Booman Tribune

Did We Mutilate Prisoners?

by BooMan
Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 03:41:59 PM EST

Why do I agree with Judiciary Committee chairman Patrick Leahy when he says we should create a new Church Committee or South Africa-style Truth and Reconciliation Commission to examine the crimes of the Bush administration? This is why.

But The Daily Telegraph reported over the weekend that the documents actually “contained details of how British intelligence officers supplied information to [Mohamed’s] captors and contributed questions while he was brutally tortured.” In fact, it was British officials, not the Americans, who pressured Foreign Secretary David Miliband “to do nothing that would leave serving MI6 officers open to prosecution.” According to the Telegraph’s sources, the documents describe particularly gruesome interrogation tactics:

The 25 lines edited out of the court papers contained details of how Mr Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, “is very far down the list of things they did,” the official said.

Another source familiar with the case said: “British intelligence officers knew about the torture and didn’t do anything about it.”

“It is very clear who stands to be embarrassed by this and who is being protected by this secrecy. It is not the Americans, it is Labour ministers,” former shadow home secretary David Davis said. But one unnamed U.S. House Judiciary Committee member told the Telegraph that if President Obama “doesn’t act we could hold a hearing or write to subpoena the documents. We need to know what’s in those documents.”

Consider the following, do you agree with the bolded section?

David Davis, the former shadow home secretary who first highlighted the case, said: "What has become clear is that the information being held back is not protecting the American government who have made a clean breast of their involvement in torture, but the British government, where at least two cabinet ministers have denied any complicity whatsoever.

From the British perspective, I understand why they are upset with their government for trying to hide under Dick Cheney's skirt, but when in the hell did the American government make 'a clean breast of their involvement' in mutilating our prisoners' genitals with scalpels? Do you recall when that happened? I don't recall that.

If that happened, and I desperately want to believe that it did not, then I want Bush and Cheney in prison. Either way, we need to know.



Display:
Hell yes prisoners were mutilated, physically, psychologically, mentally, but more than that, they were murdered.
Murdered by multiple small cuts, genitally mutilated by many cuts, is not material to the argument on whether they should be in jail or not, but after being in jail for such a time that they then should be put to death.
I believe that is the legal penalty for their crimes, under the law.
You wouldn`t want to break the law, now.
On the practical side, I prefer to not even debate the question of truth commission or the "let`s move forward crowd", which are tied up in politics. I want the man in charge legally, to be shown the law, shown where it says he MUST act, & proceed with his investigation & if any, prosecutions, & if it goes to convictions, the proper & legal sentences to the fullest extent of the law. Semantics, politics & preferences have no place in this discussion. I don`t like setting the bar higher & higher that now it`s up to scrotum slicing.
There really is nothing to discuss about prosecutions, since they both admitted being involved.
There will be no "truth & reconciliation" until the the whole truth comes out & the country reconciles with the hanging of a past president, a past vice president (who btw, is still delusional about the "past" part), & any others involved in the deaths of any of these renditioned, tortured, ball bounced, frozen, sleep deprived, non combatant combatants, gitmo-ized human beings.
That`s the law, isn`t it??!!

The difference between theists and atheists is that the atheists don't set the theists on fire for refusing to agree with them.
by KNUCKLEHEAD on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 04:22:02 PM EST
I guess I tire of investigations and reports where no one is every prosecuted for their actions. I don't want a truth and reconciliation commission. I want an international tribunal for war crimes.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes
by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 04:57:13 PM EST
Booman, they murdered a man by turning his legs into mush.  We've known about that for years.  It was all spelled out for us in this 2005 NY Times article:

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face.

"Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!"

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time. [...]

In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning.

We knew about this and no one did anything.  Or I should say they effectively did nothing:

Of 27 soldiers and officers against whom Army investigators had recommended criminal charges, 15 have been prosecuted. Five of those have pleaded guilty to assault and other crimes; the stiffest punishment any of them have received has been five months in a military prison. Only one soldier has been convicted at trial; he was not imprisoned at all.

Naturally no one high up on the food chain was charged with anything.  One Captain was charged.  The military judge in his case dismissed the charges. They all claimed that "No one knew what the rules were" when Bush ordered the "gloves taken off" and claimed the Geneva Conventions against prisoner abuse and torture didn't apply.  

So we've known for a long time heinous things have been done, horrible things inflicted upon mostly innocent people.  Children were raped at Abu Ghraib for God's sake.  Sodomized in front of other prisoners.  And they took pictures and video to remember there "good times" in Iraq.  We've known that brutal, nasty, shit was done to the prisoners we extraordinarily renditioned to Syria and Egypt.

