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Not Buying the Spin

by BooMan
Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 12:57:21 PM EST

I'm not particularly impressed by Kos's defense of his anti-Caroline jihad. While I acknowledge that he doesn't bear any responsibility for the selection of Kirsten Gillibrand and that he doesn't have any special influence over Governor Paterson or New York state politics, the vehement opposition to the liberal Caroline Kennedy from the progressive blogosphere effectively cut off an important bloc of support for her candidacy. As I stated at the beginning, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that we should not reinforce a system of dynastic power in our government. Ultimately, however, it came down to a decision of who to support between Kennedy, another dynastic pick in Andrew Cuomo, and Blue Dog Hillary-clone Kirsten Gillibrand. Given those choices, I strongly preferred Kennedy. I would have been happy with some other picks, especially Jerry Nadler, but Kennedy was the most reliably liberal of the major contenders and that is why I supported her.

Kos defends his decision to wage jihad by saying that there is no harm done. Either Gillibrand will lurch to the left and we'll have nothing to worry about, he says, or she'll get beaten in a competitive primary. This is disingenuous. Gillibrand just won reelection in the most expensive House race in the country. She is an incredible fundraiser and has support from the Establishment (political and financial). It will be very difficult to defeat Gillibrand in a primary. And this is true whether or not she lurches to the left as a U.S. Senator.

A simple way of demonstrating the strained reasoning here is to ask whether Kos would support Caroline Kennedy in a 2010 primary against Kirsten Gillibrand. If the answer is yes, then it was a mistake to oppose Kennedy's appointment. And if the answer is no, then it doesn't seem to matter how Gillibrand votes, only that she isn't the daughter of a former president.

Again, it might not have been decisive but the lack of liberal support for the liberal candidate wasn't helpful and may have played into the overall narrative that undermined Kennedy's chances. The one upside is that a marker was laid down in opposition to dynastic politics, regardless of ideology. That's good. On the other hand, having a Blue Dog as senator from New York cannot be spun as a win-win situation. It's a plain and simple disappointment.

Not Buying the Spin | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Not Buying the Spin (4.00 / 2)

We don't know for sure that Kennedy was out of the running when she withdrew, do we? That might be a reasonable surmise, but shouldn't be treated as a fact.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:06:39 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (4.00 / 3)

I didn't have an opinion on the whole thing, but, really, Kos is embarrassing to read in that post.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to you country.

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:10:34 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (4.00 / 4)

I read it, too. And I don't like Kos saying that it was a win-win situation. A pronounced Blue Dog Democrat and NRA supporter? Please, let's get real. This is a victory for the Hillaryites.

I also read that Schumer (D-Wall St.) wanted Gillibrand, too. Never underestimate that guy or his pull. He wanted company, not someone he would have to clash with on policy. You know how kissy he is with Lieberman.

Paterson is an idiot. He thinks he's trying to shore up his popularity for when he runs in his own right in 2010. Not. Gonna. Happen. He's ended up ticking off liberal Dems, Obama (who wanted Caroline), and people like Andrew Cuomo and Al Sharpton. Especially for letting it leak out via the New York Times that he felt Caroline Kennedy was unfit (via RAW Story last night). Unfit can be ascribed to someone like Sarah Palin, not Caroline Kennedy. Inexperienced can be one word to describe Caroline, but wasn't it only a while ago that the same could be said about Hillary Clinton in 2000?

New York is gonna be a free-for-all come next year.

An untypical Negro

http://thisblksistaspage.wordpress.com

by blksista (gab1954@gmail.com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:18:34 PM EST

A few problems (4.00 / 3)

I don't ever remember being told that there were only three choices: Cuomo, Kennedy and Gillibrand. Plenty of other names were in the mix, from Nadler and Israel to Nydia Velasquez to Carolyn Maloney.

I was pulling for Carolyn Maloney, although her record is only slightly more progressive than Gillibrand (who is herself the 6th most liberal Blue Dog, with an 88% score from Progressive Punch.

That said, there are two key beliefs. One is that NY should have a very progressive senator. Two, that NY's senator should be someone who is experienced and capable when it comes to politics.

Caroline may have been very progressive (although her dalliances with Bloomberg are troubling), but she obviously wasn't ready for the rough and tumble of politics. She could have had the seat on a silver platter, even two days ago, but instead she basically chickened out. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Despite all of the pushback from liberal blogs, Caroline still could have become senator. It's her fault solely that she withdrew from the running, and it's her fault that her public debut was such a disaster.

by existenz on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 02:17:10 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (4.00 / 3)

I live in Gillibrand's district, and what pisses me off most about this whole affair is the fact that conventional wisdom dictated that a pool of acceptable candidates be formed, all of whom have some connection to the existing political hierarchy. How about choosing an educator, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or a citizen activist from outside the political arena? A real citizen, not a professional poitician. I think that's what the Founding Dudes had in mind when they invented our democracy.

by eagleye on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 03:04:07 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

Yeah, "qualified" somehow became synonymous with previous elected office experience. But how many Senators did not hold elected office before becoming Senators? I could name a few right off the top of my head.

by liberaljournal on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 03:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (4.00 / 2)

"Kennedy was the most reliably liberal of the major contenders"

I don't see much evidence to back up that claim. That's the problem I have with Kennedy; the complete emptiness of her resume. She has no record to either praise or criticize.

