Booman Tribune ~ A Progressive Community

The Short List

by BooMan
Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 03:42:00 PM EST

Anyone want to discuss the strong and weak points of the people on the short list for vice-president? Right now the short list looks like:

Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine
Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius
New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson
Delaware Sen. Joe Biden
Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh

The Short List | 35 comments (35 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The Short List (4.00 / 2)

If I had to put them in order of preference:

Joe Biden - great attack dog, experience to complement Obama's "change" agenda. A Biden pick would get me fired up.
Tim Kaine - I know Open Left doesn't like him, but he seems like a good guy to me.
Bill Richardson - Doesn't always stay on message, but great experience.
Sebelius - Just can't see her being a great attack dog, and would probably lose in the VP debate.
Bayh - The guy is bland and Liebermanesque. I'd vomit in my mouth but still work my heart out for the ticket.

by existenz on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 05:03:31 PM EST

Re: The Short List (4.00 / 2)

Joe Biden, the great "expert" in foreign policy, thinks it is quite all right for the U.S. Congress to decide that Iraq should be divided into three geo-ethno-sectarian pieces. Setting aside the fact that the United States Congress nor anyone else has any right whatsoever to even entertain this kind of thing on behalf of Iraqis, anyone who has even the most basic knowledge of Iraq, its demography, social history, and society, knows that this is an outlandish and dangerous idea. So much for Biden's much-ballyhooed expertise.

Absolutely unacceptable.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (4.00 / 2)

I think it is interesting to see that Clark was left off the list.

I assume everyone dismissed him after his so called "gaffe" about McCain's POW experience not qualifying him to be POTUS.

I don't think he carries any of the baggage the others do on the list, and I think he immunizes Obama on a whole lot of issues. He's not afraid to speak his mind, either, so I think he could play the attack-dog role just fine.

Remember, always remember, nobody pays as much attention to this as we do. A great number of the voting public, will, on a selection of Clark, collectively grunt, "Soldier, good."

John O

by jonorato (jonorato42@yahoo.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 06:26:11 PM EST

Re: The Short List (4.00 / 2)

CONS: The all kinda suck or are a wash at best for the campaign. That's sort of freeing for Obama - he might as well do the right thing: pick the best person for the office.

PROS: Some of them are not yet known by most Americans,
so they won't be blamed for so much of the recent sucking.

IMHO Obama has been so cowed/distracted/obsessed by all this "He's gotta prove himself safe" BS, that if this is his short list, what change does he really bring?

I honestly don't think what America needs is bread and circuses or comfort. It really does need some scary wholesale changes, Obama came in promising that and is backing into the usual centrist crap all too quickly. Either he proves himself a bipartisan and picks a Repug, or proves himself an agent of REAL change and picks a REAL outsider or a REAL progressive.

Hill - would just look to calculated at this point.

Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine - best choice for the number crunchers who fear Obama's weakness with buzz-cut central Pennsylvanians and Ohioans. He's a power-seeking Jesuit Missionary lawyer. Guys like that freak me out.. they tend to have really creepy personal lives (this, I am sure, will also help in Ohio).

Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius is a "double legacy" elite, and the very thought pisses off Hillary freaks.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson - comes off like a teamster's union thug from Newark New Jersey, and I don't mean that in a good way. I think he's the best on the list once in office.

Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh - bad fit, supposedly a weak stumper. I think his weakness is something he can do nothing about: This is the face of change?

Delaware Sen. Joe Biden - won't have time to campaign properly as he's still eating his foot from his last campaign.

Viva Presidente Ezequiel - Aquí no hay quien viva!

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:29:31 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Kaine is working for it.

by BooMan on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 03:45:41 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

is it your view that Obama should name not just his VP but members of his cabinet to quiet concerns?