We may never know everything, but we knew enough.  Enough to know that what was being done under the authority of President Bush and his administration was inexcusable conduct for any nation, much less one that claims the moral high ground in its dealings with other countries.  We knew what was being done was immoral as well as illegal.  It was brutal.  It was despicable.  It is shameful.  It constitutes war crimes for which high ranking officials, including our former President and Vice President, should stand trial before an international tribunal.  This further evidence of genital mutilation should surprise no one.  It's simply more of the same.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 05:38:33 PM EST
Get em Mr. Steven D.
You have it exactly right. All this has been known for long enough that there is no excuse at all to not have prosecutions already in progress.
The longer the delay, the greater the shame.
This is not going away, ever.
History is already written.

The difference between theists and atheists is that the atheists don't set the theists on fire for refusing to agree with them.
by KNUCKLEHEAD on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 05:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One thing I like about Leahy's approach: he apparently is emphasizing the need to investigate and make a full accounting, rather than the need to prosecute.

This is not to say that prosecutions may not happen down the road; but by seeking merely to investigate at the outset, Leahy enhances the prospect that later prosecutions will not be considered partisan payback.

by gideon on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 03:48:17 PM EST
I still have my doubt that hearings would come to anything more than they did when investigating 911....

...some Media headlines, maybe a big-ass book, and then fade into the sunset.

Too many high-ranking members of both houses of Congress has fingers in the Bush-Cheney pie--either actively working for it, or passively greasing the wheels.  A Truth & Reconciliation Commission has too big a chance of revealing details of this, and damaging or ruining more Congressional careers than the Page Scandals of 20 years ago.

It's going to take a populist uprising to light the fires under the right asses--only fear of recall or homestate prosecution may stir some of these Congress-critters to do what their constituents demand.

You know what needs doing---let's start on it and let the chips fall where they may...

"The invisible hand of Adam Smith seems to offer an extended middle finger to an awful lot of people"---George Carlin

by justadood on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 04:26:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where the hell was Leahy last year? I have no confidence in Congress on this issue and I suspect that their investigation will only create legal protections for criminals. Holder needs to investigate.
by rootless2 (sansracine_at_yahoo_dot_fr) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 03:51:08 PM EST
There must be investigations and, if necessary, trials for those criminal administrators no matter how high up they were. The nation's honor is at stake and our very culture is in the docket.  If our democracy is to be preserved, we must act now.

Suppose you scrub your ethical skin until it shines, but inside there is no music, then what? Kabir
by Dongi 2 on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 04:29:43 PM EST
and I don't want the "I was just following orders" defense to stand, either!!

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes
by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 04:57:32 PM EST
And, in answer to your specific question. No. We never heard that reported/acknowledged here, to my knowledge. But then, given how the CIA controls the media, that's no surprise.

"If you look for the social economic motive, you will not have to wait for history to tell you what was propaganda and what was truth." - George Seldes
by Real History Lisa (lpeaseRemoveThis@gte.net) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 04:58:23 PM EST
Why do people keep thinking there will be 'investigations' and 'trials' OF ANYBODY?

There will be no such thing. Presidents do NOT give up power.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/obama-administr.html

New boss, same as the old boss.

We are SOOOOO fucked.

nalbar

by nalbar (nalbarsatgmaildotcom) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 05:01:32 PM EST
So what's stopping someone at the International Criminal Court from filing charges? It's blatantly obvious that we can't take care of our own, so  it's up to the rest of the world to do it for us.


Recommended by Hideo Kojima
by robertdsc on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 05:53:14 PM EST
What's stopping them?

HMMMMM... Let me think .....

Could it be THIS??;

http://current.com/items/89187641/2008_world_military_expenditure_1_473_trillion.htm

AND we are not afraid to use it! (even if it drives us into bankruptcy).

The whole world will eventually hate us, and will do anything to bring us down.

nalbar

by nalbar (nalbarsatgmaildotcom) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 06:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the USA with a military that dwarfs the next nine put together. Kraft macht Recht.
by The Voice In The Wilderness on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 06:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kraft macht Recht.

Might Makes Right?


Recommended by Hideo Kojima
by robertdsc on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 09:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Might Makes Right?

Right! Hope you didn't mind the little twist of using my High school German.

by The Voice In The Wilderness on Tue Feb 10th, 2009 at 08:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by opit (opit@operamail.com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 at 09:04:47 PM EST


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