what the powers that be allow isn't equal to what you want. There are reasons beyond simplistic emotional presumptions as to why there are "compromises" like FISA. Sometimes a middle-right candidate is the best that can survive the political process. When Obama is a threat to the ruling class instead of just complaining about Obama, take some time to take a look at the ruling elite. The usual questions: Who, what, why.

by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't say I disagree with you Boo, on either the subject of "growing up" and neither I was a big fan of the Moveon Ad.

However:

Real patriots work to make America live up to its ideals, but they don't attack the institutions themselves because they believe in them.

And:

I studied enough history and philosophy to develop a deep and abiding respect for our country's institutions

I think this is where you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.  I really DON'T have any respect whatsoever for most of this country's institutions but I hardly think that makes me unpatriotic.

I remember Mark Twain's quote (which I'm quoting from memory) something along the lines of "if you're patriotic, support your country always and you government when it deserves it."

I feel about as much love and respect for these institutions as the "Indians" did for the Stamp Act yea so many years ago in Boston Harbor.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 05:59:52 AM EST
"I really DON'T have any respect whatsoever for most of this country's institutions but I hardly think that makes me unpatriotic."
      Depends what you mean by this. Let's take the US Constitution, for example. There's a whole argument that the Constitution is biased toward the ruling elites, that the system is "fixed."  

Yet everything good that was ever done legally is, by definition, based on the Constitution. The Bush administration is a perfect example of what happens when a government DOESN'T respect the constitution.

So which is it? Do you respect the constitution and disrespect the corruption of the constitution, or do you believe the constitution is fundamentally corrupt? Because if the latter, it is hard for me to understand how you can consider yourself patriotic. On what basis? Because you respect the purple mountains' majesty and amber waves of grain?

by priscianus jr on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps I should've defined what I mean by "institution."  The Constitution is a legal framework for governance which I DO respect and defend, precisely because it contains within itself a specific way that it can be molded, changed and adapted.

Does this mean I respect or have any love whatsoever for the black people are to be counted as 3/5ths part?  Or for the direct appointment of the Senate part?  No.  And those parts are gone anyway so that's moot.

It's the institutions that have ABANDONED all that is good in that Constitution by simply ignoring them or skirting them to the point where they're only adhering to the law by some technical legal fiction.

A couple of examples come to mind:

Only Congress has the power to declare war

Only Congress has the power to mint and coin money

And the 14th amendment has to do with rights for PEOPLE, as in bags of blood and bones, not CORPORATIONS as "legal people".

All of these things and many more have been abridged by our institutions for which I have practically zero respect and certainly no patriotic "love" for.

But let's just take this to an extreme and say ok maybe I DO "only" feel patriotism is the love of the "amber waves of grain" and the mountains and all the people who live there.  Is that so bad?  Just asking ;)

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Wed Jul 2nd, 2008 at 05:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Patriotism: General Wes Clark telling us that McSame's  POW experience, no matter how horrid, is no guarantee of effective policies against terrorism, etc.

And the whole U.S. patriotic noise machine goes into high gear to protect McSame and severely criticize Clark. The conclusion: Clark doesn't know what he's talking about, despite his military rank, and the Obama factotums scurry to assure the the patriots that Obama is a patriot. That's not what Clark said: he said that despite his POW experience, McSame is unqulaified to lead.

Patriots are the little children who are forced to put their hand on their heart and recite the pledge of allegiance because they might be guilty of disloyalty (children!) and now, who know's, terrorism? And adults just perpetuate the degrading custom. Everyone is a patriot (not guilty) until proven otherwise.

by Quentin on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 06:13:51 AM EST
Yes, BooMan, you're right: when will we all grow up, everyone?
by Quentin on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 06:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day. And yet the anger and turmoil of that period never entirely drained away.

If you don't allow flag burning you might as well burn the Constitution. And people have searched very hard for actual evidence of Vietnam vets being spit upon and "dishonored" without finding any examples.

