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Open Thread

by Steven D
Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:22:10 PM EST

Ever wonder why atrocities happen in wartime? Why genocide can occur among populations of supposedly civilized, cultured societies of "good people." Why the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib was perpetrated by a group of otherwise seemingly normal Americans. Do you think that such deeds are solely the fault of a few flawed, sadistic, evil individuals, or is there something else at work that contributes to these monstrous examples of inhumanity?

I have a book suggestion for you: The Lucifer Effect by Phillip Zimbardo. It's now out in paperback and provides detailed case as to why situational and systemic effects have more to do with the occurrence of evil actions by groups than the character traits or psychological makeup of the individuals who participate in them. It's based on social psychological research over the past 6 decades, including a close re-examination of Zimbardo's famous Stanford Prison Experiment, and his work as a defense witness for one of the Abu Ghraib prison guards prosecuted by the military. Read it and you'll see how the actions of those who created the situation (the war in Iraq) and the system for dealing with detainees in the war on terror (i.e., the highest officials in the Bush administration and the Pentagon) are ultimately and inevitably responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib and the other wartime atrocities by US forces in Iraq.

Ps. What are you reading this summer?

Open Thread | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

I have just obtained and begun to read Iraqi Women: Untold Stories from 1948 to the Present by Nadje Sadig Al-Ali. I wish it were required reading for Americans. It would explode all the myths they have been fed about Iraqi society and Iraqi women.

I have also been working my way through Spider's Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq" by Alan Friedman. Not a story I was unfamiliar with but it certainly does a great job of fleshing out and documenting details, including naming names.

I strongly recommend Dahr Jamail's book, Beyond the Green Zone: Dispatches from an Unembedded Journalist in Occupied Iraq. And I heard he is working on a new book now. He is quite a remarkable guy to say the least.

Also recommend The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:19:17 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

"Why the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib was perpetrated by a group of otherwise seemingly normal Americans."

That one is simple. They didn't think all that stuff up on their own and decide to do it, they did what they were told to do. They were following policy as they were instructed to do, and the policy came from the very top levels.

My question would be what kind of scum ball so-called human beings would agree to treat other human being in that way under ANY circumstances. It would take a hell of a lot more than policy to induce that kind of behaviour in me and most people I know.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:36:48 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Ever hear of the Milgram experiment? The one where volunteers were asked to shock other individuals to see the effects of punishment on learning. In fact they weren't really shocking anyone but they thought they were -- the real experiment was to see how far people would go to harm others merely under the influence of the experiment's authority figure Here's the description of the experiment. Before the experiment psychologists were asked how many people they thought would go through with "shocking" the "learners at the highest level. They said only 10% would go that far. In fact 65% did. And everyone shocked the "learners" to some extent. No one flat out refused to proceed until they reached the highest levels of electrical shock (over "300 volts).

Most of us, statistically speaking, have the capacity to act as scumbags under the right conditions.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Didn't someone just repeat and update that experiment? I think I read about it within the last two weeks.

The only difference is they weren't allowed to raise the voltage as high - it was just too traumatic for the study participants.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 08:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 1)

Btw - couldn't find what I was looking for, but this is equally interesting:

#5. The Asch Conformity Experiment (1953)
The Setup: Solomon Asch wanted to run a series of studies that would document the power of conformity, for the purpose of depressing everyone who would ever read the results.
Subjects were told that they would be taking part in a vision test, along with a handful of people. The participants were then shown pictures, and individually asked to answer very simple and obvious questions. The catch was that everybody else in the room other than the subject was in on it, and they were were told to give obviously wrong answers. So would the subject go against the crowd, even when the crowd was clearly and retardedly wrong?
The Result: Questions the subjects were asked were like the puzzle shown here:

All they had to do was say which line on the right matched the one on the left. As you can see, Asch wasn't exactly asking these people to design the next space station. Really, the only way you could get the line questions honestly wrong is if you took two doses of LSD that morning and rubbed them directly on your eyeballs (which would have made for an even more awesome experiment, but we're getting off the point).
Yet, sadly, 32 percent of subjects would answer incorrectly if they saw that three others in the classroom gave the same wrong answer. Even when the line was plainly off by a few inches, it didn't matter. One in three would follow the group right off the proverbial cliff.
Click here to watch a video clip of this experiment.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 08:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

It would take a hell of a lot more than policy to induce that kind of behaviour in me and most people I know.

you hope.