The Four Horsemen of Bushism: War, Corruption, Hypocrisy and Greed

by esquimaux (esquimaux1 at gmail dot com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 03:07:42 PM EST

I thought it was interesting that (none / 1)

Gillibrand ... voted last year against the $700 billion Wall Street bailout bill.

by martini on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:10:50 PM EST

Re: I thought it was interesting that (none / 0)

Hey, she's got huevos at least. I personally think the package was a disaster in it's form, but it's timing was critical. It was a very expensive 'message' to the markets. Luckily, both Bush and Obama have made themselves some wiggle room in order to re-apply the TARP funds for better, or at least more refined purposes.

I still don't think it's been long enough to know whether to get on anyone's case for voting against or abstaining.

Declaring the bottom is the only way back up..

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

you have supported blue dogs before

casey, patrick....

why do you seem to have a problem with blue dogs that are women?

or associated with a woman ala clinton?

hillenbrand set out some policy stands today that make her a little further to the left than the usual blue dog...in fact id call her more a teal dog.

kennedy had a seriously progressive platform and im sorry to lose her....im willing to wait and see but i suspect hillenbrand will have a very similiar platform to kennedy's.......and it will end up being a hell of a lot more progressive than casey's, ...who right now is one of the most powerful senators on cap hill because of his very close friendship with the president.

by anna in philly (flymetothemoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:13:59 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 1)

You've got a lot of gall to say that I supported Casey. The extent of my support for Casey was to vote for him against Santorum after railing against his candidacy for a year. I never told a soul that they should vote for Casey and never gave anyone one word of criticism if they refused to do so.

I supported Murphy and was surprised when he chose to join the Blue Dog caucus. I still very much like Murphy and consider him a friend. I was very disappointed by his vote on FISA, but I have been satisfied with his voting record in general.

You raise the fact that Gillibrand is a woman. Last I checked, Caroline Kennedy is also a woman.

by BooMan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

oooh, good question anna!
and good points about casey too. Is he pro gay marriage, like hillenbrand has announced? Me no think so...he's all about the separate but equal "domestic partnership" scheme.

Does she oppose stem-cell research like bob casey? no, she supports it. And unlike Boob, she's also pro-choice.

Booman, I'd be interested to see your recommendations for PA voters from 2006.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (4.00 / 2)

Oh please.

Here's a samplefrom 2006.

Democrats have also learned, through the exemplary examples of Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman, that letting every camel inside the tent can be a frustrating and dangerous exercise. Bob Casey Jr. is likely to be an unwelcome voice not just on the issue of reproductive choice, but also on stem-cell research, judicial appointments, the war in Iraq, and gay rights. It is very likely that Bob Casey Jr. will promptly supplant Lieberman as Bush's favorite Democrat.
That is, he will likely do that if he wins. And if he wins it may send a message to Chuck Schumer that he should recruit more anti-woman, anti-science, anti-peace, anti-gay candidates. Both parties are taking a close look at this race...
...I don't know whether Casey will succeed in attracting 'traditional blue-collar voters in Western Pennsylvania'. I am sure he will do better there than a truly progressive candidate would. But the real key is for Casey to pick up the votes of the disaffected voters in suburban Philadelphia. These voters are primarily motivated to vote against Santorum over his Alabamanesque positions on social issues. They will not be excited to discover Santorum's opponent shares his views on choice, science, and gays. Fortunately, the Governor's race will be on the ballot as well, and that may entice suburban voters (who generally love Rendell) to the polls, where they may cast an anti-Santorum vote.
It's a tragic race for those of us that live in Pennsylvania and would like nothing more than to go to war against Rick 'Man on Dog' Santorum. For now we are focused on sending a message in the Democratic primary by voting for either Chuck Pennacchio or Alan Sandals. They are both progressive on the issues, and they were willing to run on a progressive platform even after the Governor and Schumer asked more prominent Democrats to drop out of the race.

by BooMan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 1)

Yah, the Boo was on target with Casey from day 1. He's was Shum-tool and that sucks. But, he was our tool and better yet, not Santorum. Hardly a strong backing. Other than that it was hold your nose and vote time.

Boo knows a few things and certainly his local politics is one of em!