Barack used to leave me uninspired. Now he's making me nauseous.

by Ed J on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 06:51:42 AM EST
I am so sick of this "spitting on returning vets" meme.  It was a fabrication of the right, for God's sake.  Fantastic that Obama is repeating this myth and enshrining it for future generations.  
I was in college, a mere hundred miles away, and engaged with the anti-war movement when four college students were gunned down at Kent State.  I watched the police state violence against the peaceful demonstrators at the Democratic convention in Chicago.   But, to hear our "progressive" leader speak of it, it was the protesters who were the extremists.
For once, I'd like to hear a politician praise the young people who put their careers, and sometimes their lives on the line to protest a grotesque war -- those who refused to go, no matter what the consequences.  You'll never hear that, never.  We just get to hear our "progressive" political candidate repeat lies and smears.  Oh, yes, but we shouldn't criticize.  Somehow we have the power to make him lose, I guess.  If he thought the support of the left was important, believe me, he wouldn't be moving so fast to the right, that he is beginning to look like just another political opportunist.  
Yes, there was a violent fringe to the antiwar movement.  But just as those who murder abortion providers are not representative of the pro-life movement, those who burned flags and bombed buildings did not represent the rest of us.  The vast, vast majority of us in the antiwar movement were patriotic and non-violent.
Obama can dis us all in order to get votes.  Excuse me, though, if it damps my enthusiasm.  I guess I just need to "grow up."
by CarolynC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having been a long-haired hippie who was ushered into the army in 1971, I have to say that I was never treated as well as when I was in military uniform in public.

When I was long-haired and driving a VW bus I got a glimpse into understanding prejudice and discrimination: getting stopped routinely by police, illegal searches, getting shoved around, called names.

Being in the army with my hair shorn, people treated me like a prince. Free drinks in bars, people coming up to me in airports and slapping me on the back, wanting to introduce me to their daughters.

Of course, Barack was only ten years old and building bombs in his basement with Bill Ayers, so he doesn't have much of a memory of the world back then (snark).

When Obama talks about this stuff he's entering America's Fantasyland, a shared psychotic separation from reality. As disturbing as it is for the reality-based community, it drives the Repubs even crazier because they need that shared psychosis to rule. It's brilliant politics on Obama's part.

by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:01:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd also like to hear a politician just once praise the anti-war protesters-maybe it's happened but I don't recall it.  Not likely anyone in that generation is ever going to be called 'the greatest generation' ala Tom Brokaw's crappily named book about WW11 vets.  And I'm not dissing the WW11 vets mind you it's just that I find that title offensive to every other generation who has lived and fought in this country.  For our independence, the civil war, for the right to form unions, women's right to vote, for civil rights and so on.

And as far as I'm concerned burning the flag is the ultimate right of free speech-a protest waged in the most spectacular way possible to get people's attention.

Obama's speech was ok, very good in places yet pretty lousy in a few places but I suspect he hit all the notes he wanted to hit for the general public.

'Poverty is the worst form of violence'--Gandhi

by chocolate ink on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My point on flag-burning was not that it should be illegal.

My point was that while flag-burning may get you some attention, it will not serve as a winning argument.  

We used to have a member here who was one of the Gainseville Eight.  I forget his username or I would post his diary about his group was infiltrated by FBI informers and incited/entrapped into plotting illegal acts.  That is how you marginalize a war protest.  If you can get them to burn flags, you've already destroyed their argument.

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:43:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understood what you meant BMan.  I was just stating my personal opinion on flag burning.  I also believe you are right to a certain extent as to the perception anyway in the general publics mind-usually seen as an unpatriotic deed rather than probably being the opposite intent of the person burning the flag.  To my mind someone who goes to the extreme to burn the flag is doing so usually to point out in fact that the government is actually doing some deed that is or would be considered unpatriotic.

'Poverty is the worst form of violence'--Gandhi
by chocolate ink on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 04:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The blogosphere is not going to grow up, because the blogosphere is full of partisans.  I wouldn't suggest it's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing (a little of both), but it is what it is.

The line about MoveOn was pointless.  The speech was fine, and, yes, I expect Obama to deliver good speeches just as I expect Alex Rodriguez to hit home runs.

Here's my rundown of what's gone on over the last couple weeks:

Clark's comment was correct, but he should've known it'd be a distraction at best, and an easy opportunity for the press to polish McCain's knob at worst.

Obama fucked up on FISA by apparently falling for the Democratic delusion that voting for "security" means the Reps won't portray you as "soft on terror," and he deserves an earful from the netroots.  I'm pissed off about that, too.

Beyond FISA, the whole obsession with Obama's supposed "move to the center" strikes me as a lot of bullshit from the press and paranoia from the netroots.  The netroots need to put the Dana Milbank columns down and get a fucking grip.

Obama's a politician.  If people want the illusion of perfection, they should join a church.  Politicians dress up their platforms with centrist rhetoric during general elections, even though, in Obama's case (again with the exception of FISA), the policies haven't changed.

The blogosphere, especially the Great Orange Satan, is full of drama queens.  Many of them, I see, are now commenting here.  Stop buying into right-wing memes, and get the fuck over yourselves.