The following has some merit:

Democrats call on Obama to specify his plans
Jim Greer, the chairman of the Florida Republican Party, said, "I think Senator Obama is a motivational speaker, but at the end of the day I don't think that will translate into votes, and certainly not the image of strength that Ronald Reagan had."
He added, "Florida has not yet been locked down by either candidate, or all but won by either candidate."
In response, several Democrats said that choosing a seasoned party leader as his running mate would help Obama in the fall if he is unable to fully allay voters' uncertainty that a one-term senator is ready for the presidency.
"The one area he still needs credibility in is experience, and picking an Evan Bayh or a Joe Biden as vice president would help a lot with that," said John Breaux, a former Democratic senator from Louisiana, referring to two members of the Senate. "It wouldn't be bad if he came out early and said who his secretary of defense and secretary of state would be. That would address and stabilize the concerns about his experience."

Imho, Obama needs someone with business credentials - not foreign policy expertise. The focus will be on the economic pain. Big Oil is already working on taking down crude oil under $90/bbl a helping hand to McCain.

My two cents on your short list:

Richardson has some personal baggage that could blow up. {Sourced: Steve Clemons}

Biden - voted for the war not looking presidental.

Bayh. Not a good fit... even with his name, it could become a weapon -- buyh bye Obama.

Sebelius - will keep the the Clinton angst alive

Kaine - have no idea.

VP could be a dark horse

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 05:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Does anyone think Sam Nunn is in the running?

If so, what are his pros and cons?

by KlatooBaradaNikto (easwar7@aol.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

if Nunn is in the running, where is Al Gore? He does not appear as a speaker no where on the DNC agenda!

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jack Reed... (none / 0)

n/t

An untypical Negro

by blksista (gab1954@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 09:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Folks in Kansas seem to think it won't be Sebelius, either.

On the other hand how hard the right is attacking Richardson this week, his stock must be up.

Joe Biden is heading to Georgia for talks. That could go either way.

Evan Bayh is now on the list for speaking on Wednesday night, so his chances are now up...

Of course...the real speculation from the Village is on Hillary Plan 2012 anyway.

More at Zandar vs. The Stupid.

by Zandar1 on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 04:10:54 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

If Biden was critial of Russia for responding when Georgia massacred those citizens he's toast.

Well, I already didn't like him because of Iraq.

by Cee on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 05:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List: FWIW (none / 0)

Steve Clemons - he's well plugged in - just raised a post on the latest speculation in the Dem VP race:

It's not going to be

Bayh
Daschle
Clark
Reed

and doubtful are

Kaine

that leaves
Biden
Hagel
Sebelius
Warner could be a head fake for Kaine

And well, we could have a shocker

Clinton
Gore
Kerry

and as Steve Clemons stated we may know on Monday or Tuesday

now wouldn't that beat all, if it's Gore! who has gone invisible.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

the weak point is teh sherrod brown is not on that list.

-------- 2liberal

by 2liberal (erewhon@yahoo.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 04:14:40 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

what happened to daschle? l thought he was viable.

from that list l'd say ricahrdson...the western strategy boo...it's alive and well.

the revolution will not be televised...Peace

by dada on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 04:22:13 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Man, I hope it's Kaine. He's from Virginia, he has a feisty personality, and he's a white guy, which ought to balance the ticket with Obama (hate to say that, but that's a reality we have to deal with...)

by eagleye on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 04:28:18 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

None of the above. I'm beginning to think Obama needs an attack dog (or more propertly attack bitch, since the only person available for the role is Hillary). I almost gag when I write this, but there is some sense to it.

Knut

by Knut Wicksell (b_didnn@hotmail.ca) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 04:34:08 PM EST

If you want an attack dog... (4.00 / 3)

Then look at Joe Biden. He has more experience than McCain and knows how to deliver real zingers. He's the one who called "Bullshit" on Bush's Knesset speech, and said Guiliani's campaign was just "a noun, a verb, and 9/11". He'd be a fantastic VP attack dog.

by existenz on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 05:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you want an attack dog... (none / 1)

His only problem is that he also can be a verbal loose cannon. He is pretty much detested on this blog. But I'm with you. He has a lot of experience and a whole lot of passion.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you want an attack dog... (none / 0)

Not his only problem as far as I am concerned. His notion that the United States Congress has a right to decide on behalf of Iraqis that their country should be broken up into three geo-ethno-sectarian pieces shows a combination of hubris and ignorance of his subject that is unacceptable, particularly in someone who is supposedly a foreign policy "expert".

