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FISA Thread II

by BooMan
Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 04:38:49 PM EST

Here's the cloture and final passage FISA votes. I'm laughing because Sen. Clinton voted correctly on both, while Obama broke his promise on the cloture vote and kept his promise on final passage. This was an easy way for Clinton to drive a further wedge between Obama and the base, but no one can blame her since she voted the way we wanted her to. Here are the Dems that voted the wrong way on final passage:

Baucus (D-MT), Bayh (D-IN), Carper (D-DE), Casey (D-PA), Conrad (D-ND), Feinstein (D-CA), Inouye (D-HI), Johnson (D-SD), Kohl (D-WI), Landrieu (D-LA), Lincoln (D-AR), McCaskill (D-MO), Mikulski (D-MD), Nelson (D-FL), Nelson (D-NE), Obama (D-IL), Pryor (D-AR), Rockefeller (D-WV), Salazar (D-CO), Webb (D-VA) Whitehouse (D-RI)

FISA Thread II | 32 comments (32 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: FISA Thread II (4.00 / 2)

But Clinton isn't the nominee, is she? Maybe I'm too cynical, but what do you think her vote would have been if she were?

by RollaMO on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 04:53:02 PM EST

Re: FISA Thread II (4.00 / 2)

Agreed. Look it's good that she voted for both, go Clinton! Yeah! But she doesn't have anything to lose by doing this.

Obama is still traitorous for voting for it and so are the rest of them.

by MNPundit on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She was free to do anything she wanted (none / 1)

for whatever reason.

And, you know, who cares?

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 0)

She voted Yea on the terrorist revolutionary guard(attack Iran now) con job when she was running. That should tell us something.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA Thread II (4.00 / 2)

In a particularly ill-timed call, one of Obama's telemarketers called me today to ask for my continued support. The conversation lasted about five seconds -- fund raising callers apparently have a hard time understanding, "No, not again. Typical politician" -- so I had to repeat it a few quick times before hanging up.

"Have you no sense of decency, sir. At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" -- Boston Attorney Joseph Welch, taking down Sen. Joseph McCarthy.

by BostonJoe on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:41:31 PM EST

I have gotten 2 calls (none / 0)

from the DCCC.

Of all actors in this little drama, I blame Pelosi and Hoyer the most. They control the calendar, they control the process by which bills are brought to the floor.

This bill did not have to be brought. There was no discharge petition. It was an unforced error.

So, when I have been called 2 times by the DCCC, I turned them down REALLY QUICKLY. I won't be giving to the DCCC this time around until Nov at least. Hoyer can work the tellcomms to replace my little contributions.

I hope that you will think of contributing to Obama after today.

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have gotten 2 calls (none / 1)

I'll think about it. Then I'll think he can ask his telco buddies to finance him. He's got my vote because McCain is crazy, but I won't give money to the lesser evil. This isn't a policy difference like coal vs wind power, or whether to raise FICA taxes or cut benefits. This is the CONSTITUTION. You know, that document he swore to uphold. I guess he had his fingers crossed when he took his oath of office.

by The Voice In The Wilderness on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 08:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have gotten 2 calls (none / 1)

I'm sending money to the ACLU rather than candidates.

by Heart of the Rockies on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 08:53:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Politically safe, very dissappointing (none / 0)

I am very dissappointed. As a constitutional lawyer, he just had to say, like Robert Byrd, he keeps the constitution in his pocket, and voted to save it.

I blame Hoyer most for this.

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 04:43:28 PM EST

I blame Harry Reid (4.00 / 4)

If Harry Reid had not used his power to substitute the Intelligence committee's bill for the Judiciary Committee's bill, none of this would have come up. By substituting the Intelligence Committee's bill, Reid put all this in motion, and today he voted against Cloture and against the bill, so he can fool everyone into thinking he did the right thing. But his telco buddies know better.

It is all too shameful for words.

Netroots favorites Webb and Obama voted for this disaster, would netroots know a better Democrat if they saw one?

by AliceDem on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I blame Harry Reid (none / 0)

"would netroots know a better Democrat if they saw one?"