Buncha God-damned drama queens.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:34:18 AM EST
I'll add: Democrats really are the Mets fans of politics.  The moment a real or imaginary disturbance in The Force(TM) is felt, they turn on each other.

Eyes on the Prize, kids, or just STFU.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:38:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and not speaking up when your party's candidate shoots himself in the foot by repeating that congenital Democrat's mistake, dissing your supporters and trying to be all things to all people, is going to really help.  Someone needs to tell Obama that being all things to all people almost always ends up with being nothing to no one.  Ask John Kerry how well his "move to the center" helped him in 2004.
Americans want leaders who believe in something, not leaders who will say anything just to get elected.  
The jury is still out on Obama, but there are worrisome signs.
by CarolynC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:58:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Correction: "being all things to all people, almost always ends up being nothing to no one," should read, "being all things to all people, almost always ends up with that person being nothing to anyone."
by CarolynC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:15:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FISA cave-in = Clinton's "mistake" in not pursuing Iran-contra-October Surprise-S&L debacle-Cocaine Importation Agency = no Carter followup to the HSCA.

Do people here really think that all of these decisions are just a lack of testosterone when facing flabby old Republicans on the Senate floor?

There is so much whistling past the graveyard around here you'd think we were watching "The Bridge on the River Kwai."

by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:13:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you're working with the assumption that he is, indeed, moving to the center in a big way.  But, while I've seen the Very Serious People in the press, along with the blogosphere resident pop-sociologists (Bowers and Stoller), babbling about this, I don't see it.

And, instead of trying to help right the Obama ship on FISA by (say) pushing him to come out more publicly saying he'll pursue prosecution, you and others would rather sit there, pissing and moaning about how he said something that wasn't Christlike according to your tastes with regard to MoveOn or Clark's comment or whatever.

I've little time for the Holier Than Thou crowd.  We have a war to end, tens of millions of people without health care, what could be the worst economic crash since the Depression, and any number of other big-picture, life-and-death issues to deal with.  The fucking planet's burning down around you, and all you can do is bitch about crap that is absolutely meaningless to people's everyday lives.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But he just made it much harder to end the war.  He encouraged the Dems to pass Bush's war spending bill.  He is using rhetoric that will box him in and make it hard to effect withdrawel.  He is laying the groundwork for an attack on Iran.

One would have to do a lot of guessing and hoping to have the idea that Obama wants to end the war and not start another war.

If you want to do the hard work to do that then you better try to influence Obama now.  After the election he will have even less reason to listen to you.  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe not towards the center (whatever that is) but certainly not towards respect for the Constitution and the law.  Last week the Fourth Amendment.  Today the First Amendment.  As I've said elsewhere, onllly 8 more to go.
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:33:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What on the First Amendment?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He agrees with Bush on faith-based initiatives.
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He doesn't agree with Bush. I don't see where you get that.

He is NOT going to allow discrimination in hiring for federally supported positions.  That quote was incorrect.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the circular firing squad is in full effect.

I wish Obama would take a chill pill on the Centrism-push because he's feeding the left more than they can digest.  

by BooMan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The circular firing squad is our problem, not his.  As I said, I'm completely onboard with giving him an earful over FISA, but this business of throwing a collective temper tantrum over the faith-based initiatives and Clark's statement -- bitching about things he didn't even say -- has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the blogosphere allowing the press to shove narratives down its throat, which is ironic, considering that the blogosphere is supposed to be a place that doesn't take the press seriously.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:29:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't you see you are the Mets?  Not the Left?  

We are way in front of the rest of the division and some on the team are starting to take it easy because they see victory.   So they are giving the other team free runs.  

Those on the Left are saying let's keep playing the way that got us here.  Hard-nosed baseball.

You and Obama  want us to start playing softball, or something.

(Sorry about slaughtering the analogies-I tried)

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I proposed no such thing.  What I proposed was continuing to push Obama on FISA, and not getting tangled up in bullshit non-issues the way so many here seem determined to.  We come to find that Obama didn't even say any of the things he's being attacked for by many on the blogs.  My point is: Grow up.  Fight the battles on real issues (like FISA) instead of eating up press memes about Clark and faith-fased initiatives and OhmygodheistehselloutnomoreMagicNegro!

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:36:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama said he wasn't perfect. He isn't.
He said he would disappoint us. He has.
I'm over it.
He has to win.
I'm going to continue to donate and work my ass off to get him elected.
by Cee on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:56:36 AM EST
Honestly, I could care less about the Clark thing.
it's crap like FISA that pisses me off.
Or crap like I'm reading right now, Obama to expand Bush's faith=based programs, including apparently to "support some ability to hire and fire based on faith."