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you want an attack dog... (none / 0)

See my comment below.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:04:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Joe Biden went along with the Leslie Gelb plan to divide Iraq.

Hell no to him being VP.

by Cee on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 05:26:46 PM EST

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

In the end it will be divided anyway they have only been united since the 20's.

At the end of World War I, the League of Nations granted the area to the United Kingdom as a mandate. It initially formed two former Ottoman vilayets (regions): Baghdad, and Basra into a single country in August 1921. Five years later, in 1926, the northern vilayet of Mosul was added, forming the territorial boundaries of the modern Iraqi state.

The Kurds want out, the Sunnis want out except they would be left out of the oil revenue. Only the Shiites want unity since they will rule.

Don't be upset though I think Biden is going to be Secretary of State.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Salunga, I mean no disrespect to you, but you are merely regurgitating what has become by means of incessant repetition the received mythology about Iraq. With all respect you, along with the talking heads, and "experts" like Biden, don't know anything about Iraq's social and demographic history or its political history either pre or post-statehood and you are simply not qualified to make pronouncements such as the one above.

The fact that the area that comprises Iraq was once three Ottoman wilayat ("regions" or "governates") is meaningful only in understanding the Ottoman system of organizing its empire. It is not at all useful in understanding the demography, social structure, or the social or political interactions of the people who lived in those three wilayat. Nor is it useful in knowing abouyt their movement and migration from one wilaya to another. Unlike the impression you and most other Americans - including a gaggle of self-important talking heads and self-appointed "experts" seem to have, these were not three separate countries with three separate and distinct populations and strict geographical boundaries. Not at all. They were nothing more than administrative divisions devised by the Ottomans mainly for the purpose of tax collection, and irrespective of the populations involved. They were far less distinct as entities than the states of the United States, and far, far less important to the population. For example, people did not identify as being "from" one wilaya or another. People from the different wilayat traveled and migrated from one wilaya to another, intermixed, did business together, intermarried without any thought about it. And tribes certainly did not "belong" to one wilaya or another, but gave no regard to such boundaries (and while we are on the subject, are you aware that most Arab tribes in Iraq are not either Sunni or Shi`a, but contain members from both sects?).

As for the composition of the populations, the wilayat were in no way determined on any sort of ethnic or sectarian basis, and their populations were in no way distinct from one another ethnically or religiously. Nor did they "detest each other" as the myth goes. On the contrary.

As for the notion that the Sunnis "want out", or that even all the Kurds "want out", that is utter nonsense. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis across all ethnic and religious groups do not "want out". In fact, the majority do not even want a federal state. What the overwhelming majority of Iraqis want is for Iraq to remain one unified country with a strong central government. What the overwhelming majority do NOT want is 1) a sectarian state, 2) a divided state, 3) three states out of one. Unfortunately, they have not, so far, been given the right to decide these things for themselves, so all they can do is uselessly express their opinions when asked.

This whole notion of dividing Iraq into three parts is first of all an American construct based on a combination of hubris and ignorance, and second a goal held by a minority of Iraqi politicians who, oddly enough, have been boosted to power and are propped up by the American occupation. Interestingly, make-believe prime minister, Maliki, who was chosen by the Americans (and if you have forgotten that episode, I can fill you in), and his cabinet, who had to be approved by the Americans, are among the minority who are collaborationists and separatists. On the other hand, the parliament, the only body which was even remotely chosen by the Iraqi people, contains a majority of "nationalists" who oppose collaboration with the Americans, and also oppose separation.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:55:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Thanks for your in depth reply. I agree I am no expert in Iraqi history. But given a free and fair election you will look me in the eye and say the Kurds do not want a federation (Biden) or outright independence from Iraq? I think they would. The only thing that stops them is the occupier (US) under pressure from Turkey.
The majority of Iragis would vote to keep the country together ahh but the majority are Shiites who given the chance vote as a block along religious lines taking their queue not from Maliki the American puppet but from Sistani and Sadr. They would like to control the oil profits of all Iraq since they received crumbs from the Sunni controlled and vicious Saddam government.
I don't think it is a good idea to divide a country along religious lines. But Biden was only looking give the Iraqis what he thought they wanted which was a federation. It did not have to be permanent. He wanted to stop the killing.
Iraq will settle these questions on its own. We are going to end the illegal occupation and go home. Let us watch and see how unified the country stays and will the unity be at the point of a religious sword.