Simple answer: No.

And good on Hillary Clinton. I absolutely LOVE that she voted the way she did, because A) it was the right vote, B) it's a finger in Obama's eye, and C) it's a finger in the eye of everyone who was fucking dumb enough to believe the hope-a-dope bullshit, and that includes me.

In fact, it's the kind of thing I would have done in her position. As for Hillary driving a wedge further between Obama and his base, Hope-a-Dope did that to himself. She had nothing to do with it: her vote simply pointed out what a fucking asshole he is.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 10:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politically safe, very dissappointing (none / 0)

I blame Hoyer and Pelosi. She could have wrangled the troops in the House if she had wanted to.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 04:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politically safe, very dissappointing (none / 1)

Totally depressing.

A Progressive Christian perspective on I/P at Beyond Bethlehem

by RustyPipes (rustdotypipesatyahoodotcom) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:12:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politically safe, very dissappointing (none / 0)

we waited 7 years to shake the neocons. It'll take a tad longer. This FISA Bill is unconstitutional and is headed to court upon Bush's signature. (a repost)

ACLU's statement:

Senate Passes Unconstitutional Spying Bill And Grants Sweeping Immunity To Phone Companies

ACLU Announces Legal Challenge To Follow President's Signature

"This fight is not over. We intend to challenge this bill as soon as President Bush signs it into law," said Jameel Jaffer, Director of the ACLU National Security Project. "The bill allows the warrantless and dragnet surveillance of Americans' international telephone and email communications. It plainly violates the Fourth Amendment."

the FISA Bill's weakest links:
[.]
The FISA Amendments Act nearly eviscerates oversight of government surveillance by allowing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) to review only general procedures for spying rather than individual warrants. The FISC will not be told any specifics about who will actually be wiretapped, thereby undercutting any meaningful role for the court and violating the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable search and seizure.
The bill further trivializes court review by authorizing the government to continue a surveillance program even after the government's general spying procedures are found insufficient or unconstitutional by the FISC. The government has the authority to wiretap through the entire appeals process, and then keep and use whatever information was gathered in the meantime. A provision touted as a major "concession" by proponents of the bill calls for investigations by the inspectors general of four agencies overseeing spying activities. But members of Congress who do not sit on the Judiciary or Intelligence committees will not be guaranteed access to the agencies' reports.
The bill essentially grants absolute retroactive immunity to telecommunication companies that facilitated the president's warrantless wiretapping program over the last seven years by ensuring the dismissal of court cases pending against those companies. The test for the companies' right to immunity is not whether the government certifications they acted on were actually legal - only whether they were issued. Because it is public knowledge that certifications were issued, all of the pending cases will be summarily dismissed. This means Americans may never learn the truth about what the companies and the government did with our private communications.

Bet on it being ruled unconstitutional.. This case will be heard during a Dem as president. Ya think Scalia, Alito, Thomas and Roberts are going to be comfortable reading this bill..Congress has made the judiciary irrelevant?

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 08:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 1)

To be fair, Clinton had nothing to lose and Obama had 'everything' to lose in terms of pleasing the establishment, the only vote he doesn't have in the bag.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes

by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 04:51:37 PM EST

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 0)

That's if "the establishment" means your average brainwashed and paranoid citizen. Its going to take a bit more time until the electorate is completely rational again. The administration has been scaring people for so long that they can even get away with warrantless wiretapping. Politicians are to scared to take a stand because half the country is tripping to Fox news. Its insane.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

FISA is done (none / 1)

We now need to return to the process of electing Obama, with his positive and negative qualities, and ensuring that McCain (who has no positive qualities that I am aware of) is not elected.

I feel pleased that this is over. It's really important that we all get over this. In politics, it's very important to remember the past, but not let it dominate us. We must move forward, and I will do so with Obama. I am hoping that others will do the same.

We will worry about FISA issues next on Nov 6, with an enhanced Democratic majority in the House, 61 Senators in the Senate, and Obama in the White House.