I haven't yet read Lucifer Effect but I know about the Stanford Prison Experiment, and what it showed was that it took surprisingly little to induce awful behavior in randomly selected people. Much less than Zimbardo had expected.

The Four Horsemen of Bushism: War, Corruption, Hypocrisy and Greed

by esquimaux (esquimaux1 at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 11:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Yep, as a psych major, I remember that one. He had to stop it very early, before it got really out of hand.

by Joyful Alternative on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 02:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 1)

"the actions of those who created the situation (the war in Iraq) and the system for dealing with detainees in the war on terror (i.e., the highest officials in the Bush administration and the Pentagon) are ultimately and inevitably responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib and the other wartime atrocities by US forces in Iraq."

For sure the responsibility goes all the way to the top. However, people are ultimately responsible for their behaviour and I, for one, will not let off the hook the people who actually committed the crimes on behalf of their "leaders". "I was following orders" is not a defense. Neither is "I was caught up situational and systemic effects".

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:40:37 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 1)

No one is asking you to let them off the hook for their actions, but failing to acknowledge the effects of social situations and systems in which human beings operate would be foolish. We can't solve the problem of evil by focusing solely on the individual's responsibility. Our current justice system which focuses on incarceration ought to be enough proof of that fallacy. We also need to look at how social settings can pre-set the scene for bad outcomes. Wedding ourself to a belief that only individuals are too blame for horrific events fails to do anything to prevent future atrocities when those same situations and systems which helped create those atrocities are replicated.

Read the book if you can get a hold of it. Its well written and well documented.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

"Wedding ourself to a belief that only individuals are too blame for horrific events..."

That's not what I said, is it?

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

No, you didn't. My bad.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 1)

I'm almost finished with the "Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. The first section on the industrial-agricultural-military complex made me want to stop eating until I can -- once again -- grow my own. The middle section is devoted to Joel Saletin and his grass pasturing. Now I'm reading how he justifies eating meat.

Before this, I read "Before & After Getting Your Puppy" by Dr. Ian Dunbar. Subtitled: "The Positive Approach to Raising a Happy, Healthy & Well-balanced Dog." Halfway thru I realized my daugher-in-law is using this same method to raise my grandboys.

by sjct on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:44:01 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

I'd be afraid to read that first one, lol.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

After you finish Ian Dunbar's book read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. It is a small book and an easy read. It's based on Skinnerian principles of behaviour shaping, and contains principles and techniques you can use with any animal, including people.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 1)

no discussion on Bush's U-turn on Iran?

Bush has caught up, taking advice from Obama on engaging Iran:

After 30 years, US to send diplomats to Iran

The US is planning to establish a diplomatic presence in Tehran for the first time in 30 years, a remarkable turnaround in policy by president George Bush who has pursued a hawkish approach to Iran throughout his time in office.
The Guardian has learned that an announcement will be made in the next month to establish a US interests section in Tehran, a halfway house to setting up a full embassy. The move will see US diplomats stationed in the country.
The news comes at a critical time in US-Iranian relations. After weeks that have seen tensions rise with Israel conducting war games aimed at Iran and Tehran carrying out long-range missile tests, a thaw appears to be under way.
The White House announced today that William Burns, a senior state department official, is to be sent to Switzerland on Saturday to hear Tehran's response to a European offer aimed at resolving the nuclear standoff.
Burns is to sit down at the table with Iranian officials in spite of Bush repeatedly ruling out direct talks on the nuclear issue until Iran suspended its uranium enrichment progamme, a possible first step on the way to building a nuclear weapon capability.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:44:44 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

One wonders what is going on inside the bowels of Bush administration, these days. Supposedly the Cheney faction was furious with the decision to cut a deal with North Korea, a deal they could have had back in 2001. Does this mean Rice and Gates hold the upper hand? Or is it all a diversion to offer a fig leaf excuse for a future attack by the US and/or Israel, the old "we tried but we failed" ploy?