Paid for with federal tax dollars. Disclosure: i work for a human services agency affiliated with the Lutheran Church, but there is NO proseletyzing and no faith-requirement (or anything else discriminatory) in our hiring.

It's the actions that are beginning to bug me, and a lot of what I've been reading lately doesn't strike me as "explanation" so much as it strikes me as "excuses".

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:58:25 AM EST
Federal funds going to agencies that deny employment to people on the basis of their beliefs is unconstitutional.  Would federal funds ever be used to support the work of an agency that only employed Buddhists?  No, it will only go to Christian organizations.  So much for the establishment clause.  
Shades of creeping authoritarianism.
by CarolynC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I find entertaining and illuminating is seeing what Obama says versus what he knows is illegal and unconstitutional (from his education) versus his actual beliefs versus what he believes he can get away with in 2008.

Even if you only get to look at the shadows you can still get a better understanding of the ruling class, even if they remain invisible.

by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it is incredibly sad to watch people who should know better advocate policies that are unconstitutional.  We have seen so much of this in the Bush administration, that no one is even surprised any longer.  Mouth platitudes about supporting the Constitution, and then proceed to advocate policies that violate it.
We're one Supreme Court member away from kissing away the principles this country was founded upon.
That's why I will vote for Obama, even if disapprove of this and other positions he has taken.  That doesn't mean I will be silent when he is wrong about something.  
People who tell other people they are "drama queens" and proceeds to tell people who criticize their favored candidate to "shut the f*@k up," are revealing their own emotional immaturity, as they pose as Serious Responsible Adults here.
by CarolynC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I need to update my comment above. According to atrios and tpm, the AP had it wrong.  

Obama specifically said:

"Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don't believe this partnership will endanger that idea - so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them - or against the people you hire - on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we'll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work."

That's very different from the AP's earlier report.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This might be one of the few times when AP getting it wrong is a good thing!
by smkngman3 on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am pleased to see that the comment was wrong before.  I thank you for posting the correction.

I see no problem with certain types of faith based initiatives, provided there is accountability, and no discrimination.

by dataguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Take a look at Lemon et al. vs Kurtzman et al., decided by the SCOTUS in 1971.  A real breach in Jefferson's wall, and a clear indication of how difficult it is to identify and separate secular from religious activities.  My point is that it is easy to say only secular activities will enjoy government support, but in practice that is very, very difficult to achieve.  If even possible.
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The perpetually adolescent Arianna Huffington has a good piece on Obama's move to the right. (And let's not call it "to the center". He was at the center to begin with.)
Looking at the Obama campaign not through the prism of my own progressive views and beliefs but through the prism of a cold-eyed campaign strategist who has no principles except winning, I can unequivocally say that by running to the middle in an attempt to attract undecided swing voters, the Obama campaign is making a very serious mistake. Fixating on -- and pandering to -- this fickle crowd is all about messaging tailored to avoid offending rather than to inspire and galvanize. And isn't galvanizing the electorate to demand fundamental change the raison d'etre of the Obama campaign in the first place? Watering down that brand is the political equivalent of New Coke. Call it Obama Zero.


Obama is a tool of corporations, the Israel lobby, and the military-industrial complex. And yet again, we have to choose the lesser evil.
by Alexander on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:09:14 PM EST
Good grief.  Grow up?  By mindlessly supporting Obama?  The DailyKos Obama Kool-Aid boys are in charge of the lefty internets and they want to win (victory=Obama victory, not progressive victory) at all costs.  

You are horribly wrong on the major point.  Why in the world would you want to undercut one of your best advocates on the Left for withdrawing from the Iraq quaqmire?  As well as the many others that make the same point that the Republicans do not make us safer?  You say it's just words but these words matter.  The Dems caving in on the words they use every time the Republicans throw a fit shows the public that the Dems can't be trusted on national security.  The Republicans talk tougher and the Democrats always cave-in so the public thinks Republicans are better at military affairs.  Words (or the lack thereof) have allowed the war to continue much longer than necessary.  If Democrats had spines (like real men, not the Kos Kool-Aid boys for Obama) they would have been saying the things Clark says 4 years ago and this war would likely be over.  Instead Obama is choosing to speak like Joe Lieberman!   And you say it doesn't matter it's just words?