Again it is the Iraqi's decision. Let us ask the Kurds first.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 11:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Salunga, I don't have time right now to respond to each of your points. However, it appears that one of the errors you are making is conflating the desires and views of Iraqi people with the goals of a minority of Iraqi political figures. I will try to elaborate on that later if I have the time and am not too sleepy.

A couple of specifics: Sadr is an avid anti-collaborationist anti-separatist. He is generally called a "nationalist", which is not wrong, but does not fully express his position. He has been one of the strongest forces for maintaining Iraq as a unified state. In that regard he has reached out repeatedly for unity to various Sunni groups.

" I don't think it is a good idea to divide a country along religious lines."

One of the points missed utterly by most Americans, including Biden, is that you CAN'T divide Iraq along religious lines, although the sectarian and ethnic cleansing so nicely enabled by the Americans has made that a little less impossible than it was. Iraqis have NEVER been divided from one another along religious lines, and are still too intertwined by affiliation, intermarriage, etc. to make that doable without creating an even worse upheaval than we have seen so far.

"But Biden was only looking give the Iraqis what he thought they wanted which was a federation."

If Biden thought that was what Iraqis wanted, then he is even more abysmally ignorant and hubristic than I thought, and he must have carefully ignored all the polls and other indexes that show the exact opposite.

"It did not have to be permanent."

Once done it would have been virtually impossible to undo.

"He wanted to stop the killing."

Again, not a point in Biden's favour, but rather yet another indication of his ignorance and hubris. Trying to divide Iraqis along sectarian lines would not have stopped the killing, as many Iraqis and others who were actually paying attention, and who knew something about Iraq past and present warned.

"Iraq will settle these questions on its own."

The longer the U.S. stays and mucks things up, or keeps its fingers in the pot stirring, the harder that will be.

"We are going to end the illegal occupation and go home."

No you're not. Not in the foreseeable future. In case you haven't been paying attention, Obama does not intend to do more than reconfigure the occupation and keep it going indefinitely in its "new" form. As for McCain - got help the Iraqis and the world if he is elected, which is what I am increasingly convinced will happen. And if it DOES happen, screw the Americans for being stupid enough to elect him.

"Let us watch and see how unified the country stays and will the unity be at the point of a religious sword."

During more than 80 years as a secular, and unusually pluralistic state for the region, Iraq was very unified and Iraqis were known throughout the Arab world for their strong nationalism. They did not need a "religious sword" (which by the way sounds like yet another Muslim stereotype - I hope you didn't mean it that way) to hold them together. And even now they do not want the separation that has been forced on them by the American occupiers and their Iraqi proxies.

"Again it is the Iraqi's decision."

Really? It has not been their decision for the last five and half years. On the contrary, they have not been consulted at all, and their views and desires have been utterly ignored. When is it going to finally become their decision.

"Let us ask the Kurds first."

Why as the Kurds first? You want to give the most weight and the most say to a relatively small minority who are living under two brutal, corrupt warlords who arrest anyone who expresses a dissenting view, or even so much as displays an Iraqi flag (yes, Kurds living under the two mafiosi warlords have been put in prison for carrying or displaying the Iraqi flag, as recently happened to some Kurds when they were celebrating Iraq's victory in the Asia Cup)? So, just how free do you think people living in Kurdistan are to express their views?