I still call it Pennsyltucky (ever hear of salting roads?!?), but at least there are no more man-dog quips from PA Senators. At least not public ones.

Declaring the bottom is the only way back up..

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

...adding that upon reading your comment above that i recall you were a reluctant casey supporter, and only because santorum was such a penisface.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 1)

I wasn't a reluctant supporter. I was a vehement opponent. Shrill, even.

I just could not pass up a chance to vote against Santorum and contribute a fraction of a percent to his humiliation.

by BooMan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:31:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

yeah, i was just reading some archived comments. not as shrill as albert yee though. he sounds like me.

still i am going to wait and see on gillebrand or whatever her name is. we'll see if she's really a blue dog conservative or if she was just representing her district, a claim you've used in the past to defend pat murphy's votes on iraq and fisa.

i wish someone would find a live boy to plant in boob casey's bedroom.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

yeah, I would have written even more shrill stuff except jpol and albert were doing most of that work on the front-page and there was a limit to how much Casey-bashing could go on on a nationally focused blog.

by BooMan on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:46:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

I'm not from New York. I don't try to tell New Yorkers how to conduct their business.

What this should point New York progressives towards is efforts to conduct a 62-county strategy for getting more progressive support in upstate New York.

How much of a Blue Dog Gillibrand will turn out to be in the US Senate is as yet unknown. I suspect that she will fit in with folks like Claire McCaskill more than with folks like Mary Landrieu.

And given last year's Supreme Court decision, "gun rights" have lost salience as an issue for the moment.

I'm willing to wait and see. Oftentimes process is more important than policy if the process honestly reflects the views of voters.

The major changes that Obama has already made have been in political process more than policy, although those policy changes are beginning to be implemented.

50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:32:46 PM EST

Guns, baby, guns (none / 0)

I'm afraid the idea of federal gun regulation is kinda dead for a while. Even if they didn't go out and buy a bunch of guns, I think a lot of liberals learned the real reason for the right to bear arms over the past 8 years and became soft on the issue because of it. That reason being the right to defend yourself against your own government when it goes fucking loco.

If only the courts would let cities decide their own regulations..

Declaring the bottom is the only way back up..

by anarchronarchist (mincers (-at-) hotmail (-dot-) com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:54:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

See, I just don't understand this foot shooting at all. One, I think Kos is taking waaaaaaaaaay too much credit for Kennedy (she did herself in, people) and two, Gillibrand is a Blue Dog, period.

Even Cuomo would have been a better choice.

More at Zandar vs. The Stupid.

by Zandar1 on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 02:20:22 PM EST

Funny... (none / 0)

Look at the first article under "Headlines Around the Web" (center column):

"Little people are very stuff-intensive."

by CabinGirl on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 02:22:30 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

I agree, attempting to put a positive spin on Gillibrand's appointment is not one of kos' best moments. Unfortunately, it's posts like this that give rise to allegations that he is part of the party machinery, and that he is pushing a designated agenda.

Oh, there you are, Perry. -Phineas -SLB-

by boran2 (blogistan@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 03:22:18 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 1)

Kos and Hamsher blast Caroline for being a Kennedy and a "princess." They helped fuel the narrative against her while the New York media piled on. Caroline made bad choices on trusting Bloomberg's goons and her paid media advisers sucked. Although, any slip ups by Caroline fit into the narrative already pushed by ideological allies and loved to be pushed by enemies and a tabloid media.

They went after Caroline for being a Kennedy, which I thought was a strength in Democratic circles, and blamed the whole history of family political things on her. So now being a part of a political family is a bad thing? I do not remember any huffing and puffing after the whole Biden place holder appointment for his son.

Next, they kept railing on Caroline for not being elected and being appointed when someone was going to have to be appointed Senator. They applied that somehow it is her fault that Governor's appoint senate replacements. Would anyone in the netroots world haved attacked Valeria Jarret if she was picked as Obama's replacement?

Her strengths were never mentioned at all in the media and hardly by any prominent progressive bloggers. She was an early Obama supporter, helped select VP Biden and her books are well thought out. She is highly intelligent with a proven passion and record for educational reform. Her wealthy background would make her less beholden to corporations like so many DLC types that litter the Senate. She would be a formidable candidate in 2010 and 2012 in a very blue state.

Instead, it was nonstop bashing of Caroline and highlight all of her negatives.

I do believe there was some sexism involved because I highly doubt JFK Jr. would have received the same treatment in similar circumstances.

My biggest problem with Kos and Hamsher is that they want all this credit for the netroots movement, deservedly so in some cases, when things go right but never any blame for when things go wrong. "Look at we did, YAAA! we have influence!" or "Oh, do you think I called Patterson personally? Come on, Gillendbrand will come around" Huh?

I thought Kos wanted to rid Congress of Blue Dog Dems and they were the worst type but now he justifies one?