In fact, you actually said one of the best things about Obama was not his platform (because its center-right and an uninspiring platform) but was his style of politics that made him a good candidate--that he was good at framing debates and wouldn't accept right-wing bullying.  Well, you and Obama have done complete 180s and now have the gall to tell us to grow up?  Now Obama is just another center-right Dem using right-wing language.  I didn't know that this "change" in style was purely cosmetic.  Was that your brilliant strategy?  To re-brand the Democratic label by getting the young hip black guy up there but to still have him talk like Joe Lieberman?  

And you're wrong on the Betrayus ad.  It was attempting to do the dirty work that no other liberals wanted to do but needed to be done; they needed to try to chink the armor that the media, the GOP, and the Dem stooges put on Petreus.  The Dem stooges (like you) are always so scared of the other side you allowed Petreus' words to become larger than life and he became a huge potent weapon to continue the war.  MoveOn was the only group willing to take on the shibbolith.  Same with Wes Clark.  Liberals need those on the Left to say things centrist Dem appeasers can't or won't say.  And centrist Dems need to grow up and realize that these are patriots to the left of them and are their allies.  And Wes Clark and MoveOn were attempting to remove this cloak of infallibility that the media are wont to put on Generals and McCain and you centrist appeasers go out and execute your allies on the Left flank!  And you tell those of us standing next to MoveOn and Wes Clark to stop our "whining" and get back in line for Obama!

Well, this soldier doesn't join an army with a bunch of traitorous cowards.  You Obamabots can go play you silly little personality horse race game.  I'm keeping my eyes on actual policy goals.  And it's rather refreshing to know the truth; that Obama is an enemy of progressives.  This frees me up to return fire at him.  I don't take kindly to people that claim to be on my side trying to take my comrades out.  

And you're wrong.  The right-wing continually "goes there" and uses extreme rhetoric.  Don't you remember Bush calling the Democrats appeasers on the Knesset floor?  You didn't see his caucus running to the Senate floor to condemn him.  The right-wing would never condemn its best fighters on the right like the left does to its left flank.  I can't believe you flip-flopped on this important tactic (and I thought that's the "change" you wanted from McChange?  Not policy but his style?).  But I guess you never agreed with me.  You want to shoot MoveOn, Wes Clark, Kucinich, and well, anyone to the Left of Obama that has the temerity to speak up.  

Obama is a loser.  He may pull out an electoral victory in November.  Which is evidently enough for these Kos Kool-Aid tools (Booman included).  That's all the victory they want--to randomly pick a horse and bet on him and watch him "win".  But Obama has shown that he will do very little to remedy the right-wing takeover of this country.   That's not victory Booman.  Maybe you will recognize defeat when you see it in one or two years.  You need to grow up a bit before you do though.  

by SFHawkguy on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:14:23 PM EST
Obama gives excellent speeches.  I'm still annoyed by some of his actions, like the FISA vote.
by RustyPipes (rustdotypipesatyahoodotcom) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:11:00 AM EST
Basically spot on, Booman. Yeah, Obama's done disappointing things, but did progressives ever expect him to be 'perfect', whatever that may mean?

The answer is simple, but there are enough people out there on the intertubes to get it wrong.

by PsiFighter37 on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:30:09 AM EST
I didn't expect him to be perfect.  But I did expect leadership and courage, particularly on Constitutional issues.  What we suddenly seem to be seeing is a poll-driven campaign that doesn't provide the change in policy and tone that I had hoped for.  It is a big dish of "more of the same."  The country is hungry for different vittles.  He ought to be able to win the general, as he did the primary, on the change theme.  Why would any candidate move towards the failed policies of President 29%?  It doesn't make any practical sense to me.  And from a principle standpoint is simply loathsome.
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Arianna Huffington's

Memo to Obama: Moving to the Middle is for Losers


The Obama brand has always been about inspiration, a new kind of politics, the audacity of hope, and "change we can believe in." I like that brand. More importantly, voters -- especially unlikely voters -- like that brand.

Pulling it off the shelf and replacing it with a political product geared to pleasing America's vacillating swing voters -- the ones who will be most susceptible to the fear-mongering avalanche that has already begun -- would be a fatal blunder.

Realpolitik is one thing. Realstupidpolitik is quite another.



Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"
by idredit on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Booman, I can't believe that you are being more of a sycophant (Kos's word) to our new Hillary stand-in than Kos!

If you are going to be more of a sycophant to the post-nomination-fight right-of-center Obama than Kos, what useful purpose do you serve? Maybe you should hand over the blog to Steven and find something else to do.

Obama is a tool of corporations, the Israel lobby, and the military-industrial complex. And yet again, we have to choose the lesser evil.

by Alexander on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 03:02:54 AM EST