I can't tell you to be honest. One hopes for the former, but it isn't a hope based on past performance, that's for damn sure.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Seeing the Bush gang's reaction to the public's reaction, this "talk" (Burns is going to listen not negotiate) could be a set up for an October surprise.

Same As Iraq...later tells us talks were futile. "See Obama, we told you."

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Yeah - Embassies also serve as CIA stations in some places. This reeks.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 09:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Iranians are well aware.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 03:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 1)

short attention span so eah room has a book going...
office has Clive Cussler's latest audiobook; kitchen has Gary Nabhan's Renewing America's Food Traditions & Greg Atkinson's West Coast Cooking, and the living room has Debating Democracy by Bruce Johansen. All winners

by mainsailset on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:59:05 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

My wife used to love to read Clive Cussler.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

well he is fun and I like that he's an avid historian and that his bad guys are all Dick Cheney's.

by mainsailset on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

surprise! (none / 1)

it's getting hot and heavy in the WH with all the subpoenas and whatnot...what's a ~~chump~~ chimp to do? more executive privilege! that, that's the ticket:

Bush claims privilege to withhold CIA leak records
WASHINGTON - President Bush invoked executive privilege to keep Congress from seeing the FBI report of an interview with Vice President Dick Cheney and other records related to the administration's leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity in 2003.
The president's decision drew a sharp protest Wednesday from Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of House Oversight Committee, which had subpoenaed Attorney General Michael Mukasey to turn over the documents.
"This unfounded assertion of executive privilege does not protect a principle; it protects a person," the California Democrat said. "If the vice president did nothing wrong, what is there to hide?"
Waxman left little doubt he would soon move for a committee vote to hold Mukasey in contempt of Congress...

sternly worded letter to follow...again...and the kabuki continues. any wonder the congress' approval rating's in in the tank?

the revolution will not be televised...

by dada on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:18:24 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

I'm reading a book by some Kelly McCullough guy. ;-)

Oh, there you are, Perry. -Phineas -SLB-

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 08:38:25 PM EST

Summer reading (none / 0)

I'm reading The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein, and Bad Money by Kevin Phillips (I'm also reading a book called The Seven Emotions, but that's a professional read:).

Naomi's book really is putting together the many other books and essays I've been reading over the last 10+ years since I got reactivated in politics and world social/economic change. Creating psychological instability, shock, economic chaos allows economists to introduce Milton Friedman's neoliberal, neoconservative "free" market shock therapy. There have been major proponents of this, such as the sainted Jeffrey Sachs, one of the great Torquamada's of the 20th century.

The rapid versions of this happened in Poland, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Russia, etc.

The slow version of this shock therapy is happening in the United States at a very slow pace, due to the deeply entrenched middle class inertia in our economy, but the deep unease in the majority of the American public is indicative of the pressure corporations/Party politicians are putting on us to accept full free market principles such as the destruction of Social Security and for instance, the drive to privatize all offshore shelf acreage for the oil corporations.

Chilling, dark, painful read, but so very worth the agony.

Share. Share resources, share delight, share burdens, share the healing. Sharing will bring us back from mass suicide. www.share-international.org

by Isis on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 08:39:02 PM EST

Re: Summer reading (none / 0)

I was going to mention The Shock Doctrine, which I just bought because I found out that it's out in paper now.

by Alexander on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 09:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

I am waiting for a used copy of Doug Valentine's book on the Phoenix Program in Vietnam.

