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Something to Think About on July 4th

by BooMan
Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 09:56:09 AM EST

The New York Times reports that Iran is obtaining false confessions of treason by utilizing ~~torture~~ enhanced interrogation techniques on reformers they have in custody.

The government has made it a practice to publicize confessions from political prisoners held without charge or legal representation, often subjected to pressure tactics like sleep deprivation, solitary confinement and torture, according to human rights groups and former political prisoners. Human rights groups estimate that hundreds of people have been detained.
They fear the confessions are part of a concerted effort to lay the groundwork for banning existing reformist political parties and preventing any organized reform movement in the future. “They hope with this scenario they can expunge them completely from the political process,” said Hadi Ghaemi, coordinator of International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran, a New York-based group. “They don’t want them to come back as part of a political party.”

Cheney and Rumsfeld were definitely a bit more subtle, but they didn't shy away from using these techniques on at least two American citizens. They also thought they could prevent the opposition party from coming back, although their approach was indirect. Wouldn't it be nice if we had any ground to stand on in protesting Iran's behavior?

Something to think about on this Independence Day.

Something to Think About on July 4th | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

It would be wonderful, indeed, BooMan but, alas, I think what we are witnessing in Iran (and have witnessed in the case of the USA) are desperate attempts to maintain power and control at the expense of the public welfare.

God grant that the Iranians fail at creating a monolithic state as did the neocons here in our own country. Come to think of it this is a great Fourth of July when the bells of freedom are ringing louder than they have in the past eight years.

Viva Obama! Viva America!

Suppose you scrub your ethical skin until it shines, but inside there is no music, then what? Kabir

by Dongi 2 on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 10:05:37 AM EST

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

The US can't do a thing about Iran, and it's not because we were torturing people during the Chimperor's years. America's tortured (ahem) history with Iran goes back past the time when we got Mossadeq kicked out of office and installed the Shah. We have no diplomatic ties, no economic clout, no meaningful sanctions to impose, and anything the US government tries to do to help those fighting for basic human rights in Iran will backfire, big time. Not that Obama is crazy enough to try anything.

The American people are another story, and it's been gratifying to see the support the Iranians in the streets have gotten from the American people, when they know what is going on. Unfortunately the news networks have decided that Iran is anywhere from a non-story to less important than news about Michael Jackson's will, so most of the people in the US probably think the protests are over and the protesters failed (if they think of it at all). Neither is the case.

I for one welcome our new Twitter overlords. @Omir55

by Omir the Storyteller (omir.the.storyteller -CAT- gmail -DOG- com) on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 12:19:31 PM EST

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

I agree with you completely.

by BooMan on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 01:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

I had a brief discussion on Twitter last week with someone who was convinced that the US was massing troops on the Iranian border and getting ready to invade. I tried to convince them that (1) US troops were stretched too thin to do any such thing, and (2) unlike Cheney, Obama is not batshit insane enough to try. These efforts fell on the cybernetic equivalent of deaf ears; my correspondent was convinced that Obama served the same masters as Bush did. To an extent they have a point (Wall Street is still running the economy), but not in a military sense. The "Bomb, Bomb Iran" crowd no longer has the ear of the C-in-C. (And we should all be thankful John McCain didn't get elected.)

I for one welcome our new Twitter overlords. @Omir55

by Omir the Storyteller (omir.the.storyteller -CAT- gmail -DOG- com) on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 05:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

NYT calls Iranian torture "torture" (none / 1)

Glenn Greenwald's blog

Virtually every tactic which the article describes the Iranians as using has been used by the U.S. during the War on Terror, while several tactics authorized by Bush officials (waterboarding, placing detainees in coffin-like boxes, hypothermia) aren't among those the article claims are used by the Iranians. Nonetheless, "torture" appears to be a perfectly fine term for The New York Times to use to describe what the Iranians do, but one that is explicitly banned to describe what the U.S. did. Despite its claimed policy, the NYT has also recently demonstrated its eagerness to use the word "torture" to describe these same tactics . . . when used by the Chinese against an American detainee.
Notably, the NYT article today seems to take particular offense that the Iranian Government is putting people on trial using confessions they obtained via torture ("the government planned to put on trial several Iranian employees of the British Embassy -- after confessions were extracted").

by Alexander on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 12:32:04 PM EST

Re: NYT calls Iranian torture "torture" (none / 0)

Here's something interesting I found in a comment on Greenwald's post:

The official U.S. broadcaster of news and information to foreign audiences is the Voice Of America, part of the U.S. government's International Broadcasting Bureau. It is prohibited by law from broadcasting its signal to domestic U.S. listeners as this would be considered government-sponsored propaganda operations.* [...]
When the VOA broadcasts news stories regarding allegations of U.S. torture, the VOA uses the term "torture". [...]
One would hope that presumably independent and private / non-profit institutions such as the New York Times and NPR might have the sort of journalistic integrity shown toward the fair application of the term "torture" to both foreign government-alleged and U.S.-alleged torture as the U.S. government's own broadcaster itself.
If the New York Times and NPR cannot manage to be as gutsy and independent as the official U.S.-government broadcaster, perhaps they could hire the U.S. government broadcasting agency, the IBB, to teach them about the basics of journalism again.

This is a good example of how private as opposed to public ownership and control of the press do not necessarily lead to greater journalistic objectivity and independence. We already knew that of course, but it's good to have an example of how it can actually work the other way around.

by Alexander on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 12:45:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

Cheney and Rumsfeld were definitely a bit more subtle, but they didn't shy away from using these techniques on at least two American citizens.

This brings up a curious thing that seems to be creeping into liberal/left discussion. Why Cheney and Rumsfeld and not Bush? Seems like there's some kind of subtle impulse to leave Bush, without whom none of this would have happened, at the margins of the responsibility list. What's that about?

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 03:13:53 PM EST

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

Mainly two things.

The Boy President delegated the dirty work and he didn't dream all this crap up on his own. Better advisors with a moral compass, different result.

And, it is much easier to go after underlings politically than a former president.

Bush is totally responsible, but I aim where the vulnerabilities are.

by BooMan on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 03:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Something to Think About on July 4th (none / 0)

Well I think the cumulative effect is to spread a meme that somehow mitigates his guilt and the damage he has done. Re advisors, you've got the cart before the horse: given who he is he couldn't possibly have had better advisors any more than a ripening corpse could attract tooth fairies instead of maggots. At the levels he reached, idiocy is absolutely no excuse. He belongs in the pen at least as much as Cheney, Rumsfeld, and a whole bunch of others. We might want to make sure we don't suggest otherwise.

FDR's response to progressive demands: "I agree. Now go out and make me do it."

by DaveW on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 at 06:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Something to Think About on July 4th | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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