The bottom line is they bashed a progressive and the final outcome led to a Blue Dog Senator. This is epic fail and I wish they would just own up to the terrible ending for progressives.

The New Gun Nut Senator has ties to a crooked pol.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/01/a_remarkably_un.php

Gillibrand was against immigrants having licenses.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/new-senator-new-york-her-own-words

PUMA's are taking credit for Caroline not getting the seat.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/ny-sen-you-break-it-you-buy-it

It is all cool because Caroline said like too many times in one interview.

Blue Tidal Wave

by Mac G on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 05:38:56 PM EST

W (none / 0)

So now being a part of a political family is a bad thing?

Yep.

The Underground Railroad

by Oscar In Louisville on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 06:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

I think Patterson is just ideologically inclined to pick Gilibrand.

He is a really conservative dem himself.

Stray Roots Message Board,Thus far unmoderated! Dameocrat Blog

by StrayRoots (dameocrat@STUFFTOREMOVEpeacemail.com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 07:53:20 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 1)

And Patterson is governor of New York because Eliot Spitzer was pursued by the FBI using terror and drug laws to nail him for spending his money on a call girl.

After another eight years of Bush I'm not particularly for pushing someone because they're part of a rich, famous family. Then again I don't generally support comedy writers for higher office, but I'll take Franken over Coleman. C. Kennedy's politics were pretty damned good. She wasn't a political animal and because of that she might not have been a good candidate in two years.

As far as Gillibrand and guns, meh. I liked how John Edwards explained it way back when he was viable. I haven't touched a gun since I left the service in 1973. Don't like 'em. They kill people. There are a lot of wingnuts who keep making this an issue, but bottom line is there are hundreds of millions of guns in the U.S. and no one's going to collect them all and make this Great Britain.

I don't know anything about Gillibrand more than what's in the news today, but I already trust her more than Schumer.

by Bob In Pacifica on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 10:33:10 PM EST

Re: Not Buying the Spin (none / 0)

What is with this TORTURED reasoning Boo?

A simple way of demonstrating the strained reasoning here is to ask whether Kos would support Caroline Kennedy in a 2010 primary against Kirsten Gillibrand. If the answer is yes, then it was a mistake to oppose Kennedy's appointment. And if the answer is no, then it doesn't seem to matter how Gillibrand votes, only that she isn't the daughter of a former president.

You fail logic 101!

Unlike you I took the time to read posts from people more familiar with Gillibrand and live in her near blood red district. One posted some of her ratings....

Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform -- 5

ACLU -- 100

The Club for Growth -- 2

National Education Association -- A

Christian Coalition -- 8

League of Conservation Voters -- 95

James Dobson's Family Research Council -- 5

AFL-CIO -- 96

Drum Major Institute for Public Policy -- A

Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America -- A

National Organization for Women -- 100.

Another posted, and I suggest that the whole diary be read....
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/23/7820/40076/616/687903

I was pissed, and she was coming to my neighborhood, and she was going to get an earful.
Apparently, I was not the only one. About two hundred people showed up at a meeting that was ostensibly to discuss rolling back NCLB. But when folks got up to speak at the mike, NCLB was left on the virtual chalkboard.
I was one of the first to speak, and I came armed with all of my facts and information. I angrily spoke for almost ten minutes, with stops for burst of applause and yelling at the Congresswoman from the crowd. It was not a pretty night, and you could see the aides beginning to look a bit nervous.
At last, I simply asked with frustration and despair, "You were sent to Congress to end the war in Iraq. How could you?"
She didn't duck the question. She didn't double speak. She took a deep breath, and when she spoke, she spoke with something very rare to find in politics nowadays--she spoke the truth from her heart. It had been so long since I had heard a politican do that, let alone on such a volatile issue, I almost didn't recognize it when I heard it, but there it was. Her voice, though soft, was resonant with conviction and emotion.

From my reading it seems those progressives that know Gillibrand, respect and support her even though they don't always agree with her.

by smkngman3 on Sat Jan 24th, 2009 at 01:16:58 PM EST

There's plenty I've disagreed with kos on (none / 0)

over the years, but he usually makes a decent case for his position whether I agree or not. I simply don't understand his vitriol with regard to Kennedy.

My guess, and it is of course only a guess, is that Caroline sought the seat at the behest of her uncle, who unfortunately may not be in the Senate for as long as he (and we) had hoped. I wish him many more years, but I think he is looking ahead to the possibility that he may not be around to see his life's work through. I think he wanted someone he could count on to carry his torch, and to my mind that's not the worst reason in the world for Caroline to have gotten the seat. We owe Teddy an awful lot.

poe

by poe on Sat Jan 24th, 2009 at 03:18:09 PM EST

Not Buying the Spin | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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