Booman Tribune

Serious Question

by BooMan
Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 11:29:00 AM EST

I am not an expert on land mines or in protecting military installations and bases, but it seems odd to me that we would stop production of anti-personnel mines in 1997, eschew their use since 1991, and yet refuse to sign the treaty that bans them. I understand that all the other major military powers are also refusing to sign, even though the treaty has been endorsed by 156 countries. So, I'm not making some sweeping condemnatory judgment about this decision. But if we're not producing them and we're not using them, then why take the public relations hit by not signing the treaty?

I guess I'm missing something.



Display:
God forbid we should look like some kind of peacenik, socialistic nation rather than the gladiatorial collosus we want the world to fear and obey.

I see that now on CNN "the left" has become antiwar instead of pro-healthcare.  The show goes on.

by Alice on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:04:37 PM EST
CNN has gone to shit ever since Ted Turner sold it to Time-Warner
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 01:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is because of our artillery, bombs, missiles, that turn into cluster munitions.  The residual "bomb-lets" that are "duds" are famous for taking limbs off children who find them long after there use.  
by BillE on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:05:45 PM EST
are cluster bomblets covered under the treaty?
by BooMan on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:23:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
are cluster bomblets covered under the treaty?

Nope. See separate comment.

by ask on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are two treaties to keep track of:

1. Mine Ban Treaty
Covers anti-personnel mines only, not "anti-tank" mines. There are 156 nations that are party to this treaty, 39 that are not. Established in Ottawa in 1997.

The Mine Ban Treaty is the international agreement that bans antipersonnel landmines. Sometimes referred to as the Ottawa Convention, it is officially titled: the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on Their Destruction.

The treaty is the most comprehensive international instrument for ridding the world of the scourge of mines. When they join the Mine Ban Treaty, states commit to:
never use antipersonnel mines, nor to "develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer" them;
destroy mines in their stockpiles within four years of the treaty becoming binding;
clear mines in their territory, or support efforts to clear mines in mined countries, within 10 years;
in mine-affected countries, conduct mine risk education and ensure that mine survivors, their families and communities receive comprehensive assistance;
offer assistance to other States Parties, for example in providing for survivors or contributing to clearance programmes;
adopt national implementation measures (such as national legislation) in order to ensure that the terms of the treaty are upheld in their territory.

Eighty percent of the world's states are party to the treaty.

2. Convention on Cluster Munitions

A result of the so-called Oslo process, concluded in 2008. There are currently 103 countries that are party to ther convention, 92 that are not.

The Convention on Cluster Munitions is the international agreement that bans cluster munitions. When they join the Convention on Cluster Munitions, states commit to:
never use cluster munitions, nor to "develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer" them;
destroy cluster munitions in their stockpiles within eight years of the convention becoming binding;
clear and destroy cluster munitions remnants in their territory, or support efforts to clear cluster munitions remnants in affected countries, within 10 years;
in affected countries, ensure that survivors, their families and communities receive comprehensive assistance;
offer financial or technical assistance to other States Parties, for example in providing assistance to survivors or contributing to clearance programmes;
adopt national implementation measures (such as national legislation) in order to ensure that the terms of the convention are upheld in their territory;
reporting regularly on all of these activities.

Treaty Basics

Convention Basics

by ask on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:39:20 PM EST
eschew their use since 1991,

It is possible that no additional land mines have been deployed/placed since 1991, but afaik, the Korea DMZ is still full of them - on both sides.

by ask on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:45:32 PM EST
That is true.  The article says we having "used" them since 1991, which I take to mean that we haven't utilized them in any conflict since the Persian Gulf War.  
by BooMan on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the definitions in the Mine Ban Treaty that you linked, I think it leaves it open to interpretation if one of our unexploded artillery, missile or other device (currently being used in Iraq and Afghanistan) would be considered an anti-personnel device.  No pun intended but what a clusterf### this whole thing is.  Why don't they just narrow the definition to exclude our current arsenal of crap we use so that at least we support the ban on what it was originally intended to ban?

Article 2
Definitions

  1. "Anti-personnel mine" means a mine designed to be exploded by the presence, proximity or contact of a person and that will incapacitate, injure or kill one or more persons. Mines designed to be detonated by the presence, proximity or contact of a vehicle as opposed to a person, that are equipped with anti-handling devices, are not considered anti-personnel mines as a result of being so equipped.

  2. "Mine" means a munition designed to be placed under, on or near the ground or other surface area and to be exploded by the presence, proximity or contact of a person or a vehicle.

  3. "Anti-handling device" means a device intended to protect a mine and which is part of, linked to, attached to or placed under the mine and which activates when an attempt is made to tamper with or otherwise intentionally disturb the mine.

  4. "Transfer" involves, in addition to the physical movement of anti-personnel mines into or from national territory, the transfer of title to and control over the mines, but does not involve the transfer of territory containing emplaced anti-personnel mines.

  5. "Mined area" means an area which is dangerous due to the presence or suspected presence of mines.
by forus50 on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 12:41:15 PM EST
UXO (Un-exploded Ordnance) is an entirely different story. It is simply unrealistic to expect any acceptance to ban artillery shells, grenades or 'improvised devices'. The treaty was narrowed down to anti-personnel mines only as a compromise to have as many signatories as possible - the bigger 'anti-tank' mines (which conceivably may be triggered by persons anyway) were excluded.

Yours truly took these images in a recent battle area in southern Sudan a few years ago:

UXO:

Then we - unexpectedly - found a trip-wire AP mine and bid a hasty retreat:

Dry surroundings

by ask on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 01:09:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ask,
Thank you for the information and for posting those photos from Sudan.  However, now I'm back to not understanding  why the US doesn't sign it.(?)
by forus50 on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 01:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - why the US doesn't sign it.(?) - beats me as well.

The US remains the only member of NATO besides Turkey, and the only state in the Western Hemisphere besides Cuba, not to sign the Mine Ban Treaty. The US used anti-personnel land mines in the first Gulf War, and claims that land mines are essential to protect US soldiers in heavily armed places like the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea.

The list of non-signatories include many of the usual suspects when it comes to armed conflict and I guess they will not give up any of their means to destroy and maim the 'enemy'.

by ask on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 01:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jobs, jobs jobs. All of 17,000 of them at ATK.  Or is it Money, money, money.

Boycott, divest, sanction.

by Alice on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 02:38:23 PM EST
We might need them someday is the position.

________
The Raptor of Spain: A Webserial
From Muslim Prince to Christian King (Updated Nov. 24)
by MNPundit on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 03:05:18 PM EST
Here's my reading of this.  It takes a 2/3 majority in the Senate to approve a treaty.

Count the noses.  How many votes to you see for "giving up American sovereignty" when it comes to land mines?

Thought so.

So why bother, with so much else on the plate?

I'm really more interested in seeing the existing land mines and anti-personnel cluster weapons cleaned up quickly from the places where they have already been deployed.

And then wait until some sanity returns to Congress.  I'm hoping that wait is not long.

50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

by TarheelDem on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 at 03:43:17 PM EST


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