I keep going back and rereading sections of HARVEY AND LEE by John Armstrong, an absolute necessity for anyone who cares about the JFK assassination. A thousand pages with another 100 pages of footnotes, plus a CD-Rom of documents and photos. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print. I saw one copy on eBay for 175 bucks.

by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 09:22:07 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Anyone seen these yet?

I just saw one today and have to say, it gave me a chill. I thought instantly of the SS. Do people realize how very close to that we truly are?

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 10:00:17 PM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

oh, I sure realize it. "Homeland Security" is the ugliest Orwellian thing USA has ever come up with.

now I have to go google "federal protective service". WTF?
I know the FBI and U.S. Marshals, who are these guys?

The Four Horsemen of Bushism: War, Corruption, Hypocrisy and Greed

by esquimaux (esquimaux1 at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 11:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mission of FPS and Outsourcing of Duties (none / 0)

.

The Office of Federal Protective Service (FPS)

Is now a branch of the U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

By 1960, the mission of FPS became the first line of defense against bomb threats, bombings, vandalism, mass demonstrations, and violence against Federal buildings.

More recently, the role of the FPS officer has undergone further changes. The FPS has shifted its emphasis from the fixed guard post concept of security to a mobile police patrol and response. FPS contracts private security companies (eg. USProtect) to guard fixed posts.

DHS/ICE/GSA/FPS

Security Officers Keep Working After Checks Bounce

More than 100 security officers are out of an estimated $500,000 after USProtect, a company that provides security services for government facilities, issued checks that bounced. Source: NBC San Diego

A Comment:
Marc Mackie was USProtect's legal counsel.
Now he is with Paragon Systems!
WHAT?
So was Leslie Kaciban, Jr., CPA
OMG!
Sounds like DHS/GSA/FPS just lets these clowns play musical chairs from one Private Contractor circus to another.

Paragon Systems

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

by Oui on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 03:08:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

I'm reading the civil war and starting reconstruction.

not long ago I read Team of Rivals (which is brilliant and I highly recommend it), which inspired me to start re-reading Sandburg's Lincoln - the War Years. This isn't the best Lincoln bio though it may be the longest, but I own a copy, and it's interesting to compare the difference in time and in approach to biography. Sandburg (writing in the 1930s) has some turns of phrase that don't sit well today, and also seems to think private life is out of bounds - he has barely any mention of Mrs Lincoln or their sons.

besides Team of Rivals, anyone wanting a general history of the war between the states should see Battle Cry of Freedom by McPherson. I've read this more than once; read the covers off the paperback and bought hardcover.

So I decided I needed to know more about the postwar, and some googling told me that the best recent history of reconstruction is Reconstruction by Eric Foner. This is a heavy academic book that I've just started and I'm already wondering how many times the library will let me renew it.

The Four Horsemen of Bushism: War, Corruption, Hypocrisy and Greed

by esquimaux (esquimaux1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 12:26:41 AM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

"Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman
"Torture Team" by Philippe Sands and
""Brothers" by ??? I forget about JFK & RFK

by Chief on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 08:49:41 AM EST

Re: Open Thread (none / 0)

Brothers - by David Talbot. While he's got some good and important info in there, there's also some pretty well discredited stuff that he includes in his naivete as well. The whole sex angle is way out of proportion - see Jim DiEugenio's work on that area.

The best part of Brothers though is that it proves beyond reasonable doubt that Bobby Kennedy suspected the CIA had killed his brother, and was planning to expose that when he became President. Sadly, we all know how that turned out.

The best book I've ever read on the Kennedy administration and assassination both is Jim Douglass's book "JFK and the Unspeakable" - new book out from Orbus press. It's frankly eloquent, and spot on re the pressures Kennedy faced. I'll do a big write-up when I finish it - about halfway through and it's already fantastic.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 at 10:41:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Open Thread | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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