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:43:17 PM EST

Re: FISA is done (4.00 / 2)

Don't you ever get tired of that same ol' bullshit song?

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No (none / 1)

No,I'm a realist, not a whiner.

How about you?

Time to quit whining. What's done is done, and nothing can be done about it.

If Obama is elected, we may be able to investigate tellcomm misdeeds. If McSame is elected, game over.

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 1)

after they've already been given immunity... don't think so.

Join Soulforce-seeking Justice for God's GLBT children.

by its simple IF you ignore the complexity (simplecomplexity AT mac.com) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 1)

Realist? Amuse us some more. The reality is that Obama sold us out for nothing.

And please explain how Obama decides to investigate something he voted for? I mean, the reality is that there will be another election in 4 years, so we wouldn't want him to do anything the GOP might criticize, do we?

But once Dems have 100% of Congress and a Dem president-for-life, boy, we can change things then, yes we can.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll get the cheese (none / 1)

You've got the whine.

Who's got the crackers?

Where's that violin?

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll get the cheese (none / 0)

The violins are all rented out to sappy fanboys who can't face reality and so have nothing left but the Whine Cellar. Grow up.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:38:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll get the cheese (none / 0)

I'm with you DaveW. Obama can go fuck himself, and so can the rest of the democrats that voted for this turd of a bill.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 10:23:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 0)

"If Obama is elected, we may be able to investigate tellcomm misdeeds"

This isn't the statement of a realist, but that of an irrational optimist.

by Heart of the Rockies on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I plead guilty (none / 0)

Optimism is the only thing we've got left.

What is the alternative? Whining?

If you don't have a little optimism, why are you interested in politics?

by dataguy on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I plead guilty (none / 0)

You were the one who staked out the realist territory. And BTW, the antonym is not whiner but optimist.

by Heart of the Rockies on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 08:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 1)

but no one can blame her since she voted the way we wanted her to.

No one can blame her because she did exactly what she said she would do. Back in January when Dodd made an issue of this both Obama and Clinton promised to back a filibuster. Clinton kept her promise. She didn't keep her promise to make Obama look bad. Obama did that all by himself. Clinton kept her promise because that is what she does.

by AliceDem on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 05:57:10 PM EST

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 0)

Obama is keeping his promise to be bipartisan.

by Alexander on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Boycott Obama for a day (none / 0)

I was wondering who this guy works for lately.
Since the alternative is so bad, what if there were a grassroots event to boycott all donations for one day, say July 15 to show our disdain.

Boycotters could always make it up by donating on the 14th or 16th. Just not on the 15th.

Would it make a difference? no.

Would it send a message? hell yeah!
The message is that he works for "We the People"
He's forgotten that lately.

Just my personal opinion.

--Don't ask others to do, what you are unwilling to do yourself.

by B Rubble (surf_redondo at yahoo.com) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:28:37 PM EST

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 0)

You Dumbfuck. You know Hillary would have voted the same as Obama if she was the nominee.

We thank you for doing all you can to elect John McCain.

That will solve everything, now won't it.

God are you stupid.

Patriotism and religion, like whiskey, is best used in moderation. Mark Twain

by skeeters2525 on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 10:41:04 PM EST

Re: FISA Thread II (none / 0)

Apparently, Clinton voted for cloture, then Obama voted for cloture, then Clinton changed her vote to opposed. I haven't found the definitive source for that yet, but it's on some blogs. Clinton obviously knew well in advance how she was going to vote, so she didn't "change her mind". It looks like she punked Obama, like it was understood they would both vote for cloture, and then she betrayed presumably for some gain in political credibility. I don't understand the shaft over this issue though. Clearly the establishment is all major senses (party, media, mil/ind complex, corporate) is against her in this, and she's not going to get that much from the netroots over it, and the netroots can't deliver her anything major anyway. Anyone see the strategy here?

by bento on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 11:04:31 PM EST

FISA Thread II | 32 comments (32 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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