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

PS Something I meant to mention before about this myth of the three wilayat that were grouped together to create the modern-day state of Iraq. Those wilayat were not created by the people of the region based on any sort of natural demographic, social, or geographic criteria, but by the ruling empire for its own administrative purposes. In other words, they were artificial divisions created by an outside power, not natural boundaries that grew out of natural divisions, or by any kind of decision on the part of the inhabitants. As I have said, their importance to the people who lived in Iraq (and that IS one of the names the region was known by) is enormously exaggerated by those who wish to promote the notion that Iraq is an artificial, inherently non-viable entity.

by Hurria (Muslawia@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:39:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

You win. I never supported the war and through ignorance hoped the Biden plan was a way out. I do agree the current divisions were not in place before the US attack.
Biden will still make a good attack dog something Obama needs. McCain is worse far worse. We are broke and our empire will recede no matter who wins this election. So take heart. Have a good day.

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; now we know that it is bad economics;" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

by Salunga on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 08:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 0)

Salunga,

Then it would be for the Iraqi citizens to decide.

Not Joe Biden.

by Cee on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List (none / 1)

Please inform me how you know that is indeed the short list. I suspect that those who know aren't telling, and those who are telling this don't know.

A big factor is going to be the personal chemistry between Obama and the VP nominee. And no one knows who fits that bill.

50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

by TarheelDem (editor@thepartielion.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 05:41:51 PM EST

The Short List sucks (none / 0)

The VP shouldn't outshine the Presidential candidate, but neither should he be a total snoozer. Obama needs a young dynamic aggressive candidate. I don't know anybody who fits that bill because all elected Democrats have no cojones, including Obama. I'm surprised Jesse thought he could find them to cut off. But Obama does have charisma, which makes up for a multitude of sins. He needs someone like Howard Dean to punch the Republicans repeatedly and at all opportunities. Isn't there ANYONE from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party?

by The Voice In The Wilderness on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 07:04:00 PM EST

Re: The Short List sucks (4.00 / 2)

all good points.

it's looking more likely that McCain may win this election. I wouldn't be surprised.

The media and public only understands pandering and 3 word sound bites no matter how dire the issues. The system is a total failure.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 07:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List sucks (none / 1)

Well, then, why not Howard Dean instead of someone like him?

by Joyful Alternative on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 09:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Short List sucks (none / 0)

It believe that he is committed to the DNC.

BTW, posted this yesterday, but it got lost somehow.

by The Voice In The Wilderness on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 06:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore (none / 0)

Convention surprise. He gets to make up for past failings. Also settles scores with Bush and the Clintons. Solves a lot of problems this year for Obama instantly, gets to run himself in 8 years, can then get credit for helping to save the planet.

by Fighting Bill on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:38:18 PM EST

Re: Gore (none / 0)

Don't forget a potential 16-year presence to approach this whole climate change thing with a long term view and STICK TO IT. That's one of our system's serious flaws. Real problems get solved with real answers, most of which involve a long term commitment and consistent execution. The usual short-term vs long-term jazz.

Downside: If he can't keep his consumption a little less conspicuous, his health might not keep for 16 more years. Kidding aside, it WILL be a problem if a fat man living in a mansion and jetting all over the world tells us to tighten our belts. He has some personal devils to (re-)exorcise publicly to be the kind of advocate people think he would be from the VP perch. Remember the bulk of people haven't been watching him that closely or at all.

[ASIDE: The idea that you can just pay a bill to offset your carbon footprint is the hight of elitist folly, given the austerity that a real solution will require and the fact that the whole carbon trading scheme is really just a big payoff to the world's largest polluters and a plenary-indulgence-in-green-clothing system for the wealthy (at least so far..). If Gore comes aboard, it's got to be because he has a plan that isn't based on subsidies for corn OR sugar farmers OR an over dependence on 'Polluter-Side' Environmentalism. Hate to say it, but T. Boone Pickens is scoring more points lately on the issue than probably anyone short of Paris Hilton's you-tube rejoinder to McCain's 'Celebrity' ad.]

Viva Presidente Ezequiel - Aquí no hay quien viva!

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:38:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Short List | 35 comments